I'm tired of hearing the same blah blah from ignorant people about "those things suck, they catch on fire". Does anyone have actual hard numbers as to how many really caught fire? I know with some people there's no changing their minds, and I need to get some thicker skin, but it would be nice to have some numbers to shove back at them
Mine caught on fire 2 days ago That wasn't the cars fault though, I left a spark plug wire on the exhaust manifold. As for how many actually caught on fire, I believe it was mostly with the 84's before the recall. I don't have any numbers though, sorry.
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03:12 PM
sonic50 Member
Posts: 3873 From: All over the USA Registered: Aug 2004
I'm tired of hearing the same blah blah from ignorant people about "those things suck, they catch on fire". Does anyone have actual hard numbers as to how many really caught fire? I know with some people there's no changing their minds, and I need to get some thicker skin, but it would be nice to have some numbers to shove back at them
you too huhh? there was a thred about ford i beleve and a switch thay use for cruze control that can chech fire and burn your car down ..with out it even running!! hehe ive been useing that as my ammo back and its been working
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03:19 PM
RandomTask Member
Posts: 4546 From: Alexandria, VA Registered: Apr 2005
Looky looky what I found . I guess the number was 112
quote
FIERO FIRING SQUAD
"Engine fires, recalls and sagging sales conspire to consign Pontiac's innovative sports car to the scrap heap."
Last week, we presented the first installment of an excerpt from "Comeback: The Fall and Rise of the American Automobile Industry", that detailed how Pontiac's innovative Fiero came into being. The book, a saga of the late-1980s decline of the domestic industry and its sub-sequent recovery, was written by the Wall Street Journal's Paul Ingrassia and Joseph B. White, who earned the Pulitzer Prize for their coverage of General Motors. Fiero, which was conceived as a two-seat "commuter car" and evolved into a sports car against great odds, incorporated space frame construction and labor/management teamwork adopted by Saturn. But when sales slipped, GM abandoned the car: This week's conclusion chronicles the chain of events leading up to Fiero's demise.
One of Pontiac's engineers knew almost from the start of production that the Fiero had a disquieting tendency to become, quite literally, a hot rod. On Oct. 6, 1983, less than three months after production began at the Pontiac plant, a Pontiac engineer wrote an ''urgent" memo to report that two Fieros had suddenly caught fire during test drives. The engineer blamed the fires on antifreeze leaking out of badly installed hoses onto hot exhaust pipes. The man in charge of the Fiero project, Hulki Aldikacti, saw a Fiero catch fire at GM's test track.
But Fieros flamed out more than one way. Pontiac engineers fought an 18-month battle to get GM's Saginaw foundry division to stop shipping batches of defective connecting rods for Fiero engines. The foundry managers, who got paid on the basis of tons of iron shipped out the door, had little financial incentive to spend money to fix Pontiac's warranty problems. After one meeting, a Saginaw foundry manager wrote that ''. . .60 percent to 90 percent of the rods produced do not exhibit" defects. Of course, this meant that between one and four of every 10 rods were defective. Pontiac was still complaining in that ''no permanent solution has been found'' to the problem of hairline cracks in connecting rods for the Iron Duke. Sure enough, Fieros began suffering breakdowns caused by broken rods.
A connecting rod that breaks at high speed is like a shrapnel grenade detonating inside the motor. In Fieros, chunks of broken metal flew with such force that they ripped through the engine block. Oil would spill onto the hot exhaust pipes, and often ignite. The Iron Duke engines used in early Fieros also suffered from a defect in the way their blocks were cast that, in some cases, caused the engines to leak oil or lose coolant. Since the Iron Dukes in Fieros ran a quart low to begin with because of the customized oil pan, losing more oil quickly created big trouble.
GM engineers and Fiero plant workers knew of these problems and many more. They discovered that some of the engine cooling fans on early Fieros were wired backward. That meant the fans sucked hot air back into the engine. Engineers rewired the fans. Pontiac engineers fired off bulletins to dealers warning about other problems poorly installed radiator hoses, leaky gaskets and bad wiring.
