I have a 87 Coupe and the paint is good however It has some Clear Coat hazing.

Could anything be done short of an entire paint job?

Could just that area be Clear Coated?



Here is the worst of it.


Thanks
Hager

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1987 L4 Automatic Coupe

Yes, the area that the clear coat is hazing on can be sanded down, and reshot with clear coat, but you'll have to do the entire panel. As I understand it, you can't feather in clear coat like you can with the color coat....the whole panel will need to be sanded and shot with clear.

.....dont mind me......

[This message has been edited by AutoTech (edited 06-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by AutoTech: .....dont mind me......

. . . OK . . . . . .

quote Originally posted by Mr.Chipps: Any more input on the Clear Coat Problem. I really don't want to do the entire panel but if I have to . . . . . Do I really have to???

Sorry to say, pretty much yeah.

Here's a little out of focus shot of the bad clear cast area.
Where there isn't any clear cast it is smooth, and where the clear cast is OK it's smooth. However the transisition area between the two is very rough and kind of loose. If it use say a 600 grit paper can I get rid of that rough transition area, or will the clear coat continue to flake off without sanding smooth? And thoughts or experience in this.

Thanks

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1987 L4 Automatic Coupe

quote Originally posted by AutoTech: .....dont mind me......

... sigh ...

quote Originally posted by litespd: you can't feather in clear coat like you can with the color coat....the whole panel will need to be sanded and shot with clear.

wrong, you can re clear just a section, and then buff the trasition from old clear to the new clear and make it match pretty well. but if your old clear is deteriorated or dull then it wont match and would need the whole panel re sprayed. but it is always best to do the entire panel. and you wont be able to buy a partal clear kit anyway and $170 will buy you a gallon of transtar euro quikclear (what our shop uses) and that is enough to do a entire car so you would have enough to repaint many parts if you wanted. if your clear is bad in that spot then it wont be long before the roof and deck lid start bleading through as well. so it would be best to respray the entire car if you can afford to.
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85 GT, bright blue met. fastback, 18"s, 91' 350 SBC / Muncie 4spd
thread here: <A Class="HTMLBodyLink" HREF="https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/058999.html
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73 VW Karmann Ghia convertible (sold to finish SBC swap)

[This message has been edited by fierogt3800 (edited 06-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by fierogt3800: if your clear is bad in that spot then it wont be long before the roof and deck lid start bleading through as well. so it would be best to respray the entire car if you can afford to.

Yes, I think you are pretty much correct, these spots are just the start and it will spread to the other surfaces sooner rather than later, and it would be a non stop patch work of repairs.
Sounds like I'll just live with it and then at some point repaint the entire car, and be done with it.
Thanks everyone for their input.
Hager

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1987 L4 Automatic Coupe

Simple answer is NO. You cant patch a messed up clearcoat period. Its coming apart because the clear was not applied soon enough to bond to the basecoat. You only see the worst bad part but its all eventually coming off. To repair it correctly, it has to be sanded, RECOLORED BASECOAT then RECLEARED according to that specific brands time period. The only reason to try and get away with patching up clear peeling is if your immediately selling the car. Even if you totally get all the clear off a panel and have an even basecoat left, you cant just put clear over it...period.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Simple answer is NO. You cant patch a messed up clearcoat period. Its coming apart because the clear was not applied soon enough to bond to the basecoat. You only see the worst bad part but its all eventually coming off. To repair it correctly, it has to be sanded, RECOLORED BASECOAT then RECLEARED according to that specific brands time period. The only reason to try and get away with patching up clear peeling is if your immediately selling the car. Even if you totally get all the clear off a panel and have an even basecoat left, you cant just put clear over it...period.

So it looks like the car must be stripped into the base coat to insure removing all of the clear coat, and prevent the new paint from coming off because of the clear coat coming off under the paint.

I painted my old Benz with acryclic enamel and it is still good looking after 17 years. I will not use a clear coat in the future as it has too many negative issues.
Thanks for the additional information.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: . Its coming apart because the clear was not applied soon enough to bond to the basecoat.

you are odviously not a body man. I paint cars for a living. the clear can be applied to the base at ANY time. once clear is mixed with activator ( 2 to 1) it starts the curing process. it creates its own bond.

firther more the issue is not caused from a improperly applied finish. but is from baking in the sun. there are no signs of premature lifting, but rather thining and flaking clear caused from constant exposure to sunlight.

