I was just reading through the trash section and heard a bunch of twits making poorly thought out arguements about how the fiero sucks and how there are better cars out there. I am just wondering if i can make a reasonable arguement about the best all around car in the class of non-exotic sports cars.

My vote, the 1989-1994 nissan 240sx.

First off, the price of the car, which is guaranteed to be newer than any fiero is without a doubt equal. My friend just bought one, a 1992, with 58k miles for $3400. Not bad at all. Oh yeah, insurance will also be as cheap as any fiero.

Second, power and weight. Put a GT fiero against a base model 240sx. Both weigh in the ballpark of 2700lbs. The 240sx does however have 15hp and 10lb/ft over the fiero. Note that this is done with an I-4, and yes, that's right, that means noticabely better fuel economy.

Third, Handeling, and this comes not from numbers and such off a web site, but from timed sections of backroad driven by me and my buddies several times a week for the past 2 years. The champ, my 88 fiero gt with koni adjustable shocks, eibach springs, addco swaybars, ss brake line and Z rated tires on 17x7 wheels, which for the record weighed 12 lbs. each. The challenger, bone stock 240sx with V rated tires on 16x6.5 stock alloys. I drove 3 sections on our mountain running 4:33, 2:50 and 3:27, I then jumped into my friends 240, drove 20 miled of corners and ran each section that I had previously drove an average of 6 seconds faster. The biggest advantage I noticed was the elimination of snap oversteer that always scares the crap out of me in my fiero. The 240 simply instills confidence, due to it's optimum wheel base and perfect ballance.

Last, but not least, maintenance and mods. Who has the bigger aftermarket? 240 by more than tripple. Ease of working on? The wide open FR layout of the 240 versus the crammed MR setup of the fiero makes the 240 much cheaper simply because i can do twice as much work on it myself. Also replacement oem parts just happen to be cheaper for the nissan, thanks to their ties with ford. Also, I invite any of you out there with a fiero that has over 250,000 miles on an un-rebuilt engine to drive on over to my place. Then we'll see if it even runs after a night of mountain driving with my other friends 240. It's coming up on 300,000 and we can still drive it hard as we like. Nissans DON'T DIE. My fiero however, put a rod through it's block at 115,000, an engine that's been brought in for all it's maintenance at or ahead of schedule.

Ah yes, that brings me to another point, i went to the fiero shop in richmond to see how much a replacement engine would cost with installation. A 3.4 GM v6 would set me back just over $3000, just an engine mind you, with 190hp. My friends new J-spec sr20det engine COMPLETE with transmission is on it's way. It set him back $2300 and he will have 205+ hp on an engine that has, stock, forged rods and a bullit proof block. And did i mention it's only a 2.0L, can you say even better mileage? And yes it will be a 50 states legal swap.

In it's deffense though, the fiero is a better looking car, so you still have that. But the extra 3000 i saved on the 240 would buy me a body kit and a new paint job.

Well if any of you can think of any reasons, that you can show proof of, why the fiero beats the 240sx in the areas i've stated, please post them, same goes to you others who have another favorite car that'll take on the fiero and the 240. And just remember, i'm just seeing if i can prove a point, and if i can be shown up i will take it with out whining, so lets keep from slinging insults. Can't have this turn into another dude16. Oh that reminds me, dude, try going fast in a direstion other than straight with your 3600lb beast, keep it on the 1/4 mile where it belongs, leave the mountain to the REAL bad-asses.

Which would you rather get pinned under the trailer of a semi in? the 240? or the Fiero? you tell me, or better yet ask Chester.. he'll tell ya. thats reason enough for me to get the Fiero right there. You sound alot like a old young fella that used to be on here called Dude 16, guess you're not as exotic as him, with only a infatuation with 240's instead of 300's.

------------------
Ray - 1988 Aero Coupe 'Mio Dolore' - FieroNews.com
"Life only pretends to be real" - Anonymous Author

3,000 Just for a 3.4 Engine? hmm Id bet that would be with installation. Cause if it were 3,000 dollars you could have a SBC 350 and half of Archie's TOTAL Engine Swap Kit, and you would blow away any 240sx.