"If you wouldn't want your family riding in it, recall it.'' company president Jim McDonald would say when asked about GM's policy toward recalling cars. In practice, however, GM operatives were reluctant to push for an expensive recall of a popular new model. When a Fiero burned, GM often handled the loss as a warranty claim, and paid for repairs as each case came in. Sometimes, GM and its insurance company quietly worked out deals to pay off victims of Fiero fires. GM continued this approach even as complaints about the Fiero's defects began pouring in to Pontiac and to regulators at the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in Washington. By the end of 1985, GM had reports of 112 Fieros that had caught fire one for every 1700 sold at the time. By August 1986, the pace of fire reports had quickened sharply, and Washington's safety enforcers, the bureaucrats at the traffic safety administration, began to stir.
''This...appears to be a serious problem," wrote Philip W. Davis, NHTSA's top defect detective, to GM in a letter demanding information on the Fiero's problems.
This epistle confronted GM with two unpleasant choices. Recall the Fieros to fix the fire hazard and endure a damaging public relations blow. Or circle the wagons. GM decided to circle the wagons. Two months after NHTSA's letter went out, GM's C. Thomas Terry, whose job it was to deal with the feds, wrote to pooh-pooh the concern. ''Any time an individual experiences a vehicle fire, it can be a very traumatic experience," Terry wrote. "In the case of the [Fiero] engine compartment fires, the evidence indicates the actual risk to motor vehicle safety is minimal."
This serene view of what it was like to have a car engine burst into flame a foot from one's backside wasn't shared by Fiero owners who had experienced the phenomenon. And a rapidly growing number of people were.
By the middle of 1987, the fire count for 1984 Fieros hit a rate of about 20 blazes a month. Fieros were blowing up at a rate of one for every 508 cars sold. No other mass-market car had ever come close to this rate of fires at least, as far as the federal safety watchdogs knew. If the Fiero fire rate was applied to all the cars on the New Jersey Turnpike at rush hour, there would be burning hulks every quarter-mile and hundreds of people running around in panic.
As it was, victims of Fiero fires told hair-raising tales in their complaints to GM and the government. One 22-year-old woman reported that her Fiero caught fire while she was driving with a male friend at 4:30 a.m. on the Southern State Parkway on Long Island. The couple wound up at the emergency room where the man got treated for burns on hands. A Fiero owner in Missouri complained that she'd taken her car into the dealership nine times because of electrical problems that caused her dashboard lights to blink and the engine to sputter when she turned the headlights on Finally, her Fiero quit running on a back road, and when she pulled over she discovered the car was on fire. She tried to extinguish the blaze with a pair of blue jeans, but to no avail. The car burned to the ground. This was no exaggeration. A Fiero in flames was an amazing sight. When the plastic skin ignited, the result was a brilliant bonfire no steel-bodied car could match.
Back at Pontiac, however, the fires were overshadowed by a more pressing concern. The Fiero, was becoming a money loser.
Pontiac chief William Hoglund had shielded the Fiero plant from the wrath of the bean counters when the plant fell short of its production goals in 1984, just as he had silenced critics within Pontiac who didn't think managers should go around without neckties. This had been easy to do, because the Fiero was a certifiable hit. By 1987, however, things had changed. Sales had plunged from the heady peaks of the first two years. In the 1986 model year, Fiero sales dropped to 71,283 cars, down 21 percent from the year before. Production for the year was 21 percent below the budget forecast. Sales in 1987 were slumping even further behind both the budget and the previous year.
Hoglund, the Fiero's champion, had been promoted to a new job. In his place GM had assigned J. Michael Losh, an ambitious 38-year-old finance staffer who became GM's youngest vice president when he took over Pontiac from Hoglund in July 1984. Losh's boyishly casual public manner belied a tough way with a buck. And the Fiero was losing more bucks than it was taking in.
