I'm just wondering on how big of a difference would the skid pad be on a V8 Fiero compared to a stock V6 Fiero... Plus how much better would the skid pad be if I bought new racing springs, for course racing?

and while we are on it, can someone explain what the skidpad is?

quote Originally posted by yashmack: and while we are on it, can someone explain what the skidpad is?

a skidpad test is a circle that is 200' in diameter that a vehicle continues to go around at an ever increasing speed untill the vehicle finally spins out of the circle... the sideway G-force is measured in giving the answer to how many G's it pulls before losing traction.. Anything close to or over 1.0G is doing really good.

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3.4 DOHC Turbo swap in progress

[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 12-16-2003).]

Kameo Kid beat me to the skidpad explanition. But the Skid pad numbers for the Fiero GT is between .86 and .89 (don't forget that there are so many factors that can effect things, a "perfect" ammount is'nt possible, unless they were to set a sertian skidpad, type of asphalt, temp, air pressure, asphalt (or concreat) temp, etc. Then it would be closer, but you still have the driver effect.

Also, because a car can pull, say .89Gs on the skidpad, on a normal curving and things, a typical family sedan can do arround 1G, and those are cars doing .70 or so on the skidpad, I'd say the fiero can do at least 2.0G on a curve (depending on tires, etc)! And that's stock suspension and stock allighnment! Hope this helps man! And welcome to the forum (I've never told you that)!

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www.freewebs.com/fierogti

Nobody has ever done a direct one to one comparison for the answer you seek, there are too many variables, let alone finding a suitable place for bench mark testing under the same conditions.

Ballpark wise: the stock '88 GT I believe pulled a 0.86 G, but the parts/tires are out there to get it over the 1.0 G mark. As far as the V8 Configuration, if it's setup properly it will also pull over 1.0 G

It's not an easy as it sounds though, many parts have to be replaced on a stock setup, and additional parts added to pre-'88 cars. Then comes the dialing in with suspension settings, tires, pressures, vehicle weight distribution, etc, etc.

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http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

Thanks on the help, i was just wondering if my car would ever be better then a Z06 Vette (.91 skidpad). But wow I didnt know I was so close to them I still have a way and like everyone said it's not easy to do but I hope when I buy a better suspension setup I would be there next to or exceeding the vette... And thanks "Razor_Wing" and everyone else who welcomed me to the forum.. PS: do you think the Fiero will ever get close to a 2.0G skidpad thats like a supercar or something, is there a stock car that could do anything like that?

2.0 is a 'wet dream' the Fiero will never see, I'm not sure if there are any factory street cars out there under $200,000 that could even get there.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: 2.0 is a 'wet dream' the Fiero will never see, I'm not sure if there are any factory street cars out there under $200,000 that could even get there.

ah come on Kid, if you goto. ...like Lowe's or Home Depot and get some of that high tack spray adhesive.. then spray it all over your treads, then wait for it to dry... well if you can get passed all the stones that will get kicked up.. then i think 2.0 is VERY POSSIBLE...

[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 12-17-2003).]

2Gs would be possible on a high-banked track. I know what a 2G turn feels like from flying and I don't think it will ever be possible on flat pavement in a road car. Sorry. Around 1.2Gs may be attainable by a Fiero.

[This message has been edited by RACE (edited 12-17-2003).]

Yeah I was thinking that.... Oh well plus I like you adhesive idea. So if i get the racing suspension you'll think I'll get close to 1G or higher?

I believe that some people are talking about two different measurments here. There is a major difference between peak g's and sustained g's. Peak g's are ofter significantly higher than sustained...though I doubt that 2 g's would be easily possible, peak or sustained.

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87 GT Auto, Beretta GTZ Wheels, 225/50-16 Dunlop SP Sport A2s, Poly cradle/swaybar bushings, KYB shocks/struts, RCC Bumpsteer kit, 1" front & 7/8" rear swaybars, NYM rear springs (stiffest), H4 headlights, Fierowarehouse Scorpion scoop, 88GTNeverfinished tails, Repainted all silver, Fiero Store hitch, Accel SSR wires, Rapidfire plugs, K&N filters.
Future mods: Rear control arm poly bushings, Front mounted battery, Hood pressure vent.
3800 S/C after all that!

quote Originally posted by Kameo Kid: ah come on Kid, if you goto. ...like Lowe's or Home Depot and get some of that high tack spray adhesive.. then spray it all over your treads, then wait for it to dry... well if you can get passed all the stones that will get kicked up.. then i think 2.0 is VERY POSSIBLE...

