It's rough looking
It needs a suspension over haul
It's loud
The interior is ratty
The tires are junk

But when he got on it ,it was like a drop kick from jesus.

The car went across the mall parking lot sideways in first , I thought I was going to swallow my tongue. He shifted the 4spd to second and it went sideways again , you could hear the holley carb wail as the secondaries opened up.

Pulled out in front of the mall and stood on it , wheel spin , lots of it in 1st through 3rd gear. We were going around 90mph in about 8.5 seconds. I can only imagine what it would be like tuned up

Then the dumbass ran out of gas!! and we walked 2.5kms back to the mall where my un-impressed girlfriend awaited us. We got some gas headed back tot he car and he fired it up. Don't worry Justin Carrie didn't mind

I am in love , forget weiner 6cyls , forget Nitrous , forget slapped on blowers , forget turbo's. This thing was like a guided missle , the sound...Ohhhh what a sound.

She is a 13 mid sec car , all Torque , 100% scary. Can't wait til you get it sorted out Justin , that car is a beast.

Get the gas gauge fixed too!

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 04-21-2002).]

good old detroit iron pushrod V-8's

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Adam J. B.
The search for a GT will never end!
IM AOL: GTFiero & Rumpdetective (dont ask)

Ohhh Baby! I just about blew my wad when I read that post. I'm so psyched about getting my smallblock fiero going.... Jonathan or Grint: How hot is that motor in there?

Thanks JM... For the kind words.

The engine gets hot, but it's fine. You have to keep thermal consideratioins in mind.

Just like on a high performance PC you gotta think about heat, when i'm moving it's never a problem, my hood vent helps a fair bit.

When parked you must keep the fan on constantly though.

The car is 100% adrenaline. It never runs out of it's powerband and it's always in it's powerband or so it feels.

Desktop dyno shows my suspicions, 2000 RPM is where hte power takes off

As soon as I get some webspace I will be doing a video.

Hey Grint, how do you have the Car insured?

So are you gonna go v-8 now Jonathan?? I wish I could but just can't afford what I want, nor do I feel I have the skill to do it right.

And it sounds like you have one hell of a beast there Justin! Just get the rest of the car up to par with the engine and you will be all set!

------------------

1987GT *for sale*, or trade, PM me for details.

I meant "hot" like power-wise. Can you give the specs on the engine?

Sweet! This got me pumpin'! Got a V8 goin in soon myself. I CAN"T WAIT !

Rob D.

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Modified 2.8 (Soon to be a 350 TPI V8 )
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

[This message has been edited by chester (edited 04-21-2002).]

V8 Fiero, there's just NO substitute!

Knew you'd be hooked JM. Now all you've gotta do is pick your 8 !

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by chester: Sweet! This got me pumpin'! Got a V8 goin in soon myself. I CAN"T WAIT ! Rob D.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by David Bartlett: Hey Grint, how do you have the Car insured?

Currently as a Fiero until I can get an apprasial done then I will see what they say (eek!)

is it going to be a daily driver? , how many MPG?

For now it's a daily driver until I can get a beater. I have considered fixing it up and selling it.... TOO MUCH power.

MPG? Not too much worse than my v6 actually... My 87GT v6 with the changed TQ on the auto, and the cam, and whatnot was pretty bad, havn't noticed much difference.

how are you felling about the 4:10 behind it? if i ever figure out what my two extra 4 speeds are i'll want one on an all recreational car.

Congrats! I know exactly how you feel! Nothing like a mid engine V8. Depending on the year the car is you may be able to insure it with "Silverwheels" I've got a quote from them for the Ferrari for under $200 a year, full coverage. They specialize in antique and special interest cars, and you'll need an appraisal but it is well worth it. The car has to be at least 15 years old, and the real break in price comes at 25 years (which is me)www.lant-ins.ca Give them a try.

If I get the car ready by the end of summer we'll see each other at Burlington. Later!

MPG? Not too much worse than my v6 actually... My 87GT v6 with the changed TQ on the auto, and the cam, and whatnot was pretty bad, havn't noticed much difference.[/B][/QUOTE]

Maybe because your gas gauge is broken

Sounds like an awesome ride. Actually considering buying Archie's Economy (manual) kit now. Have been dreaming of a 4.9 swap but i think i may just have to go sbc. Don't like the idea of a 4:10 so will stick the stock 3:65 tranny. Need to do some research now...