The Fiero's troubles became obvious in January 1987, when GM laid off 1200 workers on the Fiero plant's night shift. The lay off, a response to the sales slump, battered the trust Hoglund and his staff had nurtured among union leaders. Worse was to come. Federal safety regulators had backed GM into a corner on the issue of Fiero fires and were demanding action. In September, GM agreed to recall all the 1984 Fieros and make repairs aimed at reducing the fire hazard. One was installing an oil filter that gave the engine capacity for the full four quarts of oil. Another, however, was a sticker that Fiero owners were instructed to place on the little door that hid the cap to the gas tank. "Check engine oil at every fuel fill," the sticker read. It was a lawyer's repair, somewhat akin to the warning labels on the sides of cigarette packs. The sticker effectively transferred responsibility for the Fiero's oil leaks to the owner. GM staunchly refused to admit there was anything inherently wrong with the Fiero's design. GM's public relations operatives knew the recall would batter the company's reputation, and the Fiero's market appeal. In a clumsy attempt to limit the damage, GM delayed announcing the recall until 4:31 p.m., Nov. 25, 1987. This just happened to be the night before Thanksgiving, a time when most auto reporters would be more interested in roasting their own turkeys instead of GM's. The stunt didn't work. The Fiero recall generated torrents of bad press and blighted sales. All that was left was to arrange the funeral.
In addition, GM by now knew how many labor hours it took the workers at NUMMI to assemble a small car designed by Toyota. The Fiero factory was putting nearly twice as much labor into its small cars and that was when the robots in the body shop worked properly and the paint ovens weren't causing acne-like blisters in the plastic body panels. The great Fiero experiment was now caught in a vicious downward spiral. The more GM raised its price to cover the bloated costs, the fewer people wanted to buy the car, particularly in the wake of the recall.
The Fiero plant union leaders fought to save the car. In early 1988, a few weeks after the recall, a delegation from the Pontiac local tracked Losh down in a room at the Waldorf Astoria in New York. For more than half an hour, the union men begged Losh to save the Fiero. They talked up plans to build a hot-looking Fiero convertible. Losh promised to think about it. In reality, there was only one thing left to say. Shortly after that, Donald Ephlin, the UAW's top negotiator at GM, walked into a lunch meeting with the labor relations staff at the Chevrolet-Pontiac-Canada Group headquarters in Warren, Mich. Sitting beside the labor staffers were Robert Schultz, the vice president in charge of the group, and David Campbell, the group's manufacturing boss. The two men hadn't been expected. Their presence spelled trouble. Just hours before, Ephlin had been warned that the Fiero was in jeopardy. Now, Schultz and Campbell delivered the blow: The Fiero would die at the end of the model year in the fall.
"Boy," Ephlin snapped. "It went downhill fast. It was sick this morning, and now it's dead." "When should we tell employees?" one of the CPC men asked. "It's too late," Ephlin said. "You should have told them long ago."
For Ephlin, this was a tragedy. For four years, he had held the Fiero up as a model of what cooperative labor relations could achieve. He had staked his reputation and his union career on labor-management partnership, which he referred to as "jointness." Now, GM was knifing jointness in the back. But Ephlin was powerless to stop it. On March 1, David Campbell marched on to a podium in the Fiero factory and delivered the plant's death sentence in a terse announcement. A murmur of shock rippled through the crowd. A solitary voice boomed: "Boo!" Then, the workers turned and walked back to their stations.
That wasn't the last word on the Fiero, however. Not by a long shot. In December 1989, GM recalled every one of the 244,000 four-cylinder Fieros it had built to fix problems that caused fires. Four months later, GM recalled every single Fiero six cylinder and four cylinder to make more repairs. Inside GM, the Fiero had been a bright symbol of GM's new wave. Aldikacti's product team and the people at the Fiero factory had, indeed, been years ahead of their time. But the failure of their car to survive the compromises demanded by the GM system turned their success into just another Detroit flop.
The crowning indignity came in 1989, when tiny Mazda Motor Corp. launched a little two-seat roadster called the Miata. The day the Fiero's death was announced, Mike Losh had insisted that the Fiero failed not because of quality problems, but because Americans had lost interest in two-seater cars. Mazda made a mockery of Losh's excuse. With its simple technology and exterior lines that echoed the British Triumph and MG roadsters of the 1960s, the Miata became an instant smash hit. At the peak of the Miata frenzy, buyers were offering to pay $4,000 or more over sticker to get one of the retromobiles. Sighed one gloomy Pontiac official: "The Fiero could have been a Miata.''