I can personally tell you that 3 G's is un-controlled!!!

I'm not even sure if there's a Street Car out there that will pull 2 G's on a skid pad, the only things I know that will go that high are possibly Formula 1 and Indy type cars.

quote Originally posted by KKell83: Yeah I was thinking that.... Oh well plus I like your adhesive idea. So if i get the racing suspension you'll think I'll get close to 1G or higher?

well if you go through few threads that determine handling characteristics you will see that there are a lot of combos out there to improve you handling.. I think that with good improvements your goal would be met. Just depends on how much you want to spend to get better handling.. Handling is just like speed (speed=cost money, how fast do you want to go?) so how much of an improvement do you want in your handling.

Point well taken on 'down-force' assisting on the race cars, I did a little search and came up with these interesting facts:
From the McLaren web site: Mika, David, and Alex experience severe g-forces under acceleration/braking (longitudinal g-force) and through cornering (lateral g-force). Under braking and accelerating out of a corner, the drivers experience loads that can peak 5 g. This effectively means the drivers neck has to support nearly 5 times the combined weight of his head and helmet when braking and cornering during racing - thats up to 25kg. This is the equivlant of having 25 bags of sugar being applied to your head instantaneously.

Another Formula 1 site reports that "sustained" lateral g's in excess of 3.5 g have been recorded in turns.

Heart rate: At rest, a norma heart beats 60-80 times per minute (bpm). During qualifying sessions, or whilst overtaking in a race, the physical strain and nervous pressure can cause rates to soar as high as 210 bpm. Throughout a normal race, the heart beats at around 170-180 bpm for one and a half hours!!!!!

Some car improvement modifications have been not allowed by the Forumula One Group, because with the changes the g-forces were getting so high that the drivers could 'Black-Out' during racing.

Kinda makes me feel like, how do you spell 'Wuss'???

I think that Tires have alot to do with latteral g load. I know the wider you go the better you get. I have bumped up to 215's on my 88 from the stock 195's and have noticed a big differance, when I can the 215's are going onto the front and 225's are going on the rear.

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Don Pottorff
Red 88 Fiero 2M4
Silver 86 Fiero 2M4

2g's... please.. There is a BIG difference between g's on a skidpad, and g's going through a bank..
If I were to hit a hard bank or ramp in a civic, it would pull 2-3 g's.. Thats not what a skidpad is about
though.. Skidpad is just about lateral movement on a flat surface with tires, before they give
out to momentum.. topfuel pull 7-9 g's for a moment, but it's just for a moment..

Fiero wont do 2 Gs unless the skidpad involves hitting a solid object.

quote Originally posted by Razor_Wing: But the Skid pad numbers for the Fiero GT is between .86 and .89

I'm adding a rear anti-sway bar to my '85 GT. Does anybody know the skid pad figs for the '85 and the difference with the added anti-sway bar?

Arn

But understeer on the Fiero is a big problem when it comes to skidpad. To get better resoults it would be better to tighten up the front suspention and have the rear a little softer so that the rear slides more then the front. Just a little trick I learned from tuning cars in Gran Turismo 3, Mid engine cars seem to do better if you can get the Front as tight as you can so it gives more traction. When you accelerate around a turn, that is take a right turn the right rear is giving the most traction. however the right front wants to slip since it isnt getting as much traction, Tighten up the front suspention will make it give a little more traction. Second thing to do would be Camber, to get more traction in a turn negitive Camber more so on the rear will make the tire have a bigger contact patch on the ground giving you more traction thru the turn as it will come more into contact with body roll of the car. Another way to get more traction is under inflate your tires a little as tire pressure comes up with heat.

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Don Pottorff
Red 88 Fiero 2M4
Silver 86 Fiero 2M4

Youre kidding right?

So if I got a roll bar of 3 up front and 7 out back Id be all set. lol

quote Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: . . . . Just a little trick I learned from tuning cars in Gran Turismo 3,

No if you set the front up softer you will resoult in a skid with the front as it will not give enuf traction.
However I dont know what the settings or strengths are in real life but a stronger sway bar in the front would be better resoult then a heavy on in the back. a way to get better proformance with a mid engined car is to get rid of the heavy Understeer and try to bring the handleing as close to netural as you can. The Closer to netural you can get it the less you have to brake to get that all important weight transfer to get it to turn at higher speeds

Ummm... There's some basic rules that apply here; I'll let the physics majors supply the formulas and charts.