Adam

------------------

-Blown 2.8
-Undergoing engine swap to a new 2.8
-Have the 2.8 Block, have the oil pump, water pump, and all my gaskets
-Needs: Starter, Heads Redone, Ported Manifolds, WCF Intake, ARI Phase 2 Cam, Spintek Muffler, Mr Mikes Seats =)

I had a 91 240SX SE 5 spd. Yes, it did handle awesome with Firestone SS tires stock size. I just didn't like the fact that the engine in it is the same one used in the Nissan Hardbody trucks and it sounded like it. I had put a open element filter and Apexi N1 exhaust on mine. I liked the car overall but something about it just felt cheaply made to me. I liked my 92 Prelude Si better.
And the 240 engine can die especially if you don't keep an eye on the timing chain tensioners.

------------------
Jeff
AOL IM : Only2xsess

uhhhh... I have one reason that the fiero is better than your nissan. ITS AMERICAN MADE AND ITS A FIERO. Not flaming but incase you got lost you might want to join this Nissan forum http://www.crxsi.com/resources/forum/240SX/
Just my 2 cents =)

------------------

These topics are usually in the trash section for a reason.

And to each their own on what car they enjoy. I like my Fiero and believe it to be the best for what I want.

the 240 may have more Hp in stock form , but the torque just isn't there.

I have a good friend who runs a 92 with a T04B , spearco intercooler and around 8psi of boost. I have rwced him several times with a stock 4spd GT and a 75 shot..

He didn't start pulling on me until triple digits. The car is pro built , isn't a jap spec silvia motor , it's the bigger 2.4. So the Torque is there. I have run his car around the track as well , it has 300zx brakes up front , coilovers and Tokico's, all poly. pretty much the same mods as my GT. Both on street tires and we spent lap after lap on each others bumpers. The 240 is more nimble , but doesn't have the steady state cornering ability of the fiero.If the 240 was 6 seconds faster than the fiero with those mods..you need to learn to drive the Fiero. The snap oversteer shouldn't be a problem ont he 88 if it's setup correctly.

the car is fun to drive has great aftermarket.

My only question..why go to all the trouble of telling people on a Fiero forum, how great the 240 is.

If I wanted a car in the same class with greater potential than the 240 or Fiero ,I would go for an MR2 turbo. By the time you get done working on the 240 or a Fiero to the point of where's it's competitive you could have bought a nice Mk2 Mr2 Turbo. It already has 220hp , it's mid engined.

As for Gas mileage and performance..who cares? I want torque and the feel of a raw street driven Can am car. Not some candy ass car that gets great gas mileage.

The aftermarket or the 240 really isn't that much greater than the fiero.

Jonathan McCreery
86 GT Northstar 4spd in progress.
Z06- KLR.

Well, I had to say something. My friend has a 240sx with a five speed tranny, we went out for a cruze so he could show me his car. All the down shifting and tight turns were not slow, the car seemed fairly balanced but nothing spectacular. We decided to give it a drag race on the back roads, my 86gt auto on his stick. I pulled on him early by 2 car lengths, and I dragged my gears up by manual clicking through the gears on the auto shifter (5500rpm), can only drag the two gears, by the time I was in third at 3500rpm he was beside me just getting to my rear bumper, I was ahead barely by the time we hit 140 and let off. What does that say?
My tired 190,000 km car on his 90,000 km 240 held it's own, if I had the stick and aluminum flywheel I'd have pulled even farther. yes the 240 handles well, and probably just as well as the fiero through the tight stuff, but on a wide winding corners or open turns I pulled away on him every time, and I don't even have a rear sway bar. Maybe your 88 is sick or something, I've spun my car 1 time, and know its handling limits, when the front starts to float I let off the gas slightly and let her grip and keep pulling through. Yes the fiero can be scarry if it whips around, but that's why you have to learn how to drive it by watching and feeling the understeer, and not panicking by hitting the breaks or dropping the gas completely.

------------------
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, 0-60 high 8's. Good: Love the car, and has potential. Bad: needs work.
Bought for 2500$.

Well the first problem is the Nissan 240 isn't in the Fiero's "class". As for handling, it all depends on how the car is set up. The suspension on the 88 you listed has been modified. It doesn't mean it was tuned to the chassis. Type and brand of tires makes a huge difference even between tires with the same speed rating. As for engines, per Edmunds, the 1992 240 has a 140hp 152lbs 4 cylinder engine. The 240 weighs in at 2728 and an 88 GT weighs in at 2850. The 240 in stock form has a skidpad rating of 84 and the Fiero has an 86 rating.
The Fiero was 6mph faster in the slalom than the 240. Although these ratings were done when the cars were new and over the years these change. Per consumer reports, the Fiero has a 5 star crash rating for front and 4 star for side The 240 has a 3 stars for both front and side.

