Can anyone give me their professional opinion on brake conversions using off the shelf parts? I have a 1986 SE that needs brakes and I don't want to mess it up.
Thanks for your input.

None are truly "off the shelf" parts from begining to end result.

Are you looking to do the Beretta brakes? They seem to ME, to be the easiest.

Of courst I just can;t learn & am doing the Corvette brakes.

Tell us what you want & someone will answer.

That is why I love this place.

John

i do road racing from time to time with my 86 gt. the stock brakes did not cut it because they faded way too bad. i then tried racing pads with drilled and slotted rotors with better brake fluid with no improvement. now i have the grand am / beretta brakes all the way around with stainless steel brake lines, and the blazer master cylinder. i hope this year when i go to mid ohio i will have my brake problems solved. i will be going there on the 21st of this month so i can give an update. but so far the grand am brakes are much much better. also the grand am upgrade to me was fairly cheap.

I was wondering about the "S10 or Camaro" rotors and calipers. I bought a new set of Grand Am rotors and Calipers, but I have read about the "math" and was starting to second guess this setup. I don't mind doing a little modification, but not a tremendous amount of it.
Thanks for helping me out, this subject doesn't get to many looks in the technical discussions.

An easy way to make the brakes much better is to simply put slotted rotors on the front, Portafield RS-4 pads all around, steel lines and use high temp fluid. Made a huge dif on my 86 GT, no more fade! The cost is not that bad either.

A lot depends on what kind of driving your Fiero is going to see. What works good on the track isn't much good on the street and vice-versa...

Francis T is right about slotted rotors. Drilled solid rotors really help keep the rotor cool, but do not allow the gas that builds between the rotor and pad to escape. I would think sloting and cross drilling is best. Porterfield Kevlar/ carbon fiber pads work great and have very little dust, rims stay alot cleaner. Also very easy on the rotors. Very important to break them in properly!
ken

quote Originally posted by majesticpools: I was wondering about the "S10 or Camaro" rotors and calipers. I bought a new set of Grand Am rotors and Calipers, but I have read about the "math" and was starting to second guess this setup. I don't mind doing a little modification, but not a tremendous amount of it. Thanks for helping me out, this subject doesn't get to many looks in the technical discussions.

I did just Grand Am brakes up front - and yes - I have way to much front braking. I wanted to keep the handbrake, so I couldn't do GrandAm rears. tho, I can imagine that would work great. so, I am in the process of rounding up parts for the LeBaron 10-1/4 vented rotors with caddillac calipers - being the caddy calipers have provisions for handbrake

I have Grand Ams all way round. Real hard pedal, no fade, and stops real quick. I'm not too sure about the real performance difference to go to the Lebaron rotors. It might show up on competition but on the street I don't think so.

I also am going to Cadillac calipers for the ebrake. I'll be fabricating the conversion over the winter and posting pics.

Arn

I recently drove a Fiero with Grand Am up front and Fiero on the rear. The brakes SUCKED. IMHO

[This message has been edited by Arns85GT (edited 10-09-2006).]

Thanks for the input, What is involved in the caddy rears conversion?

My opinion on brakes for Fieros is this: try to keep them balanced all the way around. Due to weight balance or some other reason, Fieros don't brake all the way on the front, so to keep control and to balance the braking all the way around, try going for the same size and structure rotors/calipers all the way around.

I have Cavalier Z24 brakes on the front of my '86. Personally, I think it brakes way too much on the front, it needs something in the rear other than the stock solid-rotor brakes. But, I want to keep my e-brake, and I don't know what I could get that would increase the rear braking while keeping the e-brake.

I love the stock brakes on my '88 GT. They're ventilated all the way around, same size all around too I think. I've driven the car hard and its difficult to get the brakes to fade. The car is also very stable under hard braking, unlike the '86.

I made the mistake of thinking that all I needed to upgrade were the front brakes. The rears need attention too. Something about having more weight in the rear of the car makes it necessary for good rear brakes.

quote Originally posted by Tinton: I love the stock brakes on my '88 GT. They're ventilated all the way around, same size all around too I think. I've driven the car hard and its difficult to get the brakes to fade.

Yes the 88 brakes are the same all the way around. The rotors are identical front to rear, since the hubs are not in the front rotors. The calipers are larger due to the vented rotors and can easily be upgrade to 12 inch corvette rotors. For that reason alone I prefer an 88 over any year.

Cross drilled rotors are for show ONLY. I'll believe they help when you shop me any pro racing that doesn't use solid rotors. Any help they do give you are giving up a lot of strength in exchange. Runnin cross drilled's really hard can crack them.

Changing your brakes is not a simple matter. You are negating many years of engineering experience and testing. Safety is at stake here. Yours, your families, and the public. Not just a bolt on matter.
Check out Ogre's Cave. He has some valuable insight. In case your not aware, he has a link at the top of every Pennocks Forum page.

