The WCF site says that 16" or 17" wheels are required. Yet ALL the people who I have seen do this are running 17" or bigger wheels.Just curious if anyone running 16" rims with this upgrade has run into any issues? I ask is because I found some Prime 16" wheels I really want, but I don't want to buy them if the C-4 upgrade won't fit.
Function before beauty you know.......

Why do you need to go to bigger brakes when the formula equals F=MA. In order to slow down the car, the car mass, tire friction, rotor/pads friction all comes to play. I have upgrade the coeffienct of friction in the pads to a more aggressive pads which in turn equals the friction of a stand pad with more surface area for lot less $$$. The bigger rotors does not necessary disappate the heat faster. It just makes it a bigger heat sink. Adding simple air brake cooling does more for the brakes than just adding a bigger rotor. For $600 I can and will bet anybody that my cheaper setup will brake the same as the bigger brakes. Remember the F=MA rule. A stickier tires helps the braking action beacause of the friction generated at the tire patch surface area.

My times I have tested and comapered my '88 GT to the bigger brake suystem at the track and even at a national SCCA Solo2 event and I stop qicker and with less distanced with my brake setup than when a '88 formula came to the meet with the bigger brakes.

Reason why, he used OEM pads with his big brakes. First all OEM pads have very little friction materials in the pads, secondly he used some aftermarket wheels that limited the surounding rotor cooling air, and lastly his tires were not as grippy as mine.

So the real question is, do you really need the bigger brakes for lots of $$$ or do a simple brake mods with little or no money and come out with the same braking system? With some simple mods like changing rolors to slotted, installing more aggressive Porterfield's brake pads, and add air brake cooling ductwork to the brakes.

Thanks for your input....I agree with everything you said EXCEPT "The bigger rotors does not necessary disappate the heat faster. It just makes it a bigger heat sink"

A bigger heat sink does disappate the heat faster.

Now, that being said, I have no doubt that with performance pads & tires you can stop better than someone with the vette brakes, BUT, imagine if one were using the vette upgrade AND performance pads & tires, along with stainless lines.

I still need to know if anyone with 16's has the WCF brake upgrade on there 88?....any problems?

I agree intlcutlass. Case and point. I installed slotted and drilled Corvette rotors. I am still using the same brake pad and caliper. So the only thing that changed are the rotors. This car stops a hell of a lot better and continues to do so repeatedly unlike the stock rotor. If I went to even a more aggresive pads it would stop even better if I wanted nose bleeds from stopping. (Your orginal question I have 17" so I can't help there.) Solo2 I doubt that your setup would out brake mine repeatedlywith the same brake pad material. Your brakes will just overheat plain and simple. Bigger rotors = better heat disipation.

------------------

Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 INTERCOOLED SUPERCHARGED
White 88 GT Stock
Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.
History of Skitimes Car UPDATED 8-11-03

intlcutlas,
I have done the brake upgrade you are asking about and I'm running 16" Centerline Wheels, 7" in the Front and 8" in the Rear. Be happy to talk to about it off the forum. Send me an email and we can share phone numbers if you like. I will say this about the upgrade, my car now stops with (guessing) 40 to 50% more braking horse power. I considered more agressive pads and decided to try stock pads first. Now that I have done the upgrade, I see no need for more agressive pads. My car stops better than anything under $50,000. I can't imagine needing more brakes than I have now. I'll PM you with my phone number.

------------------
Ron
88 Formula, 4.9, auto, daily driver
88 Formula, 3800 SCII/4T65E Swap in Process, almost done.
88 Formula, 5 Spd, 3.4 TDC Swap in Process, just started.
88 Formula, Stock, 5 Spd, T Top, Special Days Only!

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 01-12-2004).]

Guys,
Please read the latest issue of Grasroots magazine. The issue that features the fiero in it. In that same issue it dicusses the nature of braking in it's braking 101 series. Read that and then comment on my statement. A bigger heat sink does not necessary dissapate the heat better it still up to F=MA equation.
Please read that and then comment on what if any that I said wrong. The issue even surprised me.

quote I'm running 16" Centerline Wheels, 7" in the Front and 8" in the Rear

Does Centerline sill make a 16x8 in the 5x100 bolt pattern?

------------------
Don Hites
88 GT, Getrag 5spd, 4.9 v8 with a Delta cam and other heavy mods.
88 Coupe 5spd Duke
(now under restoration)

well i have the held 12 willwood and that can can stop on a dime its a bit over kill but the brakes have saved my life a few times. and i am running 16's on my car so i think u will be ok with 16's

Joe Sokol III

Here you go guys.
Grassroots Motorsport Magizine
Feb. 2004 issue.
Brake part two
"Gimme a brake"
Page 95 thru 103.
Read this article than tell me what item or sentence in that article does not state what I alraeady stated.
Please confirm that this article is wrong than I will state to the form that I was in error. If no one can prove that my statements are wrong that I stand behind every word that I stated.
So guys read the posted article and see how is right on this topic.
BTW thier article reference source is the book titled "Brake Ststems" by Mike Mavrigan & Larry Carley. with I also have a copy of that book.

Solo2,
I'm not arguing with what you said, I'm just stating the results I have experienced, folks should go what ever directions they feel is right for them. Grassroots is a fine magazine and I don't for a minute doubt what they said is true. But I put the brakes on my car that fit what I wanted and they are working great, I stand by my statement about the 40% to 50% braking horsepower improvement though I admit it is an estimate. My 4.9 will now stop on a dime and give nine sents change back, a huge improvement. I believe that there is still more stopping power available if a guy wanted to spend the bucks, but I've got all that I want now. Happy Fieroing.