You could probably find a bunch of cars better then the Fiero and I could find a bunch worse. It all comes down to preference.
If you prefer the 240, then buy one.

I have to say a case could be made for either car. My opinion is I like the fiero. It doesnt matter how much better other cars are for the same or less money. I buy what I like. I dont race cars for a living and I dont drive my fiero to work so for me at least and probably a lot of others who browse this forum, it is about the fiero the looks the feel and the american manufacturer.

Just for the record, my other fiero had 250,000 miles on the engine before we decided to retire it (frame was rusting out). and it is about looks. I'm personally not a fan of comparing newer cars to older ones. Technology gets better, cars get better. i'm not saying that older cars suck, you just have to look at them and compare them to cars of the same time. There are uncountable number of the cars "better" then the fiero today. i'm just a fan of the styling and the mystique behind the car. long story short, you can think what you wanna think, but the people that are here, are here because they weighed the options and went for the fiero, so don't htink that you'll change peoples minds.

Well first off, i'm not going to go join a 240 forum because i don't drive one. I'm just searching for some intelligent arguement, fact for fact. I could have posted on the VW forum to since I also own an audi, but this place is usually a bit more level headed than those crazy VW kids. Oh and for the record, I'm not dude16. I have baught and paid for full insurance on both my car completely on my own. Well I was hoping, NOT due to opinion that we could find an ultimate non-exotic street car, just for kicks, but if you all are gung-ho fiero junkies, then throw opinion after opinion at me. Anyone who wants to have a conversation with me, please keep posting. I was looking forward to other cars you could all think of other than a fiero.

First off, I'd like to say "nice job" to your well thought out, and clearly worded evaluation. It's a nice contrast to the common "troll" who comes in here with a 3rd grade spelling education and only an intent to stir the pot. Thank you.

Now to your comparison & reasoning. I'm not going to go down each detail in an attempt to one-up each of your points, but here are a few in simplified form:

The Fiero is really not in the same class as the 240sx at all- as a matter of fact, this is one of the first times I can recall ever seeing the two compared directly. Why? Mid-Engine vs. Front Engine is two tremendously different things.

As JM mentioned... Torque is a huge issue- it all depends on what you're looking for performance-wise. Same with his observation on the suspension & tuning. Just because you have upgraded parts on the car, doesn't mean that it'll automatically handle better.

Your observation on engine-bay capacity is a bit skewed. The 240sx certainly doesn't have an "expanse" engine bay (compare it to an F-body), nor is the Fiero as tight and cramped as it initially seems (especially when compared to almost all new car designs- wanna change a starter in a N* Caddy? ).

Price- I also agree that one could spend $3k on a Stock-replacement engine swap, but that's really a "retail" cost (I've been quoted $1k or less for a L4 to V6 swap). How about getting a price quote from your local Nissan dealer on ordering & installing a new J-Spec motor? Apples to Oranges again. Heck, I'm picking up a running TPI 350 for $1k next weekend... that's a third of the $3k price you were quote for a 3.4 (and it's got another 2.3L and a bunch more power)!

You certainly have valid points when it comes to things like longevity of Nissan motors- they, like Toyota & other imports, are known for it (GM isn't exactly... it's more rare than common to see a 250k mile 2.5L or 2.8L Fiero). But your mileage comparison is relative to engine, transmission, and city/hwy driving. I get about 19mpg in my mildly-built 3.1L V6 around town (which is reasonable, but not spectacular). But get me on the highway, and I have measured approximately 40mpg while cruising at 3000rpm (that's about 100-105mph btw) for hours on end.

Lastly, you said it yourself. The Fiero is visually a much more appealing car- and that alone means a lot. But as others have mentioned, why are you trying to "sell" the 240sx to a community of Fiero owners? Should we be over on the Nissan forum trying to "sell" the Fiero? How about the F-Body, Mustang, or Corvette forums? Nah... people are in their specific clubs/organizations because they enjoy- and have a passion for the vehicle of their choice. That's the key- personal choice.

Again, I thank you for your well-worded and non-inflamitory statement.

------------------

Looking for Fiero posters?

The problem is people here have deeply skewed views of cars in the first place. If not I doubt they would be spending so much money on a 15+ year old car. I understand what you where looking for here though. Normally you should look at something that got a bad rap for some reason right out of the gate and get one of the last years for that model. People dont think they are worth anything you can buy them right and generally all the bugs are worked out. Like say oh I dont know an 88 fiero gt maybe. LOL

quote Originally posted by xsrage: The problem is people here have deeply skewed views of cars in the first place. If not I doubt they would be spending so much money on a 15+ year old car.

