Hmm. Being this close to current expectations.....I would wait it out until the 6-speed becomes avaliable or look for a Fiero w/a engine swap. Times are tough and sometimes a nice one is for sell.
------------------ Archie's Choptop conversion #11, #15, Redux & The Stealth
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03:18 PM
86fieroEarl Member
Posts: 2203 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2002
A pushrod iron head engine that GM had to slap a SC on to make power OR A dohc that with a turbo pushing the same boost as a stock 3800sc makes 325 wheel hp.
55hp more in a engine that revs 2000 rpm higher... what else would you need to know?
GM did more then just slap a SC on a engine to make power. If you look inside a 3800sc engine, There's a lot of nice things GM did when they built this engine, Like example (cross bolting mains) billet steel crankshaft !!! Even the rockers are designed nice. It's also a lot easier to slap a turbo (expensive) on a 3800sc engine, Since it comes from the factory equiped to handle boosted applications and there are available kits. Im not stating crossbolted mains and a billet steel crankshaft adds power, But it's some of the nice things to have inside a engine that is boosted if you want relability, Adding a turbo to a engine is easy, The trick is building it up to handle boost for extended periods of time.
The ppl running turbos on there 3.4s knows what there doing, There's monitoring boost, fuel ect, Running up to a engine and slapping a turbo on it without knowing what your doing is not a wise choice.
Lets not start the same old pushrod vs dohc thread again
[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 12-23-2005).]
Hmm. Being this close to current expectations.....I would wait it out until the 6-speed becomes avaliable or look for a Fiero w/a engine swap. Times are tough and sometimes a nice one is for sell.
I think the G6 has a 6-speed but it has horrible gear ratios or something, as I remember from speaking to Loyde over the phone. There is a Saab Getrag (287?) that can handle more power than a Fiero Getrag, and its a 5-speed.
Madcurl, you have a northstar in your silver choptop with the gigantic wheels don't you? How much did it cost to get it put in? It sounds like the swap for me . Its only 470 lbs? That's 23 lbs lighter than a 3.4DOHC. Even though its 25 lbs heavier than the 3800SC, it makes about 50 more horsepower without forced induction. Now all I need to know is the price....the 3800SC might be more cost effective?
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04:21 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
Ok, if your basing your decision on 20lbs, you might just wanna go on a diet, lol. Heck, dont forget most liquids weigh about 8lbs a gallon, so you're toting 80lbs more when you fill up than when you're running low, but you never think twice about that. By thier numbers, you'd gain 12hp racing on a low tank. If you could find an option that was 100lbs lighter, that would be a considering point, but 20lbs isnt anything unless you're runnnig straight strip, then Id be more concerned with the 160lbs of doors this car has on it, or the 35lbs of carpet.
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06:50 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Madcurl, you have a northstar in your silver choptop with the gigantic wheels don't you? How much did it cost to get it put in? It sounds like the swap for me . Its only 470 lbs? That's 23 lbs lighter than a 3.4DOHC. Even though its 25 lbs heavier than the 3800SC, it makes about 50 more horsepower without forced induction. Now all I need to know is the price....the 3800SC might be more cost effective?
You've got mail.
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07:06 PM
AaronZ34 Member
Posts: 2322 From: Colorado Springs, CO Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by Tinton:Darth Fiero replied to me and said that the 3400DOHC is actually a pretty weak motor stock and to handle anything over about 4-5 psi boost it needs some modifications, which of course cost money.
He is incorrect here.
No one knows how strong or weak a DOHC is because no one has been able to break one. We do have lower end oiling problems, but we have since found ways to remedy them. And just keeping it below 7000rpm with synthetic oil and your bearings should hold up. TimG currently has the highest HP 3.4 DOHC, it is a BONE STOCK block/heads/cams/intakes with 10psi in it, making 400 crank horsepower. The motor has about 158,000 miles, with no rebuild, and has been boosted for the last 40k.
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11:47 PM
Dec 24th, 2005
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
I've been watching all of the different swaps happening, over the years. Just saving my coin and taking my time, trying to decide which one would be best. And after being here for nearly 6 years, I still haven't made up my mind.