Check out Will's thread on the "Improvement on the 11 1/4" brakes" for some insight. Sorry I don't know how to add the link for it. Just look in this section. Or do a search for Lebaron brakes.

quote Originally posted by rjblaze: Check out Will's thread on the "Improvement on the 11 1/4" brakes" for some insight. Sorry I don't know how to add the link for it. Just look in this section. Or do a search for Lebaron brakes.

Linky

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Changing your brakes is not a simple matter. You are negating many years of engineering experience and testing. Safety is at stake here.

I don't disagree, but there has been a lot of developments in brakes in the 20 years or so since the Fiero. By today's standards the 84-87 brakes are pretty pathetic. The 88 are marginally better.

I know when I go on travel and get in a rental (ie new) car I almost launch my passengers into the windshield when I touch the brakes because the brakes are so much better than what I am used to.

I think I am going to try the GA conversion all around and see what that "feels" like. If it don't work well, I will look further. I plan on a 3.4 engine in the very near future but stopping is more important than going right now. Thanks for the help.

For the effort and cash outlay it is very hard to find fault with the GrandAm upgrade. Be sure to use the stainless brake lines and the Blazer master cylinder. I did this to my 86 SE in Feb of 06 and have put 20,000 miles on the car this summer with absolutely no problems and superb performance under hard conditions (drive it like you stole it). Unless you are planning on adding a lot more contact patch on the road, you will not be disappointed.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I don't disagree, but there has been a lot of developments in brakes in the 20 years or so since the Fiero. By today's standards the 84-87 brakes are pretty pathetic. The 88 are marginally better. I know when I go on travel and get in a rental (ie new) car I almost launch my passengers into the windshield when I touch the brakes because the brakes are so much better than what I am used to.

Hell, they are mediocre by 80's standards!

I've been looking into the Vette C5r break upgrade offered by http://www.design1systems.com/ I don't think the site has been updated.NOTE: No e-break, this is the only reason why I'm still thinking about it. If I'm not mistaken MC has them on #15.
I have attached the email I got from Kevin a few days ago.


From: Kevin Leslie [mailto:kevin.leslie@design1systems.com]
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 9:49 PM
To: David Mancheno
Subject: 1988 Fiero brake system

David,
Sorry for the delay. I misplaced the notes from our phone conversation about the brake kit. The base kit(C5 Corvette Z-06) for the 1988 Fiero is $2600.00. This includes all the brackets, calipers, rotors, brake lines and hardware to make the conversion. If you want 13" brakes in the rear then add $300.00. If you want drilled and slotted rotors on all four corners then add another $300.00. These prices are F.O.B. Oklahoma City, OK.

Thank you for your interest.

Kevin Leslie
Design 1 Systems
405-733-5505


PS
Cross drilled rotors are for show. Ferrari sell their cars w/ cross drilled, but races them w/ solid rotors. I believe GM uses solid rotors with the C5r & C6r in Lemans.

[This message has been edited by dmancheno (edited 10-12-2006).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I know when I go on travel and get in a rental (ie new) car I almost launch my passengers into the windshield when I touch the brakes because the brakes are so much better than what I am used to.

Power brake boost has nothing to do with how good the brakes are. Fieros are not boosted as much as some cars. Try disconnecting the vacuum line on the booster of that rental, and then see how hard you have to push the pedal to get it to stop.

ps. Do it in an empty parking lot!

[This message has been edited by pswayne (edited 12-15-2006).]

quote Originally posted by pswayne: Power brake boost has nothing to do with how good the brakes are.

The brake booster is an integral part of the overall system, so it is illogical to say that boost has nothing to do with how good the brakes are. A bigger booster on the Fiero wouldn't help much because of the crappy calipers and solid rotors. The newer cars are able to use more boost because the brake systems are overall better.

The bottom line is that any ole new crapy rental car will stop way better compared to a Fiero.

Ths is is a late response, but I recently did the LeBaron brake upgrade, and I LOVE it. I had stock sized cross drilled/slotted rotors and Porterfiled pads, and that combo felt better than stock, but the LeBaron upgrade...

WOW!

Has anyone checked the stopping of stock compared to the Grand Am upgrade? Or do you just think you stop faster?

I'm pretty interested in this thread too. I posted my own after looking into different brake swaps, and then seeing The Ogre's analysis which scared the CRAP out of me. Yeah, these swaps weren't rigorously tested on Fieros by professional engineers, but they can't be all that bad can they? Especially if you consider that most of us still have stock 84-87 brakes, probably with more worn components than we'd feel safe knowing about...

