Well Ive finally began pushing my fiero past anything else ive done. Oversteer I believe its call is what im interested in.

I took it out for a spin showing a friend how much fun my fiero is, we have like 1 turn in the whole area thats fun. It is a slight bend turn that is slightly banked, i took it around 85 which is when I noticed the feeling of the car not turning as sharply as I was turning the wheel. Is that oversteer Im feeling? It held the turn just fine but if It was any sharper it seemed like it wouldnt of turned enough. I downshifted it and kept the rpms up during the turn and held the throttle, making sure not to let off. My fiero is a 85 with pretty updated suspension with ST springs and ecotec powered . I do have some toe out still in the front which im working on, but does that increase the feel of oversteer or am I completely off on the oversteer feeling? Either way It was fun

What you were feeling is understeer.

Oversteer is akin to Powersliding, Drifting, or the tail coming out from behind.

So does that mean I am reaching the limits of the car? I know when I would push my cavailer that was slightly modded, the tires would scream and the body would roll to the point that it was just plain scary to go faster. This wasnt 1/2 as intimidating as pushing the cavailer to the max. Not sure if thats a good thing or not tho!

quote Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98: So does that mean I am reaching the limits of the car? I know when I would push my cavailer that was slightly modded, the tires would scream and the body would roll to the point that it was just plain scary to go faster. This wasnt 1/2 as intimidating as pushing the cavailer to the max. Not sure if thats a good thing or not tho!

Ok. You may not be reachign the limits of your suspension, but you are reaching the limits of your tires. Tires can only do 100% of one thing at a time. If you are accelerating as fast as you can, and then try to turn, you are demanding to much from your tires. The same thing goes for turning. If you are going to fast into a corner, the tires are 100% loaded, so if you try to turn, that is when the understeer/oversteer happens.

Plus, with mid engine cars, all the weight is at the back of the car, which is the last part of the car to turn. With any MR car, weight shift in the back of the car will produce an oversteer condition. If you drive a Mark 1 MR2, you can oversteer so easily in them, which can be alot of fun.

Most commuter cars are setup as FWD because that is the easiest to drive. If you are going tool fast into a corner and let off the gas in a FWD car, the tires will get more traction and turn more, since most of the weight is in the front. If you were to do the same thing in a MR car, it can snap on you quick.

------------------
It'll run... Getting Closer
2.8 Parts for sale soon.

Lets see, if your passenger is scared its oversteer. If you're scared its understeer. Or is it the other way around?

When the car doesn't want to turn anymore, that's understeer, or "push" in Nascar terms. You'll go off the road front first.

Or if it breaks lose, and you spin, its oversteer. You'll go off the road back end first. Fieros are also susceptible to "drop-throttle oversteer," meaning if you're going too fast into a turn and panic by lifting off the gas, the weight shift from this will cause the back end to unload and the front to grab (oversteer), and you will go around and around. Porsches do this too because of the same weight bias. Many early models had rear end damage, not front end, from oversteering and spinning backwards off the road.

Fieros and most cars are designed with some understeer in them, regardless of the weight distribution. Its safer for most people: The car usually goes where they want without any drama. I put a rear sway bar on my GT to reduce understeer and make it handle "better." 87's have narrower tires in front, probably to reduce steering effort at low speeds, but that also adds to understeer. You don't want to go too wide, or straight line steering could be affected by "tramlining" or the car following grooves cut in the road for water dispersion.

