Having had the old Neon vs Fiero thread dug back up, it raised a few eyebrows. I owned both a 96 Neon SOHC and an 87 Fiero GT at one point, and I didn't dare driver the Neon like I did the Fiero. Tires I am sure played a large part, but the car truly did not feel like it handled nearly as well as the Fiero. Confidence level of sorts.

But I suppose I was wrong...

So comparing the Pre- 88s and 88s to say today's cars, what can we still hang with stock for stock?

I figure we loose to Celica, RSX, WRX, Tiburan, Integra, and Eclipse.

But what about the Civic, Civic SI, Corollas, Preludes, and other lower end cars. What about the 2000+ Neon?

Has the Fiero aged so much that stock for stock it can't out handle family grocery go getters?

And for referance sake, what if you say put about $1000 to $1500 into suspenion mods into a Fiero? How would it fare then? I am talking modded vs their stock. Not mod for mod.

Going from a Lateral Acceleration (g) standpoint, the Fiero is right in the ballpark of the cars you mentioned.

84-87 Fieros tested from .80-.82, 88's were .83-.84. Weather, car, track etc etc can influence these numbers slightly, but low .8's is very fair.

C&D's numbers on some of the Cars you mentioned:
Celica .86
RSX .84
WRX .82
Eclipse .81 (Spyder .78)

The Fiero may not put up those numbers today with a tired suspension, but I do know I can take those thruway offramps at crazy speeds I never could come close to in my Ford Probe SE, which itself was a very good handling car.

The RSX's have gotten criticized a little because a rear suspension compromise hurts its at the limit handling and feel. The Celica's have great handling from everything I have seen, beware of them. As for the Eclipses, Tiburons etc. I am sure you can force them to stick well, but they are bigger and heavier cars, and just won't feel all that agile regardless of what numbers you squeeze out of them.

Also, those numbers aren't necessarily the end all. AkursedX just had a Mustang following him on an onramp loose it and slam into the wall the other day, and the 'Stang got a .82 on the skid pad.

I'd say the Fiero could hang with all those cars, except possibly the Celica, but I wouldn't just name it the winner either. However, I may watch out for the Miatas and MR2 Spyders floating around!

the Fiero numbers were also with the crappy GT+4 tires that came stock.. some modern rubber improves handling a bit.

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1988 Quad 4 Coupe 5 speed
More pics of the coupe
1986 GT 5 speed, 1984 SC Auto
AOL: LastMinuteBastrd AIM: SavedbyJebus

I just gotta jump in here with a comment.

Let's compare apples to apples. There is no stock mid- 80's car that is truly competitive against today's cars. You can't count the 2nd generation MR2, or the 3rd Gen RX7, they are more "modern" (and children of the '90s).

Your C4 'Vettes, 240/260/280 and even 300 ZX's, 1st Gen MR2, and other "sports cars" of that era are not as good at handling (or braking) as the new grocery getters - like the Neon or Celica. Throw in the Miata/Boxster/S2000/Z3 2 seater "sports cars" of today, and we Fiero lovers can really start to feel one-upped and dated.

But with some slight mods, both the 1st Gen RX7 and the Fiero CAN once again become competitive. Doubt they will dominate, but they can at least stay with the newer cars. None of the other dated suspensions I listed above can can say that.

My classing battle with the SCCA is based on that premise - just give us a chance against cars of our own vintage, or allow us mods that will make us competitive against the newer cars. I AM making progress, BTW.

I will guarantee you that the only C4 "Vettes or Nissan/Datsun Z-cars that can stay with me on a tight track are those that are truly racing vehicles (no daily drivers!), and no 1st Gen MR2 (including the supercharged ones)at all. Now the RX7's - I have a real problem with them on an autocross course. Gawd, I hate the sound of a rotary!

Anyway, please don't try to compare a 14 to 19 year old vehicle that has a hundred thousand miles or more (worth a couple thousand dollars) with a 20 thousand dollar, low mileage, newer vintage car.

There isn't a comparison, it truly is Apples and Oranges!