The most workable options for me would probably be a 3.4 DOHC, a 3800, or a 4.9.
I don't care for the complexity (read: cost) of the N* or LS-whatever swaps. If I could run up on a used Archie adaptor and flywheel for a reasonable price, I might consider doing a 4.3, simply because there aren't many of them around, and the few that are seem to work really well.
Some observations I've made, though. A 3800SC seems like it will work a lot better with the automatic tranny that came with it. That motor, through a Getrag, uses up first gear almost immediately. As soon as you hit the gas, you have to shift. It's awfully rough on the Getrag, too. I remember one forum member who did the 3800 swap into a Getrag car. The second launch at the strip scattered the tranny all over the track. Of course that's probably not typical, but it sure made an impression in my memory.
The 3.4 DOHC seems a lot better suited to the Getrag. You have another 1000 or so RPM to play with, and not quite so much bone-crushing (not to mention tranny-shattering) bottom end.
I'm not sure if the 4 speed has such a low first gear. Seems like it's a little taller, so it may be more useful in that regard.
Me? I'll probably do a 4.9. It'll probably suit the kind of driving I do better than the others. It was designed to move a 4500 lb car down the highway with a minimum of effort. That being the case, it will move a 2700 lb car pretty damned quickly.
And I still have my 3.4 pushrod in my other car, that is getting a Getrag for its birthday. I'm having great fun trying to see how much power I can wring out of that. I suspect there's quite a bit more left.
I also did it for my '88 GT, but I haven't had time to do it for a getrag. I know the extra 1000 rpms with the DOHC would make 1st gear a lot more useful. 1st gear, even on the 4-speed, seems very short and I have to shift almost immediately (at least, that's what it feels like). I'll try to talk with Darth Fiero about getting him to do a swap. I think with like 8 psi of boost, which is really do-able, I could put down the hp I want (high 200's). And I think the DOHC will go better with the Fiero's manual transmission, with the extra 1000 rpms and the less low-end torque that kills transmissions.
[This message has been edited by Tinton (edited 12-24-2005).]
Just a couple points i'd like to add into this big debate. First off, I too am like Raydar. I've been looking and experiencing these swaps since i got into Fieros. I've driven and ridden in many Fieros and have experienced all the swaps firsthand. I always felt this was very important as I too wanted to do a swap but wasn't sure which one. I'll stick to comments on the two at hand though. The TDC 3.4; I don't mean any offense to anyone but, after experiencing my good friend Fieromadmans car for so long now, i really doubt people who say this engine isn't reliable. He beats the living crap out of it and, when he lets me drive it, i'm not easy on it either. He drives the thing everyday. Through snow, rain, heat, and speed bumps. It just simply runs excellently and it also gives much better mileage than i see people listing here. I have watched a couple threads about mileage go by where i've noticed the mileage of the average TDC owner is noticably lower than his is. He used the MAF system with sequential injection unlike the majority of people who use the speed density system. He's getting in the low 30s on the highway with all his mods which include cam timing and many other mods as well. Keep in mind that he actually got better mileage before these mods! All i'm trying to say with this point is that there are many variables with mileage in a swapped Fiero to consider as someone else above pointed out earlier in this thread. You have not only different trannies, car weights, tire sizes, and mods but also a change in the injection and computer control that would also effect a TDC's mileage in a Fiero. I also, again not meaning to offend anyone, have seen a few TDC's heavily modded now with stock internals which survive quite easily. I honestly believe this has a lot to do with how the owner takes care of the vehicle. For example; being a 1/2 quart low on oil in your 2.8 hitting 5k at the most occasionally isn't going to be as big a problem as being 1/2 quart low on an engine hitting 7k. GM put an oil cooler on the manual cars and optioned it on the autos for a reason i think. I'd also like to say that, as was also mentioned before, the TDC is just an excellent choice for the Getrag. They work well together. The Getrag has a very low first gear that most of the other engines can't use worth a crap but it becomes very useful with a TDC. Ive even downshifted to first in Fieromadmans car which would blow up my 2.8. Doesn't even make his engine complain. The 3.8 sc; This I agree with others is the wise choice for you if you're going to use an auto tranny. I also think, after