Another poster mentioned power slides. If you keep the revs up, and are in the right gear, you can use the power of the engine to break loose the rear end and bring it around in corners. Only try this at a track. Or you may go off the road backwards (see oversteer, above). If readers here can afford it, try a "Driver education" day at a track to learn all this stuff.

when the front is sliding, you want to lower your throttle some, not stand on it more. this shifts weight to the front.
when the rear is sliding, you want to give it a little more throttle - this will shift the weight to the rear

and - dont push ANY car to it limits on a public street. that is 100% pointless. in order to use the car to its fullest, you also need to use the pavement to its fullest - which means using ALL the lanes available - and traffic does not allow this. if you need to maintain a lane - you cant follow a good line for corner entry & corner exit.

but, I fully understand the fun of making passengers crap themselves.....

but, for good practice try a figure 8 in a parking lot around a pair of lightpoles, pylons, garbage cans, or something like that.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: when the front is sliding, you want to lower your throttle some, not stand on it more. this shifts weight to the front. when the rear is sliding, you want to give it a little more throttle - this will shift the weight to the rear and - dont push ANY car to it limits on a public street. that is 100% pointless. in order to use the car to its fullest, you also need to use the pavement to its fullest - which means using ALL the lanes available - and traffic does not allow this. if you need to maintain a lane - you cant follow a good line for corner entry & corner exit. but, I fully understand the fun of making passengers crap themselves..... but, for good practice try a figure 8 in a parking lot around a pair of lightpoles, pylons, garbage cans, or something like that.

I DON'T recommend the use of lightpoles for the figure 8 exercise, but I do recommend said exercise, just not with large, heavy and relatively immovable objects (lightpoles) for your focal points

I DO however heavily recommend you find a region local to you and go autocrossing (SCCA Solo).

http://www.scca.com/Inside/...reference=greatlakes

I'm in region 64, Columbus (Indiana) Sports Car Club, you can use the map to find one close to you. Most regions have their own websites with Solo schedules on them. Best $25 or so you'll ever spend

quote Fosgatecavy98 said: I do have some toe out still in the front which im working on, but does that increase the feel of oversteer or am I completely off on the oversteer feeling?

Like mentioned above, what you're experiencing is understeer. And yes, the toe-out on the front wheels can cause that. Ideally, the front wheels should be slightly toed in, not out. Once you get your wheel alignment squared away, your car should take the turns better.

quote Originally posted by 85FieroGT3.4: Most commuter cars are setup as FWD because that is the easiest to drive.

No, most cars are FWD these days because that is the only way to package everything into a vehicle which meets CAFE standards. The average driver has no clue which end of the car puts power to the ground, and they don't care, either. Nor do they have a clue what to do when they get in over their head driving too fast in any weather condition. Massive understeer ( heavy car with big V8 up front ) is therefore safer because you regain control when you let off the gas. As for mid/rear-engine cars, even the professionals put these off the road. Just watch any race which has 911 based Porsches running. The problem here is that when you do lose control, you are probably going faster than in a front engine car.

My experience with a variety of street cars has been that if the tires aren't starting to make noise, I can go faster. I did have the distinct pleasure of frightening a car salesman one day in a Fiat X1/9.

We need to be adult about this business of fast driving. Ed Sac and Prythian have given us good advice about when and where to experiment. It isn't a good idea to learn about the limits of adhesion with a passenger in the car on a public road. Can you say "wrongful death lawsuit"?

quote Originally posted by squisher86SE: I DON'T recommend the use of lightpoles for the figure 8 exercise, but I do recommend said exercise, just not with large, heavy and relatively immovable objects (lightpoles) for your focal points

thats part of my Darwin Filter.......

Here's a pretty good explanation of oversteer and understeer...

You said in your post, "I downshifted it and kept the rpms up during the turn and held the throttle, making sure not to let off." If you any where close to the vehicles limit in a corner, you do not want to unsettle the chassis by doing something like changing gears or you may swap ends quickly in a Fiero. Not nearly as bad as old 911s, but the family resemblance is there.

If you really want your car to feel good install a rear swaybar. It will get rid of the vague feeling of, "Is the back of this car really planted on the ground or am I going to die in a wild crash doing 85 mph on the only corner in the area?".

quote Originally posted by ICouldaBeenAV8: You said in your post, "I downshifted it and kept the rpms up during the turn and held the throttle, making sure not to let off." If you any where close to the vehicles limit in a corner, you do not want to unsettle the chassis by doing something like changing gears or you may swap ends quickly in a Fiero. Not nearly as bad as old 911s, but the family resemblance is there.

so true - if you are anywhere near the limit in a curve - you cannot shift. this is why you dont want a autotrans for road racing.

