A friend and I went to Colorado last weekend for the Pikes Peak Hill Climb. He and his father are good friends with David Donner driver of the PVAXX open wheeled race car. This guy has tons of money and endorsements, and I got to meet him before the event and talk race cars for awhile. He ended up winning the whole event.

Anyway, Alex and I are going to start putting together ideas for a fiero rally race car. Were going to talk to David about getting us some sponsors to put a car together. The course is 12.4 miles long and elevates from 9000-14,100 feet. The first half is paved and the last half is dirt. The dirt half is a little bumpy so some suspension travel is necessary, but needs to be fairly stiff for the paved part.

What can be done to correct the fieros rediculous understeer problem? See, parts of the road have no rails, and are up to 2000 feet off the side. Many people have died driving this course.

Heres what we have come up with so far. Find an 88 4cyl coupe. Swap in a 400 hp turbo ecotec engine with a 5 spd getrag. Should hold up in a 2200 lb car with a few mods (LSD, cryod whatever, decent clutch). The car will be gutted. This will be a race only car. It needs a cage for saftey reasons. Only a driver seat though. Were thinking electronic canards on the front bumper to help with downforce. Also an electronic wing that attaches to the rear part of the roof to help with downforce in the middle of the car. Also thinking air bag suspension, so that we can have two setups programmed, one for the dirt and one for the pavement. Just flip a switch (somehow), and the suspension will pump up and be instantly ready for off road use.

Anyone else have any ideas? im open to anything. The race is a year away, and we want to have all of our ideas ready to present in a month to david. This will give us about 10 months to get the car together and ready for the 06 race.

Lets do it guys. What ideas ya got?

2200 LBS sounds like an awesome goal. I think that's about a 600 lb loss in weight from stock? I have been starting to think that a big turboed ecotec would be a fun engine swap, so be sure to document a lot for us if you do this.

Best of luck to you!

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04 Saturn Ion Redline
85 Fiero GT Orbit Orange Fastback
88 Fiero GT SOLD

Kills: 2003 Mustang GT, 70s Mustang Mach 1 351
AIM: phool88fiero

I thought you were through dumping money into Fieros.

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FORMERLY KNOWN AS: sqoach (so, uh...yeah.........I'm not a noob) :p

Few ideas that ran through my head.

1) Use the EcoTech's manual trans (5 or 6spd) they're most likely stronger than an 18 year old Getrag.

2) I saw an AutoCross Fiero at Carlisle that was set up pretty good. He removed the entire trunk, leaving only the cross braces for structural support and to keep the strut towers rigid. Bet thats a good bit of weight right there.

3) Lose the stock headlights for some flushmounts.

4) Move the battery up front.

5) Upgrade the sway bars.

6) Stagger the tire sizes (ex. 205s up front and 225s in the rear. 20 seems to be a good seperation)

7) I'd replace the radiator with a new one, or a new 4 core just to be safe. I've also heard of Hill Climb cars using a system that mists water on the radiator to keep it cooler, esp right at the end to get a little more power at the finish.

8) Big brakes.

9) RCC or Held suspension set up, or at least poly bushings all the way around.

Go for it, X. If anyone can put together a kick ass race car, you can.

If you end up going with the air bags... I'd assume you'd need a tank somewhere. Perhaps getting a smaller gas tank would help here... could even mount them half and half in the stock location if you wanted.

quote Originally posted by Fiero_Adam: I thought you were through dumping money into Fieros.

Wont be me dumping money into it. Were talking a $20,000 sponsorship to build the car.

Talk to Doug Chase...he's already built a Fiero Rally car.....I'm betting he'd be willing to share a ton of info with you, Ryan...

Take a look at the book "Fiero" by Gary Witzenburg. Page 103 shows a picture of Bobby Unser, Jr. in the Pikes Peak 1985 Predator Hillclimb. 'Course only the body shell was a Fiero. The caption says it had a single-seater chassis underneath. But also on 103 and 104 there's pictures of Fieros in Rallys. They may give you some ideas and sources of info for mods necessary.

Doesn't Pisa sell a kit to lift the Fiero suspension for off-road in the Jalapeño ?

Yes it does: (sounds like you could adapt it to an 88 chassis as well.)

Quoted from Pisa's website: http://pisafierohq.com/rebody_kits/jalapeno/
Lift Kit
The lift kit for the Jalapeno conversion of the Pontiac Fiero performs its function by spacering the front crossmember and the engine cradle from the chassis.