driving a 4-speed V6 Fiero recently, that you'd be wise to pick the 3800 for your 4-speed car. The 4-speed isn't the greatest spaced tranny for the TDC IMHO. I've said that many times about the Isuzu as well. The 4-speed is a very strong trans that wont have the ultra low first gear that the Getrag does so I think you'd be better off with the 3800 if you're going to use that trans. I also think you would like the 3800 better. I don't know you personally but, after reading things on the forum you've written, I think you'd be more of a torque/low end kind of guy. I might be wrong but that's the impression I get in which case, the 3800 would be better for you. This is the most important thing to remember though. What's right for you? You have the money to do either one so it really comes down to what you want. you can't base your opinion on what others say either really. Might be different if they knew you in person but none of us do. you should go out and try to experience the engines and see which one you like better. These engines are so different from each oher that it shouldn't be difficult to pick one from the other. Take some time to talk to some owners of Fieros with these swaps too. This is especially good if you can find one who will tell you the good and bad of their swap. The bad is often not talked about by owners and that's some important info that you need to know sometimes. I don't honestly believe either one is more reliable than the other and the mileage is close enough that that's really not a deciding factor either. What you want the engine to do and what you want from the swap is the main thing. Also might want to remember that the 3800 has a lot of aftermarket available to it where as the TDC is more of a do it your selfer engine. I probably didnt help at all but I hope I at least gave you some new things to think about. lol
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[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 12-24-2005).]
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05:17 PM
86GT3.4DOHC Member
Posts: 10007 From: Marion Ohio Registered: Apr 2004
You forget that was the fifth engine ive destroyed, lol.
I can tell you forsure that a 3800SC would never be for you. Seeing how you go thru N/A motors, I would hate to see you on a boosted motor. KR would be your best friend, along with the guy at the yard selling you motors.
All I can say is if you want a swap thats pretty str8 forward for someone with tools, times and the mechanical ability. A swap that gives you enough power to toast 98% of the cars on the road and put down some good 1/4 miles times and get you plenty of WOWs, then the 3800Sc is the way to go. I am just finished my second swap and will be finishing up a 5 speed swap soon after the new year. I have rode in one 3.4 DOHC car and was impressed with the power it had but this was before I rode in a 3800SC car. WIth a turbo on a 3.4 DOHC I am sure the car will be one wild ride and put down some impressive numbers. But to get a turboed 3.4 DOHC, it involves fabrication of seveal parts and some tuning, which isnt to much but it does throw a little more on the fire. Either way you go I am sure you will be happy with the added power to the Fiero. Out of all this, I say go with the 3800SC and see what you think, if you dont like it, sell the setup and do a 3.4 DOHC.
Well the northstar is out. Loyde quoted me $15,000 . I think I might go for the 3.8L SC though, Darth Fiero also replied and it looks like it would take a lot of parts to get 300whp out of it, and practically an engine rebuild...
. Its only 470 lbs? That's 23 lbs lighter than a 3.4DOHC. Even though its 25 lbs heavier than the 3800SC, it makes about 50 more horsepower without forced induction. Now all I need to know is the price....the 3800SC might be more cost effective?
It just simply runs excellently and it also gives much better mileage than i see people listing here. I have watched a couple threads about mileage go by where i've noticed the mileage of the average TDC owner is noticably lower than his is. He used the MAF system with sequential injection unlike the majority of people who use the speed density system. He's getting in the low 30s on the highway with all his mods which include cam timing and many other mods as well. Keep in mind that he actually got better mileage before these mods! All i'm trying to say with this point is that there are many variables with mileage in a swapped Fiero to consider as someone else above pointed out earlier in this thread. You have not only different trannies, car weights, tire sizes, and mods but also a change in the injection and computer control that would also effect a TDC's mileage in a Fiero.
. I think I might go for the 3.8L SC though, Darth Fiero also replied and it looks like it would take a lot of parts to get 300whp out of it, and practically an engine rebuild...