Oh, did i forget to tell you? Grinthock may be down to give me a ride this weekend...

Now i'm not gonna be able to sleep!

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Silver 86 GT
no truck, no trailer, no spray!

The 4:10 is too low.... I would rather have the 3:65 for sure.

1st gear is ALL wheelspin.

I might like the 4:10 if I could get better tires.

quote Originally posted by AkursedX: So are you gonna go v-8 now Jonathan?? I wish I could but just can't afford what I want, nor do I feel I have the skill to do it right. And it sounds like you have one hell of a beast there Justin! Just get the rest of the car up to par with the engine and you will be all set!

I think the V8 is the way to go for smiles per hour. Would have to have a crate motor . Fast burn 385 with a carb to start. Unfortunatley GM dis continued the zz430 , but you can build it using a zz4 , the LT4 "Hot" cam and 1.6 rockers , this gives you 430hp and a butt load of Tq. Either motor would be fine with me. I wouldn't choke of a zz4 witha TPI , Rather run a carb , not as fancy , but a more efficient power delivery in this case.

I have the suspension , I have the brakes , need a LSD or phantom grip, or it would be useless in an autocross. My 2.8 which is bone stock needs a LSD , on a switch back I can light up the inside wheel, you don't really notice the difference a LSD makes until you drive the same course in a car that has it. I jumped from the Fiero to our 911 RS with a 40% LSD and it was amazing how it would come off the corners, it was pulling up the front wheel ,perfect power delivery , rear weight bias and good traction. The same corner the Fiero would just spin the inside wheel , ie lose time.

I really think (personally) to take on such a project isn't that difficult , espically considering the # of poeple who have done it. It's affording the right parts for the task. I could build a cheap iron head 350 carb'd car and smoke the tires all day long , but I want something I can run at the track hard. This means buying archies basic kit and adding alot of heavy duty parts.

Hopefully this winter I will get the old v6 out and get a Basic archie kit and start colecting parts. Im fortunate to have quite a few friends who are GM dealers , crate motors at low low prices. Put it this way , you pay $3900 US for a Fast Burn 385 , I pay $3900 Canadian for the same motor.

But...all in due time.

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

There is a couple things that you didn't consider, Jonathan.

For straight line, or the 1/4 mile, the engines worked to the numbers you are talking would be fine. (Or for terrorizing Ricers).

But for autocross?? First consider weight. The cast iron SBC is over 200lbs heavier than the 4.9. Think about it - - that much more weight than your 2.8 hanging out a couple inches to the right of where your engine is right now. How do you suppose you will get that to handle as well as your Fiero does as it sits?

Yeah, you have the suspension, etc, as you stated. But throw it away and start dialing in all over if you go with a small block.

Stiffer springs, - - naw - - the front to rear ratio is so far off it still is not balanced (sorta like my Q4, only in reverse).
As you know, I spent thousands on the suspension on the Q4 to get it balanced. I had removed so much weight that the corner weights were far away from balanced. The front-to-rear ratio was 62/38, cross corners were off, just couldn't chassis tune it very well. You would have the same problem, only on the heavy side with a SBC!!

My SE is balanced right now. The handling is phenomenal - - the 4.9 is a perfectly balanced combo. Ask the several drivers that drove Ed's car in an autocross (nobody else has driven mine in competition yet, not even my wife!). The 4.9 may not generate the power you are talking about, but you can drive it as a momentum car (with that torque available whenever you want), instead of the point-and-shoot style of the SBC Fiero in an autocross.

Sure wish there was a lot somewhere that we could put the R-1's on and let you drive my SE next weekend!!

There is an autocross about 60 miles south of Ed's on Sunday - - - - -. Hmmm.

G

The Northstar does have basically zero-weight-gain over a 2.8

I haven't actually had any problems with wheelspin in my 2.8 car. Infact, I can't *get* them to spin at all. I suspect Silver will be different though, and I'll be tagging after that VW modified 6-speed transverse gearbox with LSD before long (the getrag will be my weak point, what with a solid dirveline, mounts, a clutch rated at *1,150lb-ft*, 265 or as high as 305 tyres on 10" rims, and no flywheel...

