Hey!
The concept of sports car is often misunderstood. After World War II returning servicemen brought home cars they could not find the equivalent of in the American market. These cars were small, cramped, lacked even the most basic comforts such as weather protection, were low on power and styled like cars of 20 years earlier, but they were also nimble and fun to drive.

The MG-TC is regarded by many to be the car which started the modern sports car movement, an archaic design with a ridiculously small engine (by American standards) it brought fun into driving. Designed as it was, for English country roads, not open interstates, it had a level of handling which completely outclassed the lumbering barges we called cars at that time. In a drag race it didn't stand a chance but when asked to stop or steer it was brilliant. It was a sports car. In its wake we have the Triumphs, the MGs , the Porsche 356s, the Fiats, the Datsuns et al. These are not cars known for their accelerative prowess but for a balance of handling and spirit which made them a willing partner on a twisty country road. Today the torch is carried by the Mazda Miata and the new Toyota MR2.

The debate over what is a sports car and what is a Grand Touring car will never be sufficiently settled but a good working definition is this. A sports car is a nimble, light weight, two seater which offers above average handling but
not necessarily overwhelming acceleration. It is most at home for short trips on back roads where its handling can be exploited to best advantage. Luggage space is usually not an issue since it is a short range car, and a roadster body style is most appropriate since it heightens the sensations so important in these cars. A Miata fits this description, as does the Ferrari 360 (at the powerful, expensive end) an argument could also be made for the Corvette Z06. The four cylinder Fiero is a sports car. A GT car is usually more powerful and comfortable, sometimes in a 2+2 seating format, giving up a little in ultimate handling to provide a high speed transport over long distances. These cars are more often coupes with more luggage room and a long-legged gait well suited for hours of driving. The Corvette coupe, Porsche 911, Ferrari 550, all Aston Martins and newer Jaguars are true GT cars, and an argument can be made to fit the Fiero GT into this category, especially if it has an automatic transmission.

I like sports cars. One of my fondest automotive memories comes from 1972 when I watched a driver in a Fiat 850 Abarth spider having a ball, possibly without even breaking the speed limit (but definitely breaking the noise limits of polite company). He was doing laps around an area of about four or five blocks on circuitous up and down hill streets, the little 902cc engine screaming to redline on each shift.

I had just been admiring a 440 six-pack Dodge Challenger with a four speed only minutes earlier, yet here was this little slip of a car easily making me forget the musclecar. Here was a car that was "FUN", but not really antisocial. Here was a car that could give enjoyment without the truly serious aspect of handling a lot of power. Here was a car you could enjoy on a trip to the corner store, every outing a "Walter Mitty at LeMans". I have been fascinated by small nimble "gutless wonders" ever since. A ride in an MG Midget, a chance to drive an MGB and a Triumph Spitfire, and finally a 1984 Fiero of my very own, (it has since been replaced with an 85). My car is fun, my car is a sports car, it is not a drag racer, it is not a long distance cruiser, it is a sports car.

I hear lots from the muscle car guys, the ones who want to stuff as much horsepower as possible into a Fiero.

I hear lots from the custom guys, the ones who want to make the car a personal statement.

I hear lots from the racers, street (shame on you) and organized, the ones who are looking for ultimate performance.

I hear lots from the "GT" crowd (I don't mean Fiero GT here, instead look to the meaning of Grand Touring, covering long distances in comfort at speed), the ones with the highway cruisers.

Now how about the sports car crowd, the ones who are quite happy even with the Iron Duke but want their car to sound good, handle well and just be fun to drive. My 85 coupe

Edited to add images.

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Ira Crummey
1984 econo coupe (soon to depart)
1985 coupe (work in progress)
The Iron Duke Resource Site

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 03-29-2003).]

Well said. Very good Monza. I think you just described what Im after in my Formula. How ever I would like to increase both the handling and the power so its not tooo underpowered for the handling.

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Fierokid's baby:
R.I.P.V-6 Swap 1987 Blue Fiero
sport coupe
White 1988 Fiero Formula
AIM: Fierokid87
Rate Me Please

Hey I am a sports car guy. I had nearly every model Triumph made from Spitfires to the Stag. I even made some that Triumph did not. I paid my way through college as a mechanic at a sports car garage. That infuence is still with me with my Fiero GT.

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Red 88 GT T-Top 3800 Supercharged
White 88 GT Stock
Please give me a rating if you appreciate my contribution.

Fierokid87, Sports cars are all about balance, as long as the power and the handling are a match, it works, Good luck with you Formula, I'd like to get a rust free 88 some day, even a base coupe.

Ira

I doubt rust will pose a big problem in your search for a Fiero!!!

Ahh......Enduraflex. It's beautiful.
Only GM would call plastic and fiberglass "Enduraflex".