George Ryan
Performance Director
CFOG-I

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 08-04-2002).]

quote Your C4 'Vettes, 240/260/280 and even 300 ZX's, 1st Gen MR2, and other "sports cars" of that era are not as good at handling (or braking) as the new grocery getters

In 1984 when the C4 Corvette was introduced it was the best handling car in the world. It pulled over 1G on the skidpad with the sport suspension.

Over the next few years they softend the ride for the people who complained it was too stiff, this caused the vette to lose some of its grip pulling high .8's on the skid pad. The Corvette was soon banned from racing events because of its' superior handling and forced to create it's own series of races called the "Challange Series." By the 90's the ZR-1 became the best handling car in the world pulling something like .92 or .94G's By the late 90's the car had loss its crown to better handling cars that were comming from overseas.

The Fiero is a blast to drive and a very fun car, but it's not in the same class as the Corvette. The C4 will out handle any "grocery getter" in the hands of a capable driver.

Ultimetly it's 95% driver and 5% car.

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: Anyway, please don't try to compare a 14 to 19 year old vehicle that has a hundred thousand miles or more (worth a couple thousand dollars) with a 20 thousand dollar, low mileage, newer vintage car. There isn't a comparison, it truly is Apples and Oranges! George Ryan Performance Director CFOG-I [This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 08-04-2002).]

George,

I appreciate your response, but I don't think it's unfair to compare modern cars to old ones. If anything just to learn how things have improved, or in some cases, gotten worse. If one didn't compare old generation cars to new ones, buyers would never know that the 2nd Gen Eclipse is actually a BETTER performer then the 3rd Gen.

I absolutely agree that one shouldn't base their judgement on a cars overall performance by comparing it to a much more modern car. But it's not unfair in an outright to compare them in a fact finding manner.

I don't know. Maybe you took my original post as a flame, which I didn't intend it to be. I hope I clarified it a bit.

Mine's almost stock, and I can hang with almost any cars on street tyres (except 550 and 360 Ferraris for sure.)

Some of us actually replace our tires in 14+ years.
For the drivers, there is no 'contesting'.

PS: that Tibaron is supposed to actually be very respectable, who knew?!

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by artherd: Mine's almost stock, and I can hang with almost any cars on street tyres (except 550 and 360 Ferraris for sure.) Some of us actually replace our tires in 14+ years. For the drivers, there is no 'contesting'. PS: that Tibaron is supposed to actually be very respectable, who knew?! Best! Ben.

Don't you run 18's though? I imagine that combined with even a good tire would help a lot. Any recommendations? I am thinking of getting new rims for mine since 15 inch performance tires are getting harder to find.

A modded Fiero in suspension vs today's cars is not even close really. I don't think there are hardly any cars that can compare. How many people can go up to a stop light turning left and retain a 40-45mph speed and hang a left turn? I don't know of any. Any for anyone with doubts, I take my confidence of handling towards California Kid's 1.17g as my standard. Those numbers are crazy, a Z06 Corvette cant even hang there. Btw is there a method to figure out your G's without a skidpad or anything, I would like to check out my car and see what I can pull. I think I could get it to 1.1 with the right suspension tweaks. Later.

Amir

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1987 GT 5 spd: 2.8L
(15.57 @ 87mph)
1988 Formula 5 spd: 3.4
(15.56 @ 84mph)

quote Originally posted by Rare87GT: A modded Fiero in suspension vs today's cars is not even close really. I don't think there are hardly any cars that can compare. How many people can go up to a stop light turning left and retain a 40-45mph speed and hang a left turn? I don't know of any. Any for anyone with doubts, I take my confidence of handling towards California Kid's 1.17g as my standard. Those numbers are crazy, a Z06 Corvette cant even hang there. Btw is there a method to figure out your G's without a skidpad or anything, I would like to check out my car and see what I can pull. I think I could get it to 1.1 with the right suspension tweaks. Later. Amir

I only wish what you have said were true...

I have a pretty well developed 86Gt , about 5years of work into the suspension, so I consider myself well versed in the handling of fiero's.

I also drive a 03 Impreza TS with 17x5 5zigen wheels and bridgestone PPs03's

Stock for stock the Impreza handles far better. Even if you were to put the pps03's on an 88 , it would still be better.

a tiburon and celica are not as well balanced as a fiero , but do handle well. real world handling isn't skidpads...You can take a chrysler lebbaron drop some koni's and swaybars from a minivan on it and have a car that will pull high G #'s all day.