Copyright 1994 by Paul Ingrassia and Joseph B. White, reprinted with the permission of Wylie, Aitken & Stone, Inc.
Thanks, I'll take that It looks like, by the end of it (20 blazes a month + 112) = ~350 fires total. Since the fiero production was 370,000 or thereabouts, that's less than one tenth of a percent!
i had someone confused with a pinto the other day, and they were too persistant that when you hit them from the rear they went up in flames, so i put up with it for a little while then i just said screw it and went off on him.
my kid burned up my 87se v6 auto at about 90k miles wires shorted so cause wasNOT leaking oil or coolent
car was driven from miami to near NY NY without problem but caught on fire being driven at speed on an exway in northern NJ cold weather may have had a roll in the fire
do to the distance from home [miami] the car was given away
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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07:58 PM
MilleniumFiero Member
Posts: 1225 From: Pearl Harbor, Hawaii USA Registered: Dec 2002
my 85SE caught fire It was my fault tho I had a bungee chord around the battery and it was really frayed. My friend Matt and I had just fixed a leaking coolant problem in the engine compartment a few days ago. I think the coolant was the only thing that was stopping it from catching in the first place. As soon it was fixed and the engine compartment was bone dry. boom!
I actually embrace the myth. I've nicknamed my autocrosser "The Fireo". It just adds that much more insult to the agony of defeat felt by drivers of much newer, costlier, more powerful and higher classed cars.
i had someone confused with a pinto the other day, and they were too persistant that when you hit them from the rear they went up in flames, so i put up with it for a little while then i just said screw it and went off on him.
Little known fact... as bad as the Pinto was, the Crown Victoria is much worse:
Ford continues to dance around the issues on it’s “Panther Line” (Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car). Fuel-fed fires in this line of sedans already have claimed more lives than the Pinto when it was recalled in the 1970’s. There are 18 police officers dead, 9 badly burned, and 69 civilian deaths.
All in all... Ford has the worst overall record of all auto companies on vehicle fire safety.
- Ford E-series vans/ambulances - 1983-87 - leaking fuel system - Ford Models - 1986-87 - 3.6 million - fuel line coupler separation - Ford Focus - 2000-01 - 573,000 recalled for fire - Ford Trucks & SUVs - 1997-02 - 3.5 million recalled for fire - An additional 6 million Ford’s under the same fire investigation - An estimated 17 million Ford’s have the same fire problem - Ford Pinto - rear end fire explosion - 1.5 million recalled - Ford Mustang - rear end fire explosion - never recalled - Ford Crown Victoria - rear end fire explosion - now under investigation
The Fiero is nothing in comparison.
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10:41 PM
Back On Holiday Member
Posts: 6238 From: Downingtown, PA Registered: Jul 2001
my kid burned up my 87se v6 auto at about 90k miles wires shorted so cause wasNOT leaking oil or coolent
car was driven from miami to near NY NY without problem but caught on fire being driven at speed on an exway in northern NJ cold weather may have had a roll in the fire
do to the distance from home [miami] the car was given away
Ray B, do you know if Fiero Jon ended up with it? I bought a partially burnt engine from him a few years ago, it was an 87 2.8 auto that he said was from florida and caught on fire in Northern NJ.
[This message has been edited by Back On Holiday (edited 08-23-2005).]
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10:46 PM
Aug 24th, 2005
gldkarma Member
Posts: 536 From: Fremont, CA, USA Registered: May 2003
Ha! We stopped at a car wash in Carmel, CA, following the Pebble Beach Concours Auto Rally last week and, when I went up to the counter to pay, a 30-ish, knowledgable-looking guy was obviously reading my Fiero Store sweatshirt and said "Oh, those all burnt up, didn't they?!!" While I rolled my eyes my better half said, "Well, you're washing one right now with 215,000 original miles on it!" He got a rather sheepish look on his face and said, "Oh, I guess I'm thinking of something else! I was thinking of a Pontiac made back in the 80s." I said, "Well, unless it has caught on fire being pulled through your car wash, I've never had any problems with mine." I went on out to see how the dryoff was going and was surprised when he came outside to check it out. He said, "Wow--that's a nice looking car!" (This from a guy who had been used to Ferraris all week!) I said, "Well, if they make it, come on over to the Pacific Grove Auto Rally tomorrow afternoon and check out some other nice ones!"