PS: I think the aluminum head 350s only gain ~100lbs... but then agian, the Fiero is so sensative that I can *really* feel a 70lb battery in the bottom of the trunk...

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 04-22-2002).]

I AM DUMB!

[This message has been edited by artherd (edited 04-22-2002).]

Hey JM, a ZZ430 is NOT a ZZ4 with a HOT cam & rockers. It's a Fast Burn 385 with a HOT cam & rockers. And FI systems do exist for the FB engines that will not choke those very free-flowing heads. Yes, they're expensive.

George, I think the a$$-end of a 4.9 needs to be weighed against an aluminum-headed SBC at a dragstrip or truck scale to back up your "200lbs heavier" assertion before you go stating it as fact. It's about half that much based on my research in GM literature of aluminum vs. iron V8 blocks. And even a simple understanding of vehicle dynamics tells me that since that extra weight is in the middle of the car, its effect is negligible on handling, even less substantial than the difference between a 180lb driver and a 280lb driver (who sits on the left side of the car). Not to mention that the battery gets relocated to the front to offset it.

Dave

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- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- Black '88 GT 5-speed ZZ430TPI at Archie's
- '87 & '98 Corvette Coupes

quote Originally posted by crazyd: Hey JM, a ZZ430 is [b]NOT a ZZ4 with a HOT cam & rockers. It's a Fast Burn 385 with a HOT cam & rockers. And FI systems do exist for the FB engines that will not choke those very free-flowing heads. Yes, they're expensive. George, I think the a$$-end of a 4.9 needs to be weighed against an aluminum-headed SBC at a dragstrip or truck scale to back up your "200lbs heavier" assertion before you go stating it as fact. It's about half that much based on my research in GM literature of aluminum vs. iron V8 blocks. And even a simple understanding of vehicle dynamics tells me that since that extra weight is in the middle of the car, its effect is negligible on handling, even less substantial than the difference between a 180lb driver and a 280lb driver (who sits on the left side of the car). Not to mention that the battery gets relocated to the front to offset it. Dave [/B]

Scogin dickey makes a manifold that allows you to bolt a tpi system onto the fast burn heads. Can you provide some details of your injection system?

Thanks!

JM

An aluminum head does decrease the overall weight of the SBC, but it is still on a cast iron block.

Even the racing aluminum SBC's weigh as much as the 4.9 street motor. At 360#, the 4.9 actually weighs MORE than 200 pounds lighter than a SBC (cast heads) at 575#. These weights were the result of actual engines being put on the same scale by Tom Hill. Both engines were in identical dress: i.e. - ready to install (manifolds, alternator, a/c compressor, etc.). Problem is - the Bowtie bunch has a hard time accepting those weights!!

Also, Ben is correct, the N* is about the same weight as the aluminum head SBC at 460lbs (also an actual measurement, in ready to install condition).

I won't argue with you about weight distibution, but I can tell you I have played with a Fiero with ballast, corner weights, and everything else for the last umpteen years trying to balance out an unbalanced car. The weight of any engine in a Fiero will put more weight on the rear axle than on the front, the heavier the engine the larger the disparity.

Jonathan, all I can do is share my experiences, and invite you to at least try my world. Since you have never experienced a 4.9 - - why not give it a shot? Especially on an autocross course. It doesn't have the power you experienced, admittedly, but will handle a whole lot better on course. (All IMHO, of course )

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-22-2002).]

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: An aluminum head does decrease the overall weight of the SBC, but it is still on a cast iron block. Even the racing aluminum SBC's weigh as much as the 4.9 street motor. At 360#, the 4.9 actually weighs MORE than 200 pounds lighter than a SBC (cast heads) at 575#. These weights were the result of actual engines being put on the same scale by Tom Hill. Both engines were in identical dress: i.e. - ready to install (manifolds, alternator, a/c compressor, etc.). Problem is - the Bowtie bunch has a hard time accepting those weights!! Also, Ben is correct, the N* is about the same weight as the aluminum head SBC at 460lbs (also an actual measurement, in ready to install condition). I won't argue with you about weight distibution, but I can tell you I have played with a Fiero with ballast, corner weights, and everything else for the last umpteen years trying to balance out an unbalanced car. The weight of any engine in a Fiero will put more weight on the rear axle than on the front, the heavier the engine the larger the disparity. Jonathan, all I can do is share my experiences, and invite you to at least try my world. Since you have never experienced a 4.9 - - why not give it a shot? Especially on an autocross course. It doesn't have the power you experienced, admittedly, but will handle a whole lot better on course. (All IMHO, of course ) G [This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-22-2002).]