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---"Didn't those catch fire?"---
---"Why didn't you get an MR2?"---
---"The engine is WHERE?"---
---Liking Fiero's is a lonely business---

quote Originally posted by Monza76: Sports cars are all about balance, as long as the power and the handling are a match, it works Ira

I don't mean anything against stock Fiero's, they handle their own pretty nicely, and I think anyone would be proud to own a really nice stock one. But, it can be modified to handle even better with suspension improvements and goobs of power without sacrificing the Sports Car intent of the Fiero design. The original Cobra is a prime example of these same type of modifications I'm talking about. It's all a matter of the execution of the modifications, desire, and money. I didn't sacrifice anything about the car (not even gas mileage), just improved all the sports car attributes. Is is necessary??? No it isn't, but some of us just like to push the envelope a little higher.

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Click to Listen!

quote Originally posted by Monza76: I had just been admiring a 440 six-pack Dodge Challenger with a four speed only minutes earlier, yet here was this little slip of a car

The thing you're missing is that the Fiero can be the best of both. Power of a '60's muscle car and handling of that that sweet little "slip of a car".

Why settle for one when you can have it all?

Archie

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quote California Kid Wrote: I don't mean anything against stock Fiero's, they handle their own pretty nicely, and I think anyone would be proud to own a really nice stock one. But, it can be modified to handle even better with suspension improvements and goobs of power without sacrificing the Sports Car intent of the Fiero design. The original Cobra is a prime example of these same type of modifications I'm talking about. It's all a matter of the execution of the modifications, desire, and money. I didn't sacrifice anything about the car (not even gas mileage), just improved all the sports car attributes. Is is necessary??? No it isn't, but some of us just like to push the envelope a little higher.

No argument there, but you must have noticed that at least half of the big engine swaps involved just the power increase, result is not a very well balanced car. Your car, some of Archie's creations and quite a few others are "whole cars" they have been the result of an overall plan.

Now lets take a hard look at some of the discussions here that are not always very well planned such as:
1) adding another front sway bar at the rear, with no other changes this is a bad idea (go argue this one elsewhere, I have heard them all before)
2) brake "upgrades" which involve adding Grand Am brakes on the rear only.
3) stuffing an SBC into an otherwise stock Fiero (probably in need of suspension repairs anyway)

We have seen all of these and more here. I am not against any increase in power as long as the rest of the car is upgraded to match. Your car is a sports car in the realm of the Viper, Corvette Z06 and Ferrari 360, mine is in the Triumph, MG end of the scale. When Shelby built the 427 Cobra very little of the original AC design remained, it is a far different animal from the 260 and 289 cars. He recognized that the car is an integrated system, significant changes to one subsystem will result in the need for changes in another.

BTW if you don't want that car I can send you my address

Ira

edited to fix typos

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 03-29-2003).]

Hey, It's Ira!
Hows it going?

Steve

Hey Steve:

I am still around, almost finished the Masters program at university so I will soon have more time to devote to this (and a healthy pay increase as well). You still selling graphic sets? How many Fieros now? Still into collectables? PM me with the details, I still have the shirt you sent me, I am careful how it is washed

Ira

quote Originally posted by Monza76: Hey, didn't you start out stuffing an SBC in an Opel GT

Yes Sir, Sure did....... In fact, I put SBC V-8's into most of the little slips of a car that you mentioned above. If all I was looking for was straight line performance that Opel would have taken care of it. But I was looking for the best balance between the Muscle car and the sports car..... I spent a lot of time & money looking & finally found what I was looking for in the Fiero.

Archie

quote Archie wrote: Yes Sir, Sure did....... In fact, I put SBC V-8's into most of the little slips of a car that you mentioned above. If all I was looking for was straight line performance that Opel would have taken care of it. But I was looking for the best balance between the Muscle car and the sports car..... I spent a lot of time & money looking & finally found what I was looking for in the Fiero.

Yeah, saw an MGB with an SBC at a car show recently, looked good until I noticed the long shackles and the reverse curvature of the rear leaf springs, sad. The thing was a straight line only car for sure.

Ira

A couple of the guys in my sports car club have Sunbeam Tigers with 302 Fords. You could get them new with Ford 289s at the time.

I love sports cars, I've grown up with two of them in my garage. My dad owns a triumph tr3 and tr4. Both cars were pretty much wrecks that he rebuild and slowly and still slowly restoring them. I've got great memories of sumer nights when my dad would let me my brother and 2 more of my friends pile into one of the two cars and go for little joy rides around the neighborhood. Once I started to really get into cars I like the whole stuffing a huge engine into any car and seeing what it'll do in the 1/4 mile. But as I got deeper into it I got more into it I started to like the cars that could carve a turn like they were glued to the road.

So then I turned 16, got my permit, and started seriously considering cars that I could buy and have fun with. Well a fellow forum member that I knew from a different forum got his 86 GT and that introduced me to fieros and now I'm hooked. Now I have my own car, a 92 Nissan Sentra E, my plans for the car once I get it on the road, are buying some lower higher-performance springs and shocks, and when I get more money some better wheels and tires. I'm going to make this car a parking-lot racers if I can find some local clubs that do that. Some people would say this is a waste of money but I see it as more of a way to have fun with a car which is what I feel cars are for, having fun.

I'm still looking for a fiero though and sooner or later I will have one to tweak and tune to speed around a track with ease.