The front lift is 2 inches and is accomplished with aluminum and steel spacers for the crossmember and all related suspension components. The steering shaft is also extended by cutting a solid section of the shaft and welding in a (supplied) spacer. This retains all of the built-in safety features of the shaft, and only slightly changes the working angle on the universal joints. These are low velocity joints and still well within their operating range.

The cradle lift is 2-1/2 inches and uses solid aluminum donuts at the rear mounting points and steel weldments at the front. The struts are extended on the lower mount by welding on the supplied parts. An extension for the dogbone mount is also included. Coolant hoses need to be modified slightly, but all wiring and brake lines can be used as is with minor relocation of mounting points.

All required new hardware is included (bolts and nuts). The lift kit is designed to retain the stock geometry of the suspension and maintains the original working angle limits for the constant velocity joints on the rear axles. In order to have sufficient clearance for the lift components in the rear, we used 17 X 9 wheels with an effective backspace of 4 inches (our wheels actually have a 5 inch backspace, but are a 5 on 4-1/2 inch pattern, so we made 1 inch thick wheel adaptors to convert to the 5 on 100mm pattern and 4 inch backspace). For aesthetic purposes we used the same wheels in the front with the same backspace. This brings the tires flush with the exterior of the body. We then mounted P255/55R17 tires (28 inch diameter). This gives a speed increase of approximately 16% overall. This tire/wheel combination with the lift kit will allow full suspension travel and lock-to-lock steering with only minor interference (we had to trim a half-inch here and there on the chassis in the front).

I would just take the Fiero chassis and modify it to accept the mechanicals from a WRX STI. You would have then ultimate rally Fiero then.

With "only" $20K sponsorship try to stay away from experimental stuff, and stick with what has been pretty much proven to work.

Question - Since you have sooo much experience with the 3800 in SC and turbo configurations, why would you switch and start on something different? I love the sound of a turbo Ecotec, but unless I had a huge budget I would stick with the what I, or one of my team members, had the most experience and knowledge with.

*Removing the trunk will save you some weight. It's not as heavy as it may seem, but in the interest of improving the polar moment it's the right place to do it. Unless I was just feeling strong that day, I think it weighs about fifty pounds.
* If the cage is designed for it, you can actually eliminate the entire upper rear frame section, inner fenders, and strut towers. Incorporate the strut mounts into the cage, with slotted mounting plates to allow for camber adjustment.
*Tie the rear cage down strut bars into the factory main frame rails right over the rear cradle mounts. Better still extend them right through the frame rail, with a threaded bushing in the bottom of the tube for the rear cradle mount.
* For a race car the steel front bumper and frame sections ahead of the crossmember mounting points is doing nothing but adding weight where you don't want it. Run the cage's front down strut bars up to the front of the clipped frame rails, with a crossmember bar in it to strengthen it.
* Lose the inner fenders and upper frame sections, as in the rear.
* Hang the plastic door skins on the space frame or the cage door bars, scrap the doors and handle ingress/egress Dukes of Hazzard style.
* Hang all your bodywork with lightweight tubular steel mounts, and use Lexan windows.
* Experiment with suspension set up, sway bar size, alignment settings to see if you can dial in consistent predictable oversteer. Considering the car is mid-engine, I think I would rather know it's going to gently oversteer and drive to compensate for it - rather than race up that mountain praying the dreaded snap oversteer doesn't show it's ugly face! That's just my opinion, which an experienced rally driver might say is stupid, but it sounds like a reasonable plan to me.
* Most importantly - we'd rather see you as a "loser" who ran a smart race AT THE TOP OF THE MOUNTAIN!!!, than a wannabe winner nutcase they're still searching for over the side of it

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toddshotrods.com - crazy projects, features, articles, art & more - wanna ride?

[This message has been edited by toddshotrods (edited 06-29-2005).]

quote Question - Since you have sooo much experience with the 3800 in SC and turbo configurations, why would you switch and start on something different? I love the sound of a turbo Ecotec, but unless I had a huge budget I would stick with the what I, or one of my team members, had the most experience and knowledge with.

The rules, for WRC at least, limit engine size to 2 liters... that would exclude the 3800...