Unfortunatley (as of today) I won't be able to be at the swap meet this weekend. I have a class that is running until sunday, I will be in class all weekend (boo)

The only thing that really concerns me with the 4.9 is the lack of rpm's. With a 4spd it will make the car a dead mule on the highway , turing over high rpm's @ 75mph. It is a very attractive swap , espically since it does not require a lot of money. I was under the impression that a SBC swapped into a fiero would add 80Lbs , 40 of this can be offset by moving the battery to the front.

The Fiero is a heavy car , but not that bad. I run in ASP up in Canada , adding a v8 won't change the class I am in . The SBC does weigh more than a 4.9 , but you have to wonder if the weight trade off is worth it. The SBC has a huge aftermarket, the 4.9 has none.

But as I have said before , I am on the fence about engine conversions. I love TQ , the first autocross car I had time in was an L98 vette (we still have it) The L98's tq curve is pretty much identical to that of the 4.9's. But alas the L98 pukes at 5600rpm and has an OD tranny , the 4.9 redlines at about 5200 and only has 4 gears.

More to ponder I guess

JM

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 04-22-2002).]

1985 Fiero 4 cylinder coupe....Before Weight...

The same Fiero after a SBC conversion, 350 CI with Cast iron heads and alum. intake.

Archie

If I read those right, it was supposed to be 2628 before, 2780 after??

My math says that is a hundred and ninety two pounds heavier.

I don't know what the 4.9 would weigh in a 4 cylinder coupe, but I do know what it and a cast iron head SBC weigh from flywheel forward (both in the same configuration), 380 and 575 pounds respectively.

I do know that a cast iron head SBC is a boat compared to the nimbler 4.9 on an autocross course, which is what I was trying to tell JM.

I know - - let's weigh my SE against a Fiero with the SBC at the swap meet!!

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-22-2002).]

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: My math says ......

Maybe that's what the problem has been all along

MY MATH says 160 pound difference.

Archie

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: At 360#, the 4.9 actually weighs MORE than 200 pounds lighter than a SBC (cast heads) at 575#. These weights were the result of actual engines being put on the same scale by Tom Hill. Both engines were in identical dress: i.e. - ready to install (manifolds, alternator, a/c compressor, etc.).!!

Did the SBC being weighed have an aluminum intake? Cast manifolds?

What is the weight difference of aluminum vs Cast iron heads?? 20 Lbs??

JM

C'mon Archie - -

I am not disbelieving you. But on the same plane, I do not disbelieve Tom, either. As Pontiac Addict pointed out, there could be different setups here, and other things at play.

I did put a smiley in my post somewhere, didn't I?? Anyway, to respond to a couple points.

My car has the front suspension modded with the usual shock, spring, bushing, swaybar mods. The rear has an '88 cradle with just bushings, and the required "coil-over' adjustable perch strut (oh, and the adapter plate to make it fit). My weight is as a stock Fiero. With the 4.9 and 5 speed, it might weigh 10 or 15 pounds more than it did as a 4 speed V6 SE, but that's all. I did not weigh it before the swap, so to weigh it now would accomplish nothing!

Frankly, I could care less about the weights. My post was in answer to somebody that has a 2.8 dialed in, his car is awesomely well set up. The 4.9 - - be it 10 pounds or a thousand pounds lighter than the SBC of your choice, is the same weight as the 2.8. His car - - as it is now - - would do quite well on a racetrack or autocross course with a 4.x engine. All that, without having to sink $ into re-doing his suspension to make the different weight work - at least to make it work as well as his car does now.