Folks:

WCF has most of the proven brake swaps here: http://www.westcoastfiero.com/brakes/brakes_13.html

I have the Vette/Viper hybrids on mine here: http://www.fieroswest.org/LatestProjectsatWestCoastFiero.html They are awesome!!!!

Regards,

David

[This message has been edited by D2Turbo3.4DOHC (edited 12-18-2006).]

When I did my kitcar, I just totally rebuilt the stock brakes from ground up. I thought they were fine myself, although maybe not on a track. I did a lot of fast driving, and I prefer a hard pedal to prevent early lockup. I never even considered doing any mods, they were much better than the OEM ones on my 88 Corvette which is also totally rebuilt. Pad choice is the only thing Id play with. For the street, slotted, drilled etc are just for show. I easily got 75K+ miles on brake pads on every car Ive owned.

quote Originally posted by Plastic Man: Has anyone checked the stopping of stock compared to the Grand Am upgrade? Or do you just think you stop faster?

stock & grand-am use the same size rotors. the stock pistons are slightly smaller than grand am. the grand am disc are vented.

while its not a major increase - the vented disc & the larger bore piston make for added braking force, esepcially for high-speed braking
but - this is only with all four corner with grand am brakes. if you just do the fronts - then the front over power the rear, and you get font lock up way to early, and braking distance increases

There are alot of opinions on the subject, but this is one that matters. When I get work done on my brakes, I bear in mind my Insurance. If (God forbid) I get into an accident where stopping is an issue, one question an adjuster will ask is, "how long since your brakes were serviced" and "by whom". Insurance adjusters don't much respect home brake jobs.

I have Grand Ams all way round, done by a professional. They work great. The reason is that the components are designed to stop a vehicle that dresses out at 3600 lbs. That is almost 50% heavier than a Fiero. If I was planning on going 120 mph+ I'd consider the Lebaron or Corvette conversion and H rated tires. As it sits, the Grand Am conversion is more than adequate for the car in a street environment.

Also, you have wheels to consider. While testing my prototype for a rear ebrake, I was able to determine that the Grand Am/Caddy ebrake is unlikely to work on the 14" alloy wheel. I'm getting some help on the design so the the jury is still out on that one and we're trying to make it work for the stock turbo wheel guys.

For sure though, a larger diameter rotor will likely mean new wheels to work with the bigger rotor. What I'm doing, I'm consulting with a GM Mechanic, and a retired Engineer. All things considered it should be safe when it is done in the spring.

For the average driver, I would highly recommend the Grand Am conversion.

Just my .02

Arn

Just wondering if anyone has step by step info on the specific brake conversions out there. I'm looking at all options so Grand Am, LeBaron and Corvette step by step info would be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Sean

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2006 Cobalt SS Supercharged
1986 Fiero GT 2.8L 4 speed

www.purevolume.com/seanrainey

PM sent

quote Originally posted by anthony_86gt: i do road racing from time to time with my 86 gt. the stock brakes did not cut it because they faded way too bad. i then tried racing pads with drilled and slotted rotors with better brake fluid with no improvement. now i have the grand am / beretta brakes all the way around with stainless steel brake lines, and the blazer master cylinder. i hope this year when i go to mid ohio i will have my brake problems solved. i will be going there on the 21st of this month so i can give an update. but so far the grand am brakes are much much better. also the grand am upgrade to me was fairly cheap.

For 84-86 street use, I think the Beretta/GA will be adequate.

For road-racing, I would consider using the LeBaron rotors and adapters with the Wilwood GM Metric calipers. The Wilwood calipers weigh less than 3 lbs. each.

For purposes of reference, there are two types of Wilwood calipers. If my reading of the measurements on the drawings are correct, the calipers in the first link below are the metric calipers.

The Wilwood calipers can be seen here (metric is first in order):
http://www.wilwood.com/Prod...rs/025-GMM/index.asp
and
http://www.wilwood.com/Prod...rs/024-GM3/index.asp

The stock GM calipers that are used with the LeBaron set up are pretty heavy, so the Wilwood's should help offset the additional weight of the larger rotors and mounting brackets.

For a good photo of mounted Wilwood calipers, see page 3 of cliffw's "Linky" posted above, or go to: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048271.html

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FierOmar

[This message has been edited by FierOmar (edited 10-17-2007).]

I put the Grand Am setup on the rear of my 84, because the old calipers were pretty much shot, and the ebrake cables were rusted into the engine cradle. The increase in performance was extraordinary, but this was going from rear brakes that barely worked (and wouldn't lock up).

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1984 Fiero SE

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: PM sent

Paul, if you were sending the PM to me, I didn't receive anything.

Thanks,

Sean

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2006 Cobalt SS Supercharged
1986 Fiero GT 2.8L 4 speed

www.purevolume.com/seanrainey