<humor= intended>
Yeah... we don't really know what we're doing, we just can't get any performance out of these cars... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025670.html </humor>

quote Originally posted by MinnGreenGT: <humor= intended> Yeah... we don't really know what we're doing, we just can't get any performance out of these cars... https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/025670.html </humor>

Huh? did you miss my point or am I just not getting it?

All depends on what you want as stated before. I did a motor swap 3.4 for dirt cheap got a deal then did a some mods I get 33+ MPG (400 miles a tank) and ran a 14.9 me messing the starts up, horrible 60 ft times.

But for $3000 I'll have a 3800SC that puts down 280-290 HP at the wheels. If I left the 3800 stock I could've had it in for under $2000 and had 210 HP at the wheels. Go with what you like.. I like the fiero very underestimated car and with a new motor brings new life/meaning to the car.

------------------
-KC
88 5spd, Formula
Enough mod's to make you go
40% done! 280-290 RW HP

quote Originally posted by xsrage: Huh? did you miss my point or am I just not getting it?

Humor my Man! Humor It was a joke!

You stated that most of us have skewed views of cars in the 1st place. And that if we didn't have skewed views of the car, then we wouldn't probably spend on money on cars of that age.

quote The problem is people here have deeply skewed views of cars in the first place. If not I doubt they would be spending so much money on a 15+ year old car.

Most of us can see the real potential of the car (as opposed to our "skewed perceptions")- California Kid's car is a prime example of what can be done by "spending money on a 15+ year old car." You just have to look at car like CA Kid's, The GreatBlue ChopTop, Archie's Stinger, Skitime's Red GT, and others to see why we feel so strongly about using the Fiero platform.

Here is another good Fiero accident example:
Marian (LVMY88) was coming home one day with her Fiero last summer and wasn't paying attention (shame on her) and slammed right into the back of a late model Dodge Duster at 40 mph that had stopped to turn.
Long story short, the Duster was totaled and Marians Fiero only had a bent right A arm, the honey comb plastic under the nose was damaged and of course the nose facia itself was torn off the car damaging the side markers in the process. Amazingly, all that as we Fiero lovers know is very repairable.
Now keep in mind that she hit the other car at 40 mph in the rear with the front of her Fiero. WWWHAAAAM!
Generally the car doing the hitting with the front of their car like a battering ram is easily totalled, especially at speeds like that . The cars that are hit in the rear are not however always totaled. Either way, it should have at least been Marians car totalled.
The Fiero sustained that impact and survived with extremely little damage.
Not only that but the way the Fiero is designed, it absorbed the impact which took a lot of the impact shock away from the car she hit. The other driver walked out of their car with no bruises, no soreness, no whiplash (thank goodness) etc.
I can't imagin what kind of damage their would have been if Marian had been driving a different car, or *gasp* and SUV!
Now granted, she should have been paying attention and not slamming into this poor unsuspecting driver, but that is why they call them accidents I guess.

Marians Fiero was litterally back on the road looking as good as new in just a few days. The reason it even took that long was waiting for the replacement A arm for her 88. My Dad luckily had an extra set of side markers allready and he is a genius at repairing those Fiero facias

Now, take that exact same accident and replace the Fiero with say your 240sx or any other car for that matter and let's see what the outcome is then?

Steve http://members.cardomain.com/fiero5

quote Originally posted by bossanova: Well I was hoping, NOT due to opinion that we could find an ultimate non-exotic street car, just for kicks, but if you all are gung-ho fiero junkies, then throw opinion after opinion at me. Anyone who wants to have a conversation with me, please keep posting. I was looking forward to other cars you could all think of other than a fiero.

First, This is a Fiero Forum where we gather to talk about the Fiero.

Second, If the main substance of your topic is not the Fiero, it belongs in 'Totally O/T' O/T meaning 'Off Topic'.

Third, I'd take on any 240 and whip his A$$ racing or in shows!

------------------

Click to Listen!

Overall the 240 is a much better car. I have driven both cars, and there is something about the 240 (my guess is the balence) that makes it a much easier car to drive fast. The fiero awlays makes you think that your driving on the ragged edge, and you are. The car is much older, and in turn more poorly designed, so they just don't perform like the newer 240. As for better cars, the 1985 Toyota Corrola or Hachi Ruku. You can get this drit cheep and they are one of the best drft cars ever made. They perform like a car twice as expensive. Thats my 2 cents.