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Its too bad, the Rootes group which built Sunbeam were purchased by Chrysler. They couldn't have a Ford powered product, and their V8 was too big to fit so it was dropped before it was fully developed, it was a bargain basement Cobra. BTW I think the Tiger had the 260cid V8 but it may have had the 289 in the later versions. Small block Fords are very compact V8s.

Ira

I haven't seen too much here that I would take a tilt with.

Now, if we could just convince the SCCA what their namesake is all about, instead of sedans and taxicabs like they seem to have taken a liking to!

G

My first sports car was a 74 MG Midget. What a blast! And you could drive it around corners with your right foot flat on the floor, and still not get "out of shape".
Strangely enough, I traded that car in for my first Fiero - an 85 GT that I purchased new.
Straight line acceleration is cool, but I prefer a car that handles, too.
I am one of those from the school of "If 'more' is enough, then 'too much' is just right." so I *do* appreciate an infusion of horsepower. But not so much that it upsets the balance of the car.
Just my $.02.

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Raydar

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Phuk Phrance! ...until I'm told to change it.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: A couple of the guys in my sports car club have Sunbeam Tigers with 302 Fords. You could get them new with Ford 289s at the time.

I had an opportunity to try out one of the original Tigers with a Ford 260 in it. Compared ot my '66 Alpine it was ill handling, short on leg room, and generally less fun to drive except for straight line acceleration. But I'd still like to own one of each.
In comparison I also like the balance and handling of the of my 4 cyl coupe better than any of my V6s.

Dave

Thanks for the stories guys, keep them coming.

I have owned my 1975 MGB for about 17 years now. Love it. I drive it to work every day from March to October.

It is a totaly different car than the Fiero. Doesn't do corners very well. Isn't terribly fast but sure is fun to drive especially with the top down.

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1986 Fiero GT

Theres a guy near here in Zanesville, ohio. He does 'factory' style installs of Rover V8s in MGs. Apparently, this was a tuner option at one time according to my car club guys.

sportscar? maybe. my fiero is a "motorcycle substitute". less chance of getting road rash.

rogergarrison the Rover V8 was actually a factory car for the last few years, but only in England I believe. It was the MGB/V8. This engine was lighter than the six they stuffed in there in the 60s to make the MGC, which was a failure because the handling was terrible.

Ira

Monza- very well written!

The only thing I find a slight disagreement with is your somewhat simplistic breakdown of the types of Fieros & Owners...

I'm not a "Musclecar type" - although I am getting a V8.

I'm not just "Custom Guy" - although my car is very much my own personal statement. I don't change it for anyone but me.

I'm not just a street, or even weekend racer (OK, maybe the ocassional stoplight) - although I do feel that performance is very important.

I'm not just a "GT" type - although I do enjoy the cruising aspect of my Fiero.

Above all else, I do consider myself a Sports Car enthusiast. I really did enjoy my '84SE- even with it's lackluster power- but I do crave a higher level of performance in my Sport driving... which brings me back to the top of this list

-Again, very well written!

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Looking for Fiero posters?

What do you mean?
It rides rough.
It leaks oil.
It's drafty.
Of course it's a sports car!

Actually, Archie said pretty much how I feel. I've always been a die hard muscle car fan (had a '69 Firebird and '72 Trans Am), but I love the nimbleness of a sports car. Thankfully, I've found a car that has the potential to be the best of both worlds.

My '72 T/A was, at the time, an incredible handling car. It pulled .83g on F60-15 Bias Ply tires back in '72! It actually handled better, IMO, than the 78-81 WS6 cars because it had stiffer springs and bigger sway bars (1.25" front, 1" rear, stock). By the late 70's, they had softened up the suspension and the WS6 really was trying to get back to what it was, rather than push the envelope. Although it did have better tires, wheels, and 4 wheel disc brakes. But compared to the Fiero, it's like driving a steam roller. It does handle well, but it's a sledgehammer compared to the Fiero's scalpel.

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[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 03-31-2003).]

quote [b]MinnGreenGT Wrote: The only thing I find a slight disagreement with is your somewhat simplistic breakdown of the types of Fieros & Owners... I'm not a "Musclecar type" - although I am getting a V8. I'm not just "Custom Guy" - although my car is very much my own personal statement. I don't change it for anyone but me. I'm not just a street, or even weekend racer (OK, maybe the ocassional stoplight) - although I do feel that performance is very important. I'm not just a "GT" type - although I do enjoy the cruising aspect of my Fiero. Above all else, I do consider myself a Sports Car enthusiast. I really did enjoy my '84SE- even with it's lackluster power- but I do crave a higher level of performance in my Sport driving... which brings me back to the top of this list

OK, let me see how about the - custom, high performance, sports/GT types who like a muscular personal statement they can cruise in and do sports car stuff... guess I'm pushing this one just a little

Ira

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The Iron Duke Resource Site

Ira Crummey
1985 coupe

quote Originally posted by Monza76: OK, let me see how about the - custom, high performance, sports/GT types who like a muscular personal statement they can cruise in and do sports car stuff... guess I'm pushing this one just a little

LMAO! Thanks Ira... that's a bit more like it

One more bump before I let it pass away!