I know we all love our little cars and like to discuss things , but making a car handle is far more than chopping springs and big tires.

Unless properly measured with very expensive equipment G numbers mean nothing ..espically coming from a Gtec.

I was in Steve Huskins old 85 Gt when he turned 1.25 G's out an offramp on dunlop's. This car is now owned by Chester.

As I said , we all love our cars , but there is a reason there aren't many racing these days , lack of development. I would say without a doubt the best handling fiero ON EARTH would be goerge ryans old Q4 car which is now owned by team python. this exculedes tamandili's fiero hybird.

Put the magazines away and get some real world experience.

thats just my 2 cents , Take it as you will , don't start some flame war.I have had the pleasure of driving a lot of cars, The fiero is good and can be made great , but unfortunatley its not as easy as some people think

It takes years of racing , developing and experience to make any car run at its full potential

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

I We Todd Did , I Sofa King We Todd Did.

What does an F-body do on the skidpad? .2? lol

Keep in mind this .82 with the Fiero is with horrible tires. Some 18s and low profile Pirellis or other performance tires would really help.

Whats the best handling car ive ever driven? and how old was it?

1968 Alfa romeo Gt junior vintage race car.
very well developed car.
it stick to the road (well track) like none other. When it was being raced there was a supercharged heavily modded miata that would JUST beat it out...

How does that compare to my 87 fiero... new dampers, new rubber bushings, poly cradle bushings, big bars and sticky tires... it doesnt my car would have circles driving around it even though mine is 19 years newer and has considerably more power.

The alfa however is horrid to drive on the street so stiff that you litterally get bounced OUT of your seat, it will rip the steering wheel out of your hands at every ripple in the road. The motor doesnt hit its powerband till 5000RPM... oh no creature comforts.

Now if i made the fiero equally unstreetable im sure the handling gap would be closed somewhat but likely not enough, i bet the track times MIGHT be very close because id have more power but id still get out handled... by a 35 year old car.

Oh and for comparison sake our other vintage alfa is probably just shy the handler of my fiero is its a 72(i think) spyder with only slightly modded suspension and a much more civil motor. So in on the track id likely beat it out because of power...

now what does this rambling have to do with todays cars... umm not a whole lot, except to say that a fiero just isnt that great, its good but not great.

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3.4L 87GT

The Fiero is a great handling car. I love the way my 88 tackles the on/off ramps. That is where the car really shines. Were it falls short compared to cars such as the Celica, is in weight. The Celica is far lighter, and therfore far more tossible. If the Fiero did not have so many unnessisary pounds (like swapping an iron V6 for the celica's 1.8 for starters)I beleive it would compare quite well to todays sport compacts.

Well Slammed your reply is true. But what you don't understand is that you can make about any car handle great. But the difference is what it actually can do. I have Held suspension, upper and lower tubular control arms, poly, front and rear sway bars, ryane motorsports coilover shocks, and over $1800 in front suspension mods that were done when I bought the car. Now I consider my car to be one of the best handling Fieros. Yeah any new vehicles can have their shine, but the Fiero does do above average in handling. Like I said above I take my answers from what I have heard with California Kids car. 1.17G, well that is better than a Z06, so you are telling me a Celica can outhandle a Z06? Im not going to argue I just think a Celica would be the last thing on my list of handling cars, lets start off with Miatas and Mr2s and then we are getting somewhere because those cars can outhandle a ton of cars stock.

Hey artherd could you post those videos of you racing your formula again. Those are awesome!

Just what is it exactly that makes the newer cars suspension systems so superior to the fiero suspension? Most of the newer cars have cheap struts like the Subaru Impreza and Toyota Celica! The fiero has an SLA front suspension and the rear (if were talking 88) has a respectable trailing arm suspension. Do the strut type suspensions really have better suspension geometry than the fiero for handling? Don’t most of the higher end sports cars today have SLA suspensions instead of struts like the Corvette, Viper, and 360 Modena?

What if we compare cars that are of similar weight here with rear wheel drive only? The Impreza has all wheel drive giving it a distinct advantage right? The Celica is only something like 2400-2500 lbs.