Basically, you've got two forces acting on the car in a corner. One is gravity; this force points straight down and has a magnitude of 1G. The other is centrifugal force; this force points away from the center of the curve and its magnitude depends upon the velocity of the car and the radius of the circle. The forces add up to a resultant force that is a polar summation of the input forces.

OK, let's assume that our Fiero is going around a curve and pulling that magic 1G of cornering force; this is a big assumption, as we'll see:

1G downforce = 2500 Lbs. 1G centrifugal force = 2500 Lbs to the side. Resultant force = 3500 Lbs force at a 45 degree vector pointing "down and out". This resultant force pushes the car off it's course with a force equal to the car's weight; this is the point where theoretical friction is overcome and the car spins out.

Of course, real friction never achieves the theoretical amount, so that 1G cornering force is also theoretical.

General rule: on flat surfaces with friction drive, the theoretical maximum cornering force is 1G.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: Ummm... There's some basic rules that apply here; I'll let the physics majors supply the formulas and charts. Basically, you've got two forces acting on the car in a corner. One is gravity; this force points straight down and has a magnitude of 1G. The other is centrifugal force; this force points away from the center of the curve and its magnitude depends upon the velocity of the car and the radius of the circle. The forces add up to a resultant force that is a polar summation of the input forces. OK, let's assume that our Fiero is going around a curve and pulling that magic 1G of cornering force; this is a big assumption, as we'll see: 1G downforce = 2500 Lbs. 1G centrifugal force = 2500 Lbs to the side. Resultant force = 3500 Lbs force at a 45 degree vector pointing "down and out". This resultant force pushes the car off it's course with a force equal to the car's weight; this is the point where theoretical friction is overcome and the car spins out. Of course, real friction never achieves the theoretical amount, so that 1G cornering force is also theoretical. General rule: on flat surfaces with friction drive, the theoretical maximum cornering force is 1G.

Physics has PWn3d me

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Black 85GT

No PM Please
AIM : Mjpana252
email : MJPana@Comcast.net

On the latest issue of car and driver magazine, they feature 3 supercars: a porsche GT3, a ford GT, and a ferrari challenge stradale, and the handling g's for those cars are in the order they were listed:

1.03 for porsche
0.98 for ferrari
0.98 for ford GT

and the were all on a 300 foot skidpad

and check this out the ford GT can do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds!!!!!
if you want your fiero to be a G-machine, u should check out popular hot rodding mag. they have all kinds of handling things to make a G-machine

I was making fun of you.

quote Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: No if you set the front up softer you will resoult in a skid with the front as it will not give enuf traction. . . .

If this was the case, how do you explain the times dragsters have been running? Off the line they launch with close to 5 G so it cant be aero.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: Ummm... There's some basic rules that apply here; . . ..

The T-Rex trike is able to sustain over 1.4 Gs. Mercedes has an active camber program that has increased lateral Gs to 1.28. Mercedes-Benz: F400 Carving

[This message has been edited by RACE (edited 12-18-2003).]

For one I aced Physics in School. for two I have a friend who races stock car and I know what I am talking about. Three I used a Formula that I found for real life application that I found on the internet, that I applied to GT3 and found that those formulas work just fine. If you want to set up a Mid engined car to handel better you will have to address the major problem of understeer. You try to go thru a skid pad and the front end starts to slide out on you instead of the rear. You have to set up the car so it dont do that.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: Ummm... There's some basic rules that apply here; I'll let the physics majors supply the formulas and charts. Basically, you've got two forces acting on the car in a corner. One is gravity; this force points straight down and has a magnitude of 1G. The other is centrifugal force; this force points away from the center of the curve and its magnitude depends upon the velocity of the car and the radius of the circle. The forces add up to a resultant force that is a polar summation of the input forces. OK, let's assume that our Fiero is going around a curve and pulling that magic 1G of cornering force; this is a big assumption, as we'll see: 1G downforce = 2500 Lbs. 1G centrifugal force = 2500 Lbs to the side. Resultant force = 3500 Lbs force at a 45 degree vector pointing "down and out". This resultant force pushes the car off it's course with a force equal to the car's weight; this is the point where theoretical friction is overcome and the car spins out. Of course, real friction never achieves the theoretical amount, so that 1G cornering force is also theoretical. General rule: on flat surfaces with friction drive, the theoretical maximum cornering force is 1G.

You have heard of Mark Donahue and the concept of a friction circle.

*smirk*

quote Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: I thought we were trying the skid pad here a dragster will not go thru the skid pad all that well. Skidpad is about cornering not straight line driving. blah blah blah I have had the Fiero Very close to the mark as well when I took a hard right hand turn at 50 mph wich had an advisory of 15, something that scared the crap out of me and I dont think I want to get that far on the edge again. I could swear I was going to end out in someones field on the outer edge of that turn but instead I stayed in my lane wich was the inside lane.