GM dialed a lot of understeer into these cars to keep people from spinning out a suing GM for thier stupidity. Car companiys have to do their best to idiot proof cars.

The Fiero can be more neutral with a rear bar in a 84-87. I have a 1 inch front and 1.25 inch rear bar that yeilds a mostly neutral car. I can induse some over steer and have to watch dor drop trottle oversteer.

Drop thottle oversteer is when the rear wants to step out if you let off the gas in a hard corner. You have to do the oppisite of what you normally want to do and get back on the gas to save it. It is a common problem with many rear and mid engine cars.

Just because the engine is in the back does not make for a perfect handling car. It may achieve higher limits to a degree but it also can be more than than the average driver can extract. Note of late all the wrected Bugatti's, Lambo's and Enzo's.

I have driven many performance cars, many of which I can not afford but have friends who can. As for performance a Fiero has above average limits but is not the most driver friendly car there is. You can do some things to help but it is limited by it's design.

Balance and geometry are more important to a cars handling than anything and many of todays performance cars can achieve very high limits due to todays better computer design and present day technology.

Heck the new upcoming stability control in the new 700 HP Vette that is coming is going to make a car that the average drive into a super driver on a track. But once the limits are reached even a computer will be over matched.

The 1988 Fiero was a great starting point for this car but it was never really developed to where it could have gone. One year was just not enough to see where GM was going with it. While designed by GM it was tuned by Porsche engineering and really could have become a great suspension.

And as stated above FWD was only brought to the masses in the 80's for better CAFE mileage. Too few know this and have bought into the whole bill of sale it has better traction. If that was true TF funny cars would all be FWD. Fore every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. In other words under acceleration the weight is transfered to the rear of the car unloading the front tires.

The truth is FWD is easier to use as it is a point and shoot skill when driving in snow not really much for better traction. A skilled driver in RWD can go anywhere a FWD can go.

Even worse is in a FWD is when you lose traction in a FWD on the front wheels you also lose your steering as well as drive wheels so your just along for the ride. IN RWD you can still steer with the gas pedal and swing the back around. Besides FWD donuts suck.

quote Originally posted by moleman_in_a_FieroGT: Here's a pretty good explanation of oversteer and understeer...

My absolute favorite explanation. :-p

Thanks for the info.

To the few that posted about it: I downshifted before entering the turn to make sure it was in the higher rpm range for the corner, I know better than to shift it thru a corner.

I did practice a bit doing a figure 8 in a large parking lot, I loved it but I was getting more attention than I wanted. Ive brought the toe in some but I dont have a true valve on it. Im taking a supensions course this semster so I can get it aligned and put my rear sway bar on. The tires I have on it are 205 Kumhos, they make absoluetly zero noise around corners, they are pretty new as well. When I burnout they will squeal, so maybe they still have some more traction in them?

Good reading

with the ecotec in the back ,the lower weight causes the back end to sit up a little higher .the lowest corner takes the weight .the front of your car is lower than the back now and this is causing more understeer .you have no way to adjust this now .in your instance ,because the weight is not stock ,i would not bother with a rear sway bar .you need adjustability .get a coilover kit for the rear struts .you can shift your weight properly then .my car has coilovers all the way round and 205 /245 tire combo and is neutral with no snap throttle oversteer problems .i can drift it with heavy throttle if i want to .