I also believe the fiero doesn’t do so well in SCCA events because it’s so darn wide. The Miata’s and RX-7 cars are narrower cars making it easer for them to snake around the tight cones. I think the fiero would shine best on a race track where it doesn’t have to swerve around tight cones. I know when I had my fiero I would take corners in that thing faster than I would dare take with any other vehicle I have driven.

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By far the best handling car I have ever driven.
Maybe I haven’t driven a lot of cars to compare it to but it makes me smile.
And it only cost me $650.

I'm sticking to the 95% driver 5% car idea. Right now I could out handle my fiero gt in my 91 cavalier. Why? I havn't got the hang of rwd yet, I have been driving FWD for a lot long, and during my crazy days. I can take the cav to the edge and not lose it, which I learned from my last auto X is more than I can say for the Fiero. Now ask me in a season or two and I will let you know which handles better. A great handling car is worthless is the driver sucks. My first auto X I was within a few seconds of a WRX. Why because he wasn't any good either. Not to get flamed but a fwd car will beat out a similar or even better RWD car anyday in the hands of the adverage joe/jill. The last auto X I went to I was dead last, but it was a lot of guys that are GREAT drivers and experienced. I'll learn someday but it is slow because I've lost the desire to driver my cars to the edge on the street. So, I only get a little track time but I am young and I plan to race in grassroots races for years. Now the Fiero shines at the drag track. The Fiero is a great noivce car at drag tracks. I should know I've had a third and two second place finishes in my class (3rd was out of 18 cars first second was out of 11 and third second was out of 32 cars.) All this is in a 99% stock car, like 66,000 miles and 17 year old sup. The point is bluntly learn to drive YOUR car and you will win a lot more than trying to buy a well handling car.

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85 GT 4 SPD
Accel 8.8mm wires
Accel 300+ Ignition box
Blaster Coil
NGK UR5
K&N
Short Shifter
High flow cat
Monochrome Caracus red
Coulee Region Fieros member
Number 53715 of 76371
Best 1/4 15.816 @ 84.72

i own a 200 neon thats droped 2.5 inchis with Intrax and its got a front sway bar and the fiero still outdoes by far!

I read this thread 2 times over before i could get enough...I know nothing about suspention and i tell you...you guys make it so very interesting.

I believe that if the fiero was made up to par with the other cars which are used as a basis for comparison, its beauty of deisgn would make it far better then most of the cars listed above. It is aerodynamical and distributed unlike 90% of the cars ever made think of the sheer fact of the MID engine...if a lighter weight engine like a 1.8 or something...was placed in it to replace the IRON duke...it would improve alot...again...tires do play a large part (as far as i know)

If it had the same suspention as a RX7 *by some miracle*...i'm sure it would out perform most...why? gas tank position, Light frame, *hopefully* light(er) engine...etc

I believe that it had alot of untapped potential...and only few have the expertiese and funds to show that it could have been.

My 84 2M4 spins out very easliy...but i ageree

95% driver 5% car

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Steven Rossi 4.9 FIERO
Just click the link
http://members.fortunecity.com/bubbajoexx/id208.htm

My fiero is not the best car i have driven I hate to say. I owned a 81 Malibu police package 4 door with a 267 and that thing was on rails. I loved that car dual exhaust and huge sway bars. I could do ANYTHING in that car i'm sorry it's gone. Once I took a corner and I swear this lady sitting at the stop sign saw my tail lights!(dry pavement with 14's) Although I will get better Im surprised though that my car tends to be loose. I thought it would push when I did those off ramps at 85Kmh. Still I want to add 150-200 lbs to the front frame to even it out some more get it 48/52.

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Stock 85 GT 4 speed 2.8

Mine handles well enough to have cost me a set of rear tires (new) in a little over a year when I first got it because I would corner it hard n fast all the time.

With the right rubber nothin but snow has ever made me nervous in my coupe.

I think the main differance between now and then (and same for motorcyles) is that, then required more talent from the driver to truley get the most out of a car or bike, and as we progress it is getting easier and easier to push a car or bike faster and stay in the envelope (ie. more idiot proof).

The down side to that is when you do find the edge of the envelope now there is a whole lota or more HURT in it.