Further, I am not sure you should be driving on public roads outside GT3.

quote Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: For one I aced Physics in School. for two I have a friend who races stock car and I know what I am talking about. Three I used a Formula that I found for real life application that I found on the internet, that I applied to GT3 and found that those formulas work just fine. If you want to set up a Mid engined car to handel better you will have to address the major problem of understeer. You try to go thru a skid pad and the front end starts to slide out on you instead of the rear. You have to set up the car so it dont do that.

You do realize that the Fiero's understeer was designed in on purpose, don't you? It's not a flaw. There's a few things that make this type of car naturally unstable; trailing throttle oversteer, a rearward weight bias, and a very low polar moment of inertia. Understeer makes the car more stable and manageable - if you were to redesign it so that it handled neutrally, you'd have something that'd spin out at the drop of a throttle - it'd be a twitchy, unpleasant beast and unsafe to drive.

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: You have heard of Mark Donahue and the concept of a friction circle. *smirk* Further, I am not sure you should be driving on public roads outside GT3.

Glad someone said it, because I was thinking very similar. This 2m4 guy's posts smack of uneducated regurgitation about handling characteristics and suspension tuning. I would be half tempted to write up a quick little paragraph about how it works, but I'm packing for my flight which leaves in a few hours. Maybe someone else can edumacate this kid.

BTW: #1 way to tell someone doesn't know $hit about what they're talking about is when they say something like this:

quote [QUOTE][B]Originally posted by 88Fiero2m4: For one I aced Physics in School. for two I have a friend who races stock car and I know what I am talking about.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 12-19-2003).]

quote Originally posted by 88Fiero2M4: ...and I know what I am talking about.

Wow, that's one of the most ignorant statements you could have made. The more I learn, the more I realize that I don't know much. Once you get outside the box and try to truly learn *everything* about anything, you find that it's like trying to find the edge of space, you can try your whole life and it never seems to get any closer. I'm beginning to believe that ignorance truly is bliss! I remember when I used to think I knew what I was talking about....geez was I a dumbass.

Bryce
88 GT

Its too easy, don't turn this thread into a flame. Let it go.

My point was that the interaction between the tire and the road is complex and cannot be explained by a simple physics model.

1G is the edge of what current street tires are pulling, but some are past a G right now and theyre still going forward. Look at the current Road and Track. Dot approved kumhos will go close to 1.5. Toyos I ran all summer, more then 5k miles on em, pulled more then a G.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: Now you're getting into special cases. If you've ever examined the tires on that dragster, you've noted that they're very, very soft - you can nick them with a fingernail. This super soft compound molds to the "grain" of the pavement, providing a mechanical "lock" to the surface. Put these tires on all four wheels of your Fiero and you'd be able to pull some serious G's - for the 20 or so miles they'd last before wearing out. In the real world of practical street tires and normal roads, 1G is the goal to strive for...

So to try to get technical, what do say we do to get this goal on a 84-87.

There are a few stock upgrades that can be done such as the cross member and such from a GT if not so already equipped. They're boxed and offer slightly less flex. Perhaps a bigger front bar? All new bushings, Konis set to soft up front? An 88 cradle swap to an early chassis with a rear sway bar, and 375# springs? Lets hear successful combos in this tread. I'm sure they are all over the archives, but just trying to get stuff thrown into one for future searches...

Travis pulled over 1.1G on konis, bars, custom panoz wound springs and ao32rs.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010924-1-006283.html

while on the subject of tires, let's not forget about width. Althou I haven't tried "yet" i've heard that with coilovers on the back of an 88GT like mine I should be able to fit a 275series tire or maybe slightly wider without coming out of the fender wells... that would throw another wrench in to the formula and would greatly increase you ablity to "stick" to the road thus abtaining a goal of 1G or better result.

[This message has been edited by Kameo Kid (edited 12-19-2003).]

Not to get off topic, but I spiked a GTEC @ 1.7G's in my mini that i autocross. This is a 2002 Cooper with Sport plus suspension , H&R springs and A032'R's (yok's)

Gtec isn't that accurate , but I know that with proper equipment that a setup like mine will pull a little over 1G.

just for comparision , The mini outcorners my Fiero by a good strech , the fiero has with coilovers , koni's , big bars and poly... So it's a very compitent car

Food for thought.

JM
THE SBC PUNISHER