While reading the Biography "On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors" By John Delorean I stumbled upon the paragraph below. Delorean Was promoted to President of Pontiac and then promoted again to the much larger Chevrolet Division. Soon after resigning from General motors to start his own company he wrote a slightly negative book about GM in which he clearly and factually highlights many of the giant companies good and not so good decisions in which he points out much inner turmoil , corporate greed and squashing many ideas and products do to personal agendas. Below is a quote and what I believe was the beginning of the Fiero idea.

John Delorean
"While I was running Pontiac we put together a sprightly Low-Cost two seater sports car that incorporated the Pontiac overhead cam , six -cylinder engine and a fiberglass body. It was an exciting little car that would have given competition, at the time to the growing number of foreign sports cars, such as the Triumph Spitfire and Austin-Healy Sprite, and later the Fiat 124 and the Datsun 240z. We made our presentation to the engineering Policy Group and it was turned down, I suspect because it would have been a low price competitor to the Chevrolet Corvette which was given corporate exclusivity in the sports car market."

AHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!! I knew the VETTE was the down fall of the fiero !

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HARDCORE SBC FAN AND PROUD OF IT ! GOT TQ ?

sounds like it might be but he doesn't mention mid-engine. i wonder if there was a front engine 2 seater that never made production? interseting find.

I know that Oldsmobile had a two seater sports car that was turned down by GM. I was there and worked on it.

Ed

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Fino
www.edstephens.com
Member National Kit Car Club

john D is talking about 1970 times
clue is the OHC 6
they stoped useing that motor in the early 70s

so no not our car

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 10-10-2005).]

Pontiac overhead cam v6? This sounds like the prototype with the 3.2 DOHC.

In response to Ray's post above, just because it was turned down once in 196x, doesn't mean that it wasn't "re-evaluated" 10-15 years later. IIRC he worked at pontiac from 1960-1969.

If that's the case, the fiero truly was ahead of it's time.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 10-10-2005).]

He is (I'm quite sure) talking about the first Pontiac Banshee prototype (there were 2). I'll try to post a pic if I can find one.

[This message has been edited by He Named Thor (edited 10-10-2005).]

I like them both, although the first was clearly derived from the corvette.

quote Originally posted by He Named Thor: The first Banshee

I had to look that up, and from what I'm reading, that came out in 1964. Now knowing what you know about the era, and muscle cars in general, do you really think they would put a OHC v6 in it?

In Gary Witzenburg's book, it's mentioned that Pontiac tried a few different times to have a 2-seater approved by GM. The one DeLorean had the most input with was the XP-833, later renamed the Banshee. He tried a few times during the 60's to have it approved, but the higher-ups didn't see any profit potential in it. Here's a pic of it:

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 10-10-2005).]

Guess I was wrong -

"1964 Pontiac Banshee Concept Car:
The 3rd generation Corvette was already on the drawing boards, and the Banshee borrowed styling cues from that car. A couple of things that distinguished the Banshee from the Corvette was that the Banshee used a solid rear axle (to keep costs down, and make the car more affordable than the Corvette), and a unique clamshell door design. This was John Delorean's pet project, and he really wanted it in production. Two functional cars were produced (built by an outside coach builder). One was a 6 cylinder engine, the other had a V8. One was a hardtop, the other a roadster. There was even a 4 passenger version that was proposed. But GM wasn't interested in eroding the Corvette's market share, and the top dogs nixed the project."

The Sprint OHC-6 engine was BAD for a straight 6 back in it's day and there were all kinds of performance goodies available for it. I have a Sprint 6 engine in storage in GA right next to a Ram Air III 400. The Sprint 6 came from the factory with 215hp in 1968 and was available in Firebirds, Lemans, and Tempest. I can see where they might have put this in a prototype to offer something different.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 10-10-2005).]

These cars are much more compact than the 68 Vette. I have seen the roadster in person and it was a very basic sports car but would have been a very powerful statment for Pontiac.

The Manta Ray is what the 68 Vette came from and was shown in 1965, the Banshee's were done in 1963 so I am not sure who was really first.

The 4 seat car was to have been shown in I believe in 65 but was pulled by the chairman of GM as it was to have never been built and was never seen again. The two original Banshees were hidden and purchased by employees and save for us today. One is owned by Mr Bortz of Chicago a noted Motorama Colllector and the coupe is owned by the family of the former GM employee. Both are still in great condition.

The cars were created up for a few years and sold lots to get them out of GM.

The Newer Banshee was really a car based on a future Fiero concept for 1993. It was changed to front engine RWD and then adapted to the 4the GEN F body after the GM 80 FWD F body was canceled.

For those who have not read the John D book get it and read it. It is a good scope of why GM has some of the problems they have today. They now have a good group of people running things but they are still cleaning up many of the problems from the 60's-90's.

I often wonder where GM would be If John D was given control.

John was a great car guy but terrible at running things without GOOD PEOPLE in place. Case in point his failed Delorean Motor Car Company that he soaked Ireland for millions in grants and loans. I read his book years ago when I worked for PMD but recently read the unofficial biography and the business failings and crooked deals abounded. John Z. left GM in 73 but was more or less asked to leave due to his inability to conform. We owe him for the muscle car era as the GTO started it all. That car should not have been built according to GM management at the time but John was a maverick and found a loophole to sneek it through. In those days a GM had more control to some extent but still had to answer to the 14th floor.

You either loved the man or hated him and that depended on which side of the fence you were on with his business dealings.

The Fiero idea was floating around in product planning for years and some quick thinking planners sold GM President Bob Stemple, a car guy, on the idea and then the 14th floor as a high mileage commuter car when gas was predicted to hit $3.00 a gallon. A little too soon but now at $3.00 a gallon we have the new 2 seater commuter called the Solstice.

Funny how good ideas get recycled given enough time.

quote Originally posted by GT86:

Looks like an Opel GT. Did GM own them back then?

[This message has been edited by Gokart Mozart (edited 10-11-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Gokart Mozart: Looks like an Opel GT. Did GM own them back then?

i was thinking opel gt, vette, firebird taillights

John was not near as bad at running things in the earlier years as the was at his own company. When he built his car he was blinded to get it out he did thing he would have never done years before like Coke deals. Even though John was an engineer he did well at running Pontiac and like most others your only as good as the people around you. In a company like GM one man can't do it alone.

John and Bunkie K were a great team at GM and Bunkie cover John when he bucked the system in the 60's. Bunkie left for Ford in 1970 and John lost his powerful cover.

John stepped on a lot of toes and broke a lot of stoggie rules at GM as as long as he was making mony and selling cars he could not be touched. Some even planed to move him to the head of GM in the future.

There were many others waiting for him to make a mistake and they would cut him down and they did.

His fall at GM came at GM in the 70's when he was moved to Chevy. He was saddled with the Vega [not one of his cars but Ed Cole's] A strike and a few other problems that left him vunerable with the loss of his mentor Bunkie and they left him to quit of get fired.

One of my mom's uncles was a GM big wig and was of the old school GM. He hated John D long before many knew who he was. He felt he was a rule breaking hippie with is long hair and flashy clothes.

It is sad to say many of todays problems started with the old school people and are still with us today.

Bob Lutz today is a kind of a John D but he does not break as many rules. He has a good feel for what people want with out being a engineer. He also has put many good people around him and we are just now seeing the results of some of his work in the Solstice, HHR and the new 2007 Tahoe/Yukon. Too many at GM want to build cars but forget to make them must have car John And Bob have that trait and if left to do what they best they can have been secessful. The accountants that have run GM have little product ability and it has left us with cars tlike the Cimmeron and Aztec.