"A dull knife cuts often...a sharp knife cuts DEEPER"

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Little Duce Coupe
"You Don't Know What She Costs"

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: I was in Steve Huskins old 85 Gt when he turned 1.25 G's out an offramp on dunlop's. This car is now owned by Chester.

I can attest that the 85 handles well (so can Boomtastic ). I had to replace the rear struts and put some Koni adjustables back there . Haven't tried it with the Dunlop’s yet but can only imagine. I've pulled a 45 MPH 90 degree turn into my driveway once with a guy from work behind me in the Formula (bone stock except for KYB's). Later that day he came up to me and goes - "God man, that thing handles like crazy! I was expecting you to eat the ditch!" All I can say is the Fiero is one of the best handling cars I've driven. It really blows away the unsuspecting passenger when you take a 25mph off ramp at 60+ .

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No motor - Soon to be a bottle fed 383 V8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension
New web site! www.dirtyratracing.org

As long as we're comparing apples to oranges.. my Fiero outhandles both the '94 Plymouth Voyager AND the '96 Ford Taurus.
Seriously though, it's surprising that the Fiero can hold its own with the newer sports cars. That says something..

quote Originally posted by red85gt: My fiero is not the best car i have driven I hate to say. I owned a 81 Malibu police package 4 door with a 267 and that thing was on rails. I loved that car dual exhaust and huge sway bars. I could do ANYTHING in that car i'm sorry it's gone. Once I took a corner and I swear this lady sitting at the stop sign saw my tail lights!(dry pavement with 14's) Although I will get better Im surprised though that my car tends to be loose. I thought it would push when I did those off ramps at 85Kmh. Still I want to add 150-200 lbs to the front frame to even it out some more get it 48/52.

If the Malibu was outhandling your fiero, you have something SERIOUSLY wrong with the fiero...

I'd say the new grocery getters can handle just as well as the Fiero's of the ol' days. Course.. I understand no one wants to admit that, as we all own, or have owned Fiero's..

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I'd say the new grocery getters can handle just as well as the Fiero's of the ol' days. Course.. I understand no one wants to admit that, as we all own, or have owned Fiero's..

Have you been reading David E Davis Jr's editorial in Automobile again? I still haven't see him show up in a station wagon to back up his words that it would out handle a Fiero.

well, i own a late model saturn and the handling of that car doesnt even touch the handling of my 86se. i think it has a lot more to do with ease of driving. its a lot easier to drive the saturn to its limits, mainly because you KNOW when you're pushing it too far. newer cars really let you know. the fiero REALLY doesnt do that. you can feel confident going around turns at 70-80mph and not know you're about to lose it. i think a lot of the people who feel the fiero doesnt handle well wont push the envelope and really see what this car can do. i used to drive CURVY backroads in BFE at 70-90mph with ease. something my saturn cannot even get close to. also, i've driven a neon, and wtf, they cant handle CLOSE to even a stock fiero. i think what it comes down to is... new cars are easier to drive than fieros, but fieros can and always will(with new parts, lol) handle AMAZING! I've driven a lot of cars, from fwd econoboxes to 300zx tt's, and i think the fiero is one of the best, if not the best handling car i've ever driven, whether its an 88 or not(driven one of those too, i prefer the 84-87 with a rear sway bar, just my taste )

I currently drive a 96 Neon, 88 Fiero and a 94 Probe GT and have to say that although the Fiero has the least power of the three it feels the most planted on the road. I'm sure the ride height has something to do with that but the Fiero lacks the body roll of the Probe GT and the soft suspension of the Neon. It just needs much more power (it's a 2.5 with 3-speed).

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I understand that people are saying that fieros don't handle all that well. What is it about them that makes it so? What in particular about the suspension besides bump-steer on pre88s? I would think they would handle pretty well with new wheels and tires. They have feaures that promote good handling. They are one of the lowest cars around. They are pretty light too. Having more weight in the back is not too bad either, you can put fatter tires in the back, but it's not often people put fatter tires in the front of their car. Besides moving the battery to help with that more. I don't know, my Dad's 2000 cavalier's tires squeel if I take a turn half as hard as with my fiero, and my fiero is a stock '87.