Good reason. That brings up a good point - what class would you be racing in and what are the rules for that class. We can throw out crazy suggestions for the next year, but unless you're in an unlimited type class you'll probably not be allowed to use most of them. If the class is unlimited, you'll probably need a ridiculous sponsorship deal to even compete.

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toddshotrods.com - crazy projects, features, articles, art & more - wanna ride?

Plus the 3800 is a deep skirted all Cast Iron engine, its a little porky for the 2200 Lb goal. The ecotech however is lighter then an Iron duke if that says anything. And no, a Quad 4 is not lighter then a duke A Fiero is a difficult car to get the weight down on. After removing all the BS, there would still need to be some structural cutting (especially in the doors) to get the weight down below the 2400 area. I suppose it wouldn't take too much. But then again you are ADDING a roll cage.
At 14,100 feet, you not only need a turbo just to keep the engine awake, you need a fricken respirator to keep you awake. Thats 2.6 miles up! I hit somewhere around 4000 feet in albuquerque, NM, and my car fell on its face. I have a Sunbird tach with the boost guage, well, at sea level it would hit the "0" PSI mark whenever I would lay into it. Well, It never got any where near there at that elevation. I cannot picture doing that at 14,100 feet.

Keep us posted if this project comes about. It really sounds interesting.

Is there a big comparison in weight between the Fiero Store's fiberglass panels and our plastic stock peices? - If so, it won't be much, but perhaps worth it. Get the clear covers for your parking lights in the front to help aerodynamics, new suspension peices (test swaybars that have a larger diameter, etc.). Airbags are a bad idea if you want to remain around 2200 lbs. They're quite heavy.

If you want to lose a lot of weight, take out the extra safety metal in the door panels (since you have a full roll cage anyway), replace the glass with lexan, take off the antenna, strip out the passenger seats, carpet, headliner, etc. If at all possible, use a hardtop for extra cornering and to save on weight. Take out all interior trim, switches (windows, etc). Take off the gas cap exterior cover, relocate the battery to the front, take out all spare tires, jacks, etc. Get a lightweight aluminum radiator, new fan (the stock one is terribly heavy), remove the trunk in the back leaving the crossing bar, remove the dash for a simple lightweight one (fiber glass?), remove power window motors...

There's a ton of stuff, there's 2 mins worth of thinking.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048610.html

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Doesn't Pisa sell a kit to lift the Fiero suspension for off-road in the Jalapeño ?

That's what I was going to say.

fieroX,
It's good to see some intrest in Pikes Peak, however do you know what you are getting yourself into, and more importantly how much do you actually know about this event? (I am not trying to start a war) First off, yes Donner is a good driver and he had more money invested in his rig than most everyone on the mountain. He did win the event this year however he was some 4+ MPH slower than Jimmy Keeney Jr. who has much less invested but is a GREAT driver, Keeny broke basically giving the race to Donner. But a win is a win, just had to bring up the point that money isn't everything espessialy not on this mountain.

Next, You say many people have died driving this course??? How many is that? 3, yes in 83 years only 3 people have lost their lives to the race. One was a morotcycle driver many years ago, another I can't remember but they both died later in the hospital not on the mountain. The 3rd driver to die from the race was Chandler Bruning during a time trials run. He died at the scene of the accident, I was good friends with him and his family. This year the finish line flagger was killed at the summit when he was struck by an oncoming car. He was not racing he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and didn't know how to read the path of the cars crossing the finish line.

Do you have a rule book yet? That is your most important tool to even begin thinking about building a car. The officials are very strict about safety rules which is why not many people have died racing this event. You need to keep in mind that you will need all of this stuff:
1. Full roll cage
2. Fuel cell
3. Full car fire supression system
4. Driving suit
5. Helmet
6. FIA homogulated race seat (depending on class)

You can figure that this equiptment alone will probably cost you atleast 4K.

To run in rally which is probably where you would have to run your car you will also need a passenger seat. The body of the car is to old to run in the stock car classes. Stock looking bodies must be within 6 years production, that means that you will need a car made in 2000 or newer. You could run exibition if you wanted to but it is hard to get into the class sometimes. Unlimited is another option however you may be turned down depending on how fast your car really is. They want the unlimited vehicles to be the fastest on the mountain.

Do you have any previous race experience? This is going to be the first thing that they turn you away for. They do not want people entering with no prior racing credentials.