Hites,
I don't have a clue as to what Centerline has now, these wheels were N.O.S. when I got them and I think I got the last two sets available.

------------------
Ron
88 Formula, 4.9, auto, daily driver
88 Formula, 3800 SCII/4T65E Swap in Process, almost done.
88 Formula, 5 Spd, 3.4 TDC Swap in Process, just started.
88 Formula, Stock, 5 Spd, T Top, Special Days Only!

It's not just about heat, it's about torque. Given the same pads and the same amount of clamping pressure, the larger rotor provides more braking torque and generates approximately the same amount of heat. I'd bet the difference in heat disipation between a 10.5 and 12" rotor is extremely minimal, but it takes less pressure to stop the car if the rotor is larger, and that means less heat is generated. Besides, little brakes look silly behind big wheels

Rock is right. Its all leverage. Need more torque , get a longer wrench. Its all the same principle.

------------------

88 Formula

I wonder why performance cars have bigger brakes? Certainly GM could put 10 inch rotors on Corvettes with high performance pads to save money. But they did not. Why? Because performance driving creates more heat. The best way to handle this is to put as large as possible rotors on.

Now you are quoting a magazine I have not read but seriously you are not comparing apples to apples. You said your car stops faster than another Formula with big brakes. Not apples to apples. 1.You had performance pads. You said he did not. 2. The car was not driven by the same driver. You might brake harder then the other guy. Now as I stated if I had the same pads you had then my car will stop quicker repeatedly. Repeatedly is the key word. Now you are a Solo driver so you are quite aware of brake fade. (You even added venting to help the problem) Brake fade is caused by heat. Now your car and my car might brake the same on the first stop with the same pads (That is the F=MA then) but on the 15th repeated stop I seriously doubt it. (That is the brake fade thing) So saying you get the same results with 10 inch rotors as 12 inch rotors leaves you open for debate from a lot of people on the forum. Another benifit of the bigger brakes is much less pedal effort caused by the same pressure being applied to a bigger diameter.

One last point. How much have you spent on your brake setup? You said you changed to slotted rotors, bought more aggressive Porterfield's brake pads, and add air brake cooling ductwork to the brakes. What was the total of that? I spent $450 on mine. And I would rather have mine no matter what you spent on yours. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/031192.html

quote Originally posted by rockcrawl: It's not just about heat, it's about torque. Given the same pads and the same amount of clamping pressure, the larger rotor provides more braking torque and generates approximately the same amount of heat. I'd bet the difference in heat disipation between a 10.5 and 12" rotor is extremely minimal, but it takes less pressure to stop the car if the rotor is larger, and that means less heat is generated. Besides, little brakes look silly behind big wheels

Amen brother!! Solo2 doesn't have it all straight.. I got 12" rotors and Porterfield pads and you won't stop in a shorter distance than me!! that is unless you hit a brick wall..

------------------

3.4 DOHC Turbo swap in progress

I installed the WCF Corvette rotor upgrade and the difference was stunning! I immediately noticed the clamping force of these brakes. I have friends with Porschees and Furraris - this is the first time my scooter felt (I repeat felt) like it could compete at least on one performance parameter. Mind you, fade is another issue I have not experimented with, especially since I put it together with three different kinds and thicknesses of pads. But fade can be addressed just as you can address fade in the stock brakes with a pad upgrade.

Meanwhile, my brakes before would lock up the wheels and after the Corvette rotor upgrade would lockup the wheels. So what's the difference? With stock brakes I was using a large fraction of my leg strength to bring the car down fast and losing the feel needed to brake at the edge of traction. With the rotor conversion, my leg effort is reduced considerably making it very EASY to feel what the brakes are doing and to modulate them.

FYI. The conversion of kinetic energy to heat energy required to bring your car down from a certain speed is the same no matter what brakes you have. The heat energy is the same even though the temperature of the brakes/rotors might be different depending on the heat sinking qualities of your particular setup.

------------------
ICouldaBeenAV8

88 GT "ICouldaBeenAV8", 72 V8 Z "Agent Orange", 87 FZR 1000 "Young and Hung", 1979 CBX "Sumo Wrestler", Cb1100F "Queen For A Day", RIP M35 "Money Pit", someday Gen III RX-7

You guys did not read the article. It is only your tires that does 90% of the braking force not the rotors. The friction generated between the tire patch and the road surface. The rotor turns mechanical energy to kinetic enrgry (heat). A bigger rotors JUST disappates the kinetic energy more evenly throughout the rotor. It does not mean that the heats goes out of the rotor faster it just a constant temperture evenly throughtout the rotor. A bigger heatsink. That's it guys.

Now how does this heat dissapates out of the rotor? Thru the design and only design of the vented vanes in the rotor. The best vented rotor design are the ones that have curved vane design. Majority of OEM rotors have striaght venting vanes. Look at your present venting vanes in the rotor.

An aftermarket of special applications like track rotors have that curved venting vane design. Thereby disappating the heat faster out of the rotor which leads me back to the orginal question that a aftermarket curved venting vane design dissapates the heat as equal or bigger than the bigger OEM striaght venting venting design bigger rotor. The equation mechanical energy ME = KE kinetic energy must be equal at all times.

Read the above mentioned article!!!

Now that the rotor disapates the heat it is up to the tire friction to do the stopping not the rotor!

BTW the slotted '88 racing rotors w/curved venting vanes was only $100/ea x 4 = $400 plus the RS Porterfield's pads w/.41 coeffiecnt of friction vs. oem pads of .20 friction @ $49.00/pr x 4 = $196 plus brake cooling ductwork w/mounting hardware = $20 for a grand total of $616.