Flex

"The biggest advantage I noticed was the elimination of snap oversteer that always scares the crap out of me in my fiero. The 240 simply instills confidence, due to it's optimum wheel base and perfect ballance."
---Well, if that type of handling scares you, by all means, buy a Datsun.
Mid-engined, rear drive only cars, by their nature are more difficult to handle than a front engined car.
I find that my Fiero's tail end steps out in a similar manner to my Lotus Esprit, (a mid-engined car also) but the Lotus is going a whole lot faster. Possibly because of more suspension travel and lighter suspension components.
Sounds to me like you don't trust your car, possibly because you did a bad job of modifying the suspension.
Bet you lowered it, and now it hits the rear bump-stops on sharp bumps in corners.
---Remember that almost every high powered front line race car on the planet is mid-engined, and it's for a good reason; you can put the power to the ground better because of the rear weight bias, it responds faster because of a lower polar moment of inertia, and it can have better aerodynamics.
--Notice that I didn't say "it handles better".--
The people that can take full advantage of these strong points are race car drivers.
However, if you are a poor or mediocre driver, the car will bite you.
If a person is clever, they can use these strong points in their favor while driving, or when they modify their car and end up with a superior road machine.
-- As an aside- In my opinion, the stock Fieros suspension and handling properties have been dumbed down for old women drivers.
So I have made the appropriate modifications to fix that on MY car- It now drives like a sports car.
Heheheh.
So buy your Datsun or your Subaru and disappear into the sea of faceless uninteresting cars.....we'll leave the light on for 'ya.
P.S
"optimum wheel base"
What the hell are you talking about?
Luv,
Brian

For you two guys that like the 240 so much, go buy one. You don't have to tell me or anyone else on this forum that they're better, because I doubt anyone cares.
If you want to compare cars, go look for a job with Car and Driver.

------------------

I am a victim of this skewed perception. Or at least that is what the mustangs boys around town say. Just wait until I am finished and see them cruising town. LOL

quote Originally posted by DJPimpFlex: Overall the 240 is a much better car. I have driven both cars, and there is something about the 240 (my guess is the balence) that makes it a much easier car to drive fast. The fiero awlays makes you think that your driving on the ragged edge, and you are. The car is much older, and in turn more poorly designed, so they just don't perform like the newer 240. As for better cars, the 1985 Toyota Corrola or Hachi Ruku. You can get this drit cheep and they are one of the best drft cars ever made. They perform like a car twice as expensive. Thats my 2 cents. Flex

LOL, that's a funny post. Seriously, Driving the 2 different cars requires you to know the different handling characteristics of each. My guess is you drove both cars around the block and picked the 240. As for the Corrola, well, umm,

Here is a link for you: http://www.crxsi.com/resources/forum/240SX/

The 240 is nice but I would prefer a Mazda RX7 twin turbo for the same money. Just my humble opinion.

I'm sure there are a lot of people like me that like the Fiero just for it's unique American MR configuration and just because it's a cool, fun car. There are a lot of cars out there that will beat a Fiero in any racing style you can name but the fact remains that it's an unusual breed of American car.
Did I mention that the Fiero is an American car?

I can never understand why people post subjects like this here. It's like going to a SnoopDog concert wearing a KKK robe.

Idiot!

quote Originally posted by DJPimpFlex: Overall the 240 is a much better car. I have driven both cars, and there is something about the 240 (my guess is the balence) that makes it a much easier car to drive fast. The fiero awlays makes you think that your driving on the ragged edge, and you are. The car is much older, and in turn more poorly designed, so they just don't perform like the newer 240. As for better cars, the 1985 Toyota Corrola or Hachi Ruku. You can get this drit cheep and they are one of the best drft cars ever made. They perform like a car twice as expensive. Thats my 2 cents.

LMAO- thanks for the chuckle man... you drove them both- and therefore you are the defining factor as to which car is best. So tell me, what professional driving school are you teaching at that qualifies you to make that statment. And Fieros are "always on the ragged edge"? I'll have to remember that the next time I take a 35 mph tight corner at 70mph!

As for an '85 Corolla... yeah. Anyday, anywhere, anytime! Just 'cause you can drift a car doesn't make it fast

BTW: bossanova- if this guy is a friend of yours, he really isn't helping your cause. His post was really the opposite of yours- this one's just another troll with an uninformed opinion. <yawn>