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85 GT, bright blue met. fastback, 18"s, 91' 350 SBC / Muncie 4spd
thread here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/058999.html
85.5 Porsche 944 euro *for sale*
73 VW Karmann Ghia convertible (sold to finish SBC swap)

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Simple answer is NO. You cant patch a messed up clearcoat period. Its coming apart because the clear was not applied soon enough to bond to the basecoat. You only see the worst bad part but its all eventually coming off. To repair it correctly, it has to be sanded, RECOLORED BASECOAT then RECLEARED according to that specific brands time period. The only reason to try and get away with patching up clear peeling is if your immediately selling the car. Even if you totally get all the clear off a panel and have an even basecoat left, you cant just put clear over it...period.

Amen. Proper advise from a long time bodyman and painter. I've even painted a car or two in my time and seem to agree with this wholeheartedly.

Mark

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quote Originally posted by fierogt3800: you are odviously not a body man. I paint cars for a living.

Whatever happened to polite disagreement and discussion. And by the way he is a body man/painter who has EARNED a lot of respect on this forum.

Dave

I could understand saying that its not the best way.. but there are chip shot guys all over the contry that do just patch repairs, and if thats what he wants and dont expect anything that will last any longer then the remaning fair paint on the car then he shouldnt be told what he wants isnt possible if in fact it is.. for example ive had a couple issues when i was just starting out where i color sanded though the clear and base trying to remove a contaminate and had to "touch in" the spot where it burned though, and though it left a dry edge from where the clear stopped I was able to buff the dry edge till it blended to a unnoticable stage. i wasnt meaing to get loud, i just wanted to make it clear to him wanted to do what he was asking was possible, he could.

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85 GT, bright blue met. fastback, 18"s, 91' 350 SBC / Muncie 4spd
thread here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/058999.html
85.5 Porsche 944 euro *for sale*
73 VW Karmann Ghia convertible (sold to finish SBC swap)

quote Originally posted by fierogt3800: for example ive had a couple issues when i was just starting out where i color sanded though the clear and base trying to remove a contaminate and had to "touch in" the spot where it burned though, and though it left a dry edge from where the clear stopped I was able to buff the dry edge till it blended to a unnoticable stage.

Sounds like I might try a spot repair then, and fully understanding it is not a perminate fix then.

quote Originally posted by Mr.Chipps: Sounds like I might try a spot repair then, and fully understanding it is not a perminate fix then.

I just wanted you to know that it is something you can do. but dont ignore what the others have said, it is allways best to do a entire panel to ensure the best quality finish. if you do a decent job preping the panel and make sure that you dont spray your mask line thenyou should have a decent outcome.
and dont just do the area that is visualy in poor condition. its always best to sand past the damaged area and to spray even farther. and if you are doing a small panel or something that has molding between (like the upper half of a door skin) then its best to do the entire section rather then blending old and new you will likely have more material then you will need so if you can do the whole panel do it.. and be sure you spray a sample and compare it to your old finish before you start spraying the actual panel.

[This message has been edited by fierogt3800 (edited 06-20-2006).]

MMM, Im obviously not a paint and body man. Well I started in about 1962, did muraled custom vans for 11 years (3 @ day), painted Aero Commander aircraft in Okla City, owned my own custom / body shop for over 30 years now, do several cars a week for a few dealerships used car departments, built quite a few kitcars, did all the paint and body work at an RV Dealer on class A motorhomes, and so many custom jobs I wouldnt even venture a guess as to the numbers. I also have done a lot of ground up body only restoration jobs one of which ended up a Pebble Beach Concours de' Elegance winner. How about your resume' Mr ' I paint cars for a living '....



The clearcoat problem is called surface delamination. It IS caused by the clear not bonding to the base and nothing else. Sun baked just speeds up the process. Most clear urathanes Ive seen (brand names anyway) usually dont allow clearcoating after 24 hours or so without reapplying a basecoat again. The problem was with earlier base/ clear systems and the way the factory applied them. They are getting better now. You seriously need to talk to some paint reps before you work on anyone elses car. Im always getting cars in here to 'fix' after some other expert has screwed them up. In fact just last week, I had to strip sand and repaint ground effects that some yokel messed up and was falling off. Hes on the forum, brought his car from Minnesota for me to fix. Maybe he will see this and jump in with his .02.