Thanks for the Fiero history above and I will read it this week!
you too huhh? there was a thred about ford i beleve and a switch thay use for cruze control that can chech fire and burn your car down ..with out it even running!! hehe ive been useing that as my ammo back and its been working
i had to have that recall done on my 00 navigator!!!
With all the fieros I own and have owned, I have yet to own one that has suffered from the demise of flame and fire. I have one that was smashed by a diesel. (but still didn't burn) The driver walked away and bought another fiero the day I bought it from him. His coment was something like what other car would have protected him like that. Photos can be seen on my site.
The first Fiero I owned was an 84 and while driving on the interstate one night the car started to stall, then the lights in my dash went out, then the car died. While pulling over I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an orange red glow. I opened the rear and flames shot out. Needless to say the car was a total loss. This was back in 1988. I survived unscathed and have since owned 3 more Fieros and have never had another problem such as that. The cause of the fire was shorted electrical wires.
[This message has been edited by bomaze (edited 09-04-2005).]
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10:59 AM
thefierofarm.com Member
Posts: 1018 From: CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA Registered: Jan 2004
It turns out, if they caught fire it was from poor maintenance. What car isn't subject to the same problem. If the electrical was the problem then someone had been working on it and didn't reassemble things quite right. (might even have been the dealer) For example, most of the ones I hear about have to do with the retainer after the C500. If it is not reinstalled a the proper angle it can rub through the wires and then what do we have? Oh yea the other reason they caught fire was they were ran low on oil. CAN ANYBODY SAY POOR MANTENANCE? What car wouldn't suffer the same demise on this one? These are my opinions and only my opinions. I am just tired of hearing even the fiero owners blaming the cars over the years. If it was the cars I should be able to drag home all the burnt ones I could ever want.
Looked at the pics of the car crushed by the diesel, ouch, that was a bad hit.
Oh, on the skeleton car, technically it's not legal to drive on the street because fenders are required over the wheels, but you can do that using the stock plastic liners with a light weight tube steel frame to support them.
JazzMan
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12:59 PM
thefierofarm.com Member
Posts: 1018 From: CHARLESTON, SOUTH CAROLINA Registered: Jan 2004
I thought the same thing and was going to install the inner fenders for the reason. But fenders are not an inspected item on a Missouri state inspection. I have checked with three inspection sites on it.
Thanks, I'll take that It looks like, by the end of it (20 blazes a month + 112) = ~350 fires total. Since the fiero production was 370,000 or thereabouts, that's less than one tenth of a percent!
+ "Fieros were blowing up at the rate of one for every 508 sold."= more like 740+
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02:45 PM
Greg Z Member
Posts: 1218 From: New Orleans Registered: Jun 2004
I looked in my rear view mirror and saw an orange red glow. I opened the rear and flames shot out.
same thing happened to me about a yr ago in my 88 gt that i had. was driving along with my 2 kids and thought i had cops behind me, looked backed and saw no cops. then again saw redish glow with an occasional flicker and said o'****!!!!! slammed on brakes and told kids to RUN..RUN. i popped the decklid and it was on fire near the firewall. i just couldn't bear to see my favorite fiero burn so i took my shirt off and beat it out. WHEW!!! cause was leaves had fallen in between glass and decklid onto rear exhaust manifold.
Ive had 4 total fiero fires. 1 was a wiring problem on X shortly after i did my engine swap. a wire was under sized and the shielding melted. It then grounded out on some aluminum backed heat insulation material (not the stuff i sell, the kind that summit racing sells), and It caught fire. Then I had 2 oil fires where the oil supply line to my turbo split, and sprayed oil on the turbine of the turbocharger. Then I had an 85 GT that was knocking, so we put a 450 dry shot to it and let it explode. That was the best. I think the link is www.fieroX.com/boom.wmv
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12:05 AM
kwagner Member
Posts: 4258 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Apr 2005
I thought the same thing and was going to install the inner fenders for the reason. But fenders are not an inspected item on a Missouri state inspection. I have checked with three inspection sites on it.