This is always a fun discussion. I've managed to spin virtually every car I've owned, with the exception of the Taurus Station Wagon (that would have been awesome). And my Fiero. I've gotten out where I can test its adhesion, but I have significant understeer at this point. Poly in all my bushings and the stock sway bar, lowered all around, and the biggest Culprits? The 225/50s on the 16 rims out back matched to the 195/55s up front on 15 inch rims. I'm about to go 215/50s up front and 225/50s out back when I can scratch up the dough. Though I normally accelerate through turns (and the tires make all kinds of wheeee! noise), the front slides in turns (in parking lots - geez) if I apply the brakes too hard. I mean, I know its to be expected - but in wet weather it's pretty bad. I'm not certain I need the rear sway bar just yet.

------------------
John DuRette
Custom 85 SE/86 GT
"Kinda makes you nostalgic for a Members Only jacket"

MY Fiero has pretty bad understeer as well. Last autocross I did I ran 196/60R14 tires up front and 215/60R14 tires in the rear. No matter what I did, I could not get the back end to come out on the 360º corner we had to do, all it would do is go straighter, so I had to hold the throttle steady untill the end of the corner. I am pretty sure it is my springs causing it. I have a Quad 4 HO, so my rear end is about the same weight, if not less than the stock duke. But my Fiero is a 1986 Base coupe, with the stock front sway bar, 2 year old sensatrac's all round, but 84 WS6 springs (cut 3/4 of a coil) that were the stiffest offered in 1984 according to the code, and stock 86 springs in the front which are the 2nd softest offered in 1986 according to the code, and also, the front sits lower with my unmodified springs in the front than my cut 84 springs in the back, and also my front sits about 1" lower up front than my dad with 84 WS6 springs in the front that are cut 1 coil I think. I also have stock rubber bushings that are all original with 260,000KM on them (with the exception of the front upper bushings, which are 2 years old and also rubber).

------------------

84 Fiero Sport Coupe #1192 :: 86 Fiero Base Coupe Quad 4 HO :: 1998 Dodge Neon EX 2Dr 2.0L DOHC Auto

I have found that with matched tire size (225/50/15) on all four corners, poly bushings everywhere and otherwise stock suspension it seems to handle very neutrally for me on the AutoX course. More throttle in a corner makes for understeer, and if I need to step the back end out I can snap the throttle closed for a split second.

Maybe I'm not pushing hard enough, and there have been a couple of times where I almost didn't get back into it fast enough. Just easing back on the throttle a little (without snapping it all the way closed) can also help the front tires bite. Keep in mind this is all relatively low speeds (middle to upper range of 2nd gear).

Most courses at the track in my region tends to have at least one nice sweeper after a slalom. It's a LOT of fun to be able to take that one flat out I could NEVER do that in my Cavalier. Open differential, FWD and 200 HP makes for traction issues. Another thing I have found, if you drive a Fiero in the AutoX like a FWD, it feels largely the same, except the ability to get on the throttle in the middle of the turn instead of having to wait until you're all the way out of it.

quote Originally posted by befarrer: MY Fiero has pretty bad understeer as well. Last autocross I did I ran 196/60R14 tires up front and 215/60R14 tires in the rear. No matter what I did, I could not get the back end to come out on the 360º corner we had to do, all it would do is go straighter, so I had to hold the throttle steady untill the end of the corner. I am pretty sure it is my springs causing it. I have a Quad 4 HO, so my rear end is about the same weight, if not less than the stock duke. But my Fiero is a 1986 Base coupe, with the stock front sway bar, 2 year old sensatrac's all round, but 84 WS6 springs (cut 3/4 of a coil) that were the stiffest offered in 1984 according to the code, and stock 86 springs in the front which are the 2nd softest offered in 1986 according to the code, and also, the front sits lower with my unmodified springs in the front than my cut 84 springs in the back, and also my front sits about 1" lower up front than my dad with 84 WS6 springs in the front that are cut 1 coil I think. I also have stock rubber bushings that are all original with 260,000KM on them (with the exception of the front upper bushings, which are 2 years old and also rubber).

I think you need a rear sway bar. It'll get rid of that understeer.

Once you have front & rear sway bars, you'll be able to fine-tune the oversteer vs understeer equation by tweaking the endlinks.