Best of luck to you, it would be great to see a fiero race pikes peak. If you have any questions let me know. I have only missed one year since 1988 on the mountain. I am on the crew for soprtsman driver #14 who has won 2 years in a row. 2003/2005 they did not run the champ division in 2004. I was also on the crew for the #15 quad (a yamaha banshee) I helped him on the setup for his quad. We finished in the middle of the pack because we didn't have the money for big H.P. he was a roodie on the peak this year but has been very sucessful running the CHCA events.
G.

Let me know if you have any questions.

[This message has been edited by mtncrasher (edited 06-29-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: At 14,100 feet, you not only need a turbo just to keep the engine awake, you need a fricken respirator to keep you awake. Thats 2.6 miles up! I hit somewhere around 4000 feet in albuquerque, NM, and my car fell on its face. I have a Sunbird tach with the boost guage, well, at sea level it would hit the "0" PSI mark whenever I would lay into it. Well, It never got any where near there at that elevation. I cannot picture doing that at 14,100 feet.

That's what would be great about doing a turbo ecotec. You can have an adjustable wastegate so as the elevation goes up, so does the boost to compensate for the thinner air.

thanks for the info mtncrasher. To answer a couple of questions, I dont have a rule book, but will be needing one obviously. Also, thanks for the information on the casualties of the race. People have died, thats the point i was putting across. The only racing experience I have is drag racing experience. Ive been drag racing for about 7 years. I havent gotten into SCCA stuff yet. As for driving on the mountain, not me. Donner is going to be driving. Alex and I are going to engineer, and build the car. We have a ways to go. It might not be till 2007 now. An engine and tranny has been located though. Going with the 2.2L Ecotec and matching manual tranny. I think if we did this thing right, we could creep in under 2000 lbs race weight. Weve actually been thinking about a tube chassis, and putting the driver seat in the center.

Thanks for the info about the classes. We werent sure if we could compete with the STi's and such. Probably have to go for some exibition class, or unlimited something of the sort. I think with 400 wheel hp and 2000 lbs, it should make the car pretty competitive. Maybe get some 12 minute runs. We'll see. We have a long way to go. Everything is still in the dreaming phase.

FieroX,
You are building a car and letting Donner get behind the wheels? that sounds like a good plan. You should atleast dress up in his fire suit and make one pass at the mountain, you can't spend all that time and not try your luck with the road. Last year I ran my stock fiero from the start line to Devil's Playground 2 days in a row. My first day I ran a 14:02.xx, the second day I ran a 13:12.xx, that should come out to a mid 15 minute run to the finish line. The way I was doing it was I would show up at the toll gete at about 2am, sleep in my car till the rangers showed up and they would let me through the gate first. These runs were during night conditions (headlights) no seat belt and no roll cage. I worked at the summit house for 2 summers when I was younger and went up that road every day studying it, I can't count how many times I have been up but I am guessing it is within 175/200 times. It has been my dream to race the peak since I was 4 years old, every year that dream gets more and more unlikely. The race is in trouble because of the paving, I give it 3 more years before it no longer exists. Thats not much time to have my chance at the mtn. Like I said in the post before, if you need anything let me know. I know of lots of hill climb resources if you need them.

By the way, get the air bag suspension idea out of your head. There have been many cars with 3 to 4" of travel that have had no problems. The dirt section is not as bad as it seems once your running at high speeds. My friends quad that we set up this year only had 1.2" of clearance and we didn't see one scratch on the swing arm all week.
G.

quote Originally posted by mtncrasher: FieroX, You are building a car and letting Donner get behind the wheels? that sounds like a good plan. You should atleast dress up in his fire suit and make one pass at the mountain, you can't spend all that time and not try your luck with the road.

Yeah, thats the plan. I just want to be the engineer/builder/technician/pitcrew . Id like to drive it, but hes a pretty small fellow, and Im 6'2" and 220 lbs. I might have to get my own fire suit. Ill definitely get some seat time with it locally though, testing it on some dirt roads and such, while we get the suspension tuned for dirt.

Thanks for the info on the other stuff, I dont think we'll need too much ground clearance, Donners car is hella low, and he didnt have any problems with the dirt section. Weve been thinking more about a tube chassis like the one pictured above. I think with a fiberglass skin over the tubes, lexan windows, and that aluminum 4 cylinder, we might be able to creep it in at less than 2000 pounds with driver. Did you see that Evo in the unlimited class this year? It weighed in at 1870 lbs and its a fairly large car. Crazy stuff. I think we can take him