Im sure he wants a presentable looking job. Not saying he cant just spray clear on it, or even use a spray can of clear if he wants. Im talking about doing it correctly, so it lasts.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-20-2006).]

Roger,
If you're referring to me........

I am 150% satisfied with what you did to my Indy! If I could, I'd have you repaint the rest of the car. (That could be a reality after a conversation with my Personnel Manager today!)

BTW.......I'm a resident of South Dakota living in Minnesota; but close enough.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison:

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: MMM, Im obviously not a paint and body man. Well I started in about 1962, did muraled custom vans for 11 years (3 @ day), painted Aero Commander aircraft in Okla City, owned my own custom / body shop for over 30 years now, do several cars a week for a few dealerships used car departments, built quite a few kitcars, did all the paint and body work at an RV Dealer on class A motorhomes, and so many custom jobs I wouldnt even venture a guess as to the numbers. I also have done a lot of ground up body only restoration jobs one of which ended up a Pebble Beach Concours de' Elegance winner. How about your resume' Mr ' I paint cars for a living '.... The clearcoat problem is called surface delamination. It IS caused by the clear not bonding to the base and nothing else. Sun baked just speeds up the process. Most clear urathanes Ive seen (brand names anyway) usually dont allow clearcoating after 24 hours or so without reapplying a basecoat again. The problem was with earlier base/ clear systems and the way the factory applied them. They are getting better now. You seriously need to talk to some paint reps before you work on anyone elses car. Im always getting cars in here to 'fix' after some other expert has screwed them up. In fact just last week, I had to strip sand and repaint ground effects that some yokel messed up and was falling off. Hes on the forum, brought his car from Minnesota for me to fix. Maybe he will see this and jump in with his .02. Im sure he wants a presentable looking job. Not saying he cant just spray clear on it, or even use a spray can of clear if he wants. Im talking about doing it correctly, so it lasts.

after hearing that it sounds like you quite the custom guy. sounds good to me!
but this particular car is a daily driver, he is trying to save some money, blending is not the best method. but thats not what he was asking, he was asking if it could be done as a temperary repair.

now in a custom shop full of show cars, and custom rods, you wouldnt even think about this method. but in a normal body shop, with normal cars (like this one) this can be a quick more affordable solution.

i guess when you can afford fancy downdraft booths, and fresh air masks, the little scratch&ding jobs dont matter. but outside of the custom/restoration world people who are driving their car to and from work and they arent as picky about their $1,000 fiero's finish but still want something presentable.
and thats what this guy is looking for.

now im not claiming that im more knowledgable then you. im just saying that what you told him is not correct. I might not have the fancy custom shop but ive turned out some pretty nice finishes, in our normal wet booth with a $200 desonate filter and $400 compressor. in fact the only high end peice we have is a Digital Sata jet gun.
and sometimes we get people in that want similar repairs done. and we have done them.
nothing against you or your business after hearing a little more about you sound like a respectable guy and i should have left my resourceless oppion to myself untill i knew a little more about you. , Im just trying to make it clear that he can proform this temporary repair if he wants to do so .

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85 GT, bright blue met. fastback, 18"s, 91' 350 SBC / Muncie 4spd
thread here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/058999.html
85.5 Porsche 944 euro *for sale*
73 VW Karmann Ghia convertible (sold to finish SBC swap)

Hummm... I have the same thing. same problem. I tried to go at it with some polishing compound, but that didn't seem to work well and lifted some of the base off. here's the thing. I have an air compressor and a gravity feed spray gun, but I really don't have anything good for a paint booth. What would I be better off trying, removing the hood, sanding it down, respray base and clear coat and hope dust and bugs dont land in it, or should I try to just patch the top of my hood with clear and do my best to keep stuff off the fresh clear. And if I were to patch, what should i use to remove the clear coat, 600 sandpaper as someone mentioned earlier on a block or polishing compound? Also, I've never looked at paint prices before.... how bad are they for something decent?

edit: what's this I hear? *kiss* aww, you two made up

[This message has been edited by 86fierofun (edited 06-21-2006).]