Just a FYI but yep.. you can pass our inspections with flying colors without a single body panel on the car.. I know this cause ive done it, twice.. once without a whole front clip & hood or an engine cover (they saw my front batterys and thought the car was electric!! LOL!!!!) and then 2 years later with nothing but the door skins on it!! Mind you, the car does have to have every lamp installed and working. license plates on it and all the saftey items.. but as long as it passes safty and emision you can drive it..LOL
BTW I got a ton of wild looks driving a ferrari missing body panels.. LOL Oh and never had wheel liners on any of my cars... L8
Remember only you can prevent fiero fires.. best method?? Replace your motor with a more reliable one..lol 5.7/4.9/4.0/3.8SC
------------------ Ferrari 308 GTB rebody on a modified 86SE chasis Soon to have a highly hooped up 3800SC..Ohh yeah baby!! Contacts _ AIM / Zildjianfx _ Yahoo / djdraggin Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs.
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12:53 PM
cptsnoopy Member
Posts: 2587 From: phoenix, AZ, USA Registered: Jul 2003
I went to the Ecology parts yard the other day looking for timing cover bolts. The only car that had a v-6 was a white 88 formula that had the whole top of the body burnt off. the decklid was gone. the interior was all chared and all around the top of the engine compartment everything was melted off that could melt. this car had the 5 speed getrag in it but I don't know if it would be any good. the yard wanted $125 for the tranny. They did not care if it was burned or not. I did not have time or I would have taken it. The axle boots were still looking ok and the tires still had air in them so maybe it did not get that hot down there... anyway it may still be there if anyone wants to look at it. 27th ave north of buckeye in Phoenix.
I went to the Ecology parts yard the other day looking for timing cover bolts. The only car that had a v-6 was a white 88 formula that had the whole top of the body burnt off. the decklid was gone. the interior was all chared and all around the top of the engine compartment everything was melted off that could melt. this car had the 5 speed getrag in it but I don't know if it would be any good. the yard wanted $125 for the tranny. They did not care if it was burned or not. I did not have time or I would have taken it. The axle boots were still looking ok and the tires still had air in them so maybe it did not get that hot down there... anyway it may still be there if anyone wants to look at it. 27th ave north of buckeye in Phoenix.
If nothing else I'd get the VIN so that it can be listed as KIA on the '88 registry.
JazzMan
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04:39 PM
Rborecky Member
Posts: 675 From: Cleveland,Ohio U.S. Registered: Oct 2003
My INdy Pace Car has carfax record of a engine fire in 1990 and says during a accident but I find no damage to the car at all. I am betting there just calling it a accident. The slightly burnt decklid vent is still on it and the scars of rust on the air cleaner cover adn horn to it are there. Rick B
Date: Mileage Reading: Source: General Comments: 10/19/1990 New Mexico Police Report Case #747669 Accident Reported in Dona Ana County Vehicle involved in crash resulting in fire/explosion Very minor or minor damage reported Engine failure was a factor in the accident 01/03/1992 100,487 Texas Motor Vehicle Dept. El Paso, TX
Ray B, do you know if Fiero Jon ended up with it? I bought a partially burnt engine from him a few years ago, it was an 87 2.8 auto that he said was from florida and caught on fire in Northern NJ.
yes thats the right guy and story and time to be my first Fiero car had about 90k miles when it went up in flames
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd are you kind?
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06:18 PM
Sep 6th, 2005
Steven Snyder Member
Posts: 3326 From: Los Angeles, CA Registered: Mar 2004
Dude, Fieros have two seats. Keep your kids safe!! One at a time!
i was wondering if anyone would pick up on that! i was just going down the backroads to take the fiero back to storage and pick up my navigator so i could go to town, trust me this is not normal practice.