OK. I get it.

If I could take all this effort to the bank, I would have more than enough to get a real paint job on this little Fiero.

Again thank you all, you've all done very well.

Hager

THE END

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1987 L4 Automatic Coupe

[This message has been edited by Mr.Chipps (edited 06-21-2006).]

I take it this is mostly on the hood. Id just take it off, sand all the clear off with 400 grit dry (Firefox uses 360 I believe). Then a coat of primer, whatever kind you prefer. I use laquer Primer Surfacer myself. Resand with 400 and put on enough basecoat to cover evenly, followed by urathane clear following the manufacturers recommendation from the product sheet. A few bugs or bits of dirt is no big deal as you can wetsand them all perfectly smooth with 1000-1500 paper after its dry followed by buffing with rubbing compound. Not very expensive fix if you do it yourself. Some sandpaper, a little primer (get some from a shop, maybe even for free), pint of base and a pint of clear with hardener prob wouldnt cost you $150 total. Even a novice can do a pretty professional looking job if you take your time. An all over GOOD job can run anywhere from $1,000-3,500 these days.(hey gas is $3.00 . Do your spraying in the morning if possible since bugs are minimal and its usually cooler. Dont do it at nite, bugs will go to it like flypaper. Cover stuff you dont want painted and wear a mask.

Back in the '80s GM was "having some quality problems" with paint; there's been many, many improvements in paint chemistry since then. Fieros were the least affected by the GM paint problems - those of us that have been around awhile remember the GM cars and trucks with big rusty spots all over them. The clear would lose it's bond to the base and flake off, then water would penetrate the base and make a big rusty mess.

Our plastic cars don't rust, so we just have the clear coat delamination problem to deal with.

For those who want to just sand off the old clear and put a fresh coat of clear over the old base - yes, it's possible but you will NOT be happy with the results. The bond between the new clear and old base will be largely theoretical; it'll start coming off almost immediately. Ultimately, this only makes a bigger mess than you started with.

A workable repair method has already been explained: reshoot base and clear on entire panels. If you just do the panels that face the sun you can get a few more years before the rest of the old paint fails; if you're only going to keep the car a year or two this may be your best option.

If you want it to look right and last - the only real answer is to repaint the entire car. Yes, it can be expensive. But here's something to think about: it'll cost even more if your painter has to deal with peeling patch jobs.

how much paint would be required to respray the whole car?

quote Originally posted by 86fierofun: how much paint would be required to respray the whole car?

a gallon will cover. you should have enough paint left over for touch ups later.

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85 GT, bright blue met. fastback, 18"s, 91' 350 SBC / Muncie 4spd
thread here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/058999.html
85.5 Porsche 944 euro *for sale*
73 VW Karmann Ghia convertible (sold to finish SBC swap)

quote Originally posted by fierogt3800: a gallon will cover. you should have enough paint left over for touch ups later.

Not necessarily. Depends (like ive said many times) on a lot of parameters. Type of gun, type of paint, experience, type of air compressor.........I can paint almost any newer car with a quart of base color and a quart of clear. I painted my plane with a gallon ( 172 Cessna). In the old days with a siphon gun and acrylic enamel, i did take a qallon to paint any car...they were all huge by todays standards. I did my corvette white pearl with 1 quart and still have touch up.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Not necessarily. Depends (like ive said many times) on a lot of parameters. Type of gun, type of paint, experience, type of air compressor.........I can paint almost any newer car with a quart of base color and a quart of clear. I painted my plane with a gallon ( 172 Cessna). In the old days with a siphon gun and acrylic enamel, i did take a qallon to paint any car...they were all huge by todays standards. I did my corvette white pearl with 1 quart and still have touch up.

Im spraying with a satajet with a 1.4 tip. Ive had some larger cars or even some smaller cars when using a tri color come close to using a entire gallon but ive never ran out. white seems to cover less the any other color. we use two paint systems, both lesonal, and sherwin williams. I perfer lesonal becuase i like the way it sprays. but sherwin williams covers better.

[This message has been edited by fierogt3800 (edited 06-23-2006).]