There was no slam against any SBC meant. However, an unbalanced car IS an unbalanced car. It would take a complete fresh dialing-in experience with springs, shocks, etc. to make his car work as well as it does now were he to install a SBC (or a 3.8, for that matter). That all would be totally unneccessary with the 4.9. He could leave his suspension exactly as it is, and drive his car in the exact same manner, except he would have the extra torque to pull him out of a corner. That's what I said, that's what I meant.

I merely suggest that for Jonathan to make assertations about the 4.9 (as he did) without ever having experienced one - - especially after only having a straight line adrenaline rush with the SBC - - was not quite a fair comparison.

But I guess I will shut up now. You have spoken, and I heard the clap of thunder that accomanied your voice. (Another smiley - - - see!!).

Since you think I am being unfair about the SBC, I guess the first drink is on me (just figuratively, I hope!!)

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 04-22-2002).]

I think for serious autocrossing the 4.9 is the way to go , until someone can figure out how I can put my 3.5ltr Buick V8 into the car (320Lbs). But the idea of making a SBC work is intriguing...

The Small block was brutal , I have ridden in some fast cars , but that scared the sh** out of me. I would put it in the same league as a LT1 vette. The engine wasn't anything special. It's a mid 80's F-body 350 with smog heads (iron) and a carb, probably in the neighbourhood of 250 or so HP. Very Similar setup to BBBaaaDGT's old car. It launched really hard and the suspension is in need of help as are the tires.

If you can make a 3300Lbs vette work , why not a 2700Lbs Fiero? The suspenion is certianly a hurdle , but its all a learning process isn't it?

Has anyone seriously autocrossed a 350SBC car. I have seen a stock looking 84 coupe come out about 6 years ago , 383 stroker. The car was horrbile in the autocross. 14" wheels with white letter tires didn't help the situation much.

I guess the main issue is the purpose of the car. Do I slap in a small block for giggles , go buy some R compounds for the vette and make it my autocrosser. Or do I put in a 4.9 and get some R compounds...

I need a 4.9 near by...

JM

[This message has been edited by Slammed Fiero (edited 04-22-2002).]

I also think JM that the ride in my SBC didn't give it fair justice though. The car itself isn't up to snuff yet, cradle needs work, tuning, tires.

If I had great tires on it you would have felt the launch, so find a GOOD v8 install that's complete before you make your decision.

I get the Jist of the SBC Fiero , and George is right , the 4.9 is better for autocrossing. I could put it in and leave the suspension pretty much as is. With a 350 I will have to work a few things out , but thats nothing new for me.

But I am greedy , I like gobs of HP , I know the Fiero will never be the fastest thing on the autocross course , but it will be quick , fun and respectable. The problem some people run into is they dump piles of money into the car , expecting a world beater , and never realize there dream. After a while there is only so far you can go with a car. IT's better to realize this early on , then spend thousands on development. Very few cars from days gone by can keep with technology.

The quick fact is that weight causes problems at the limits. So if I put a SBC into my car I can't expect it to handle as well as it does with the 2.8. There has to be some point though where power over comes weight and handling loss. basically a point where you have enough HP , that it makes up for the extra weight. If archies slips are accurate ,it's not that much of a gain , and it certianlly can be brought down. 160Lbs gain on a 4cyl to 8cyl , that gain must drop substantially when it's a 6 to an 8. less than 100Lbs?

JM

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Jonathan McCreery

Extra HP *will* help stick a car to the ground, I spun in turn 6 (The carousel) because I ran out of power in 3rd (yes, I was cooking, about 85mph, there was a wide runoff

What's my point? I don't have one, other than power is good, but weight bad.

I couldn't deal with a 5200rpm redline though, 6grand redline in my 2.8 just kills me

Best!
Ben

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

My rev limiter is at 5800, my shift light at 5500. No appreciable valve float, although when I drove Ed's auto, just before shift there was a slight float on his. Maybe that's also one of the differences between the 305 ECM (mine) and the stock Cad ECM (Ed's).

Of course, I don't watch the tach - - that's why I have a shift light in the first place! Even so, I hardly notice the difference in sound between my sons Camaro at 6200 and mine at 5500.

I guess your ear is just finer tuned than mine, Ben - - .

G

quote Originally posted by Slammed Fiero: If archies slips are accurate ,it's not that much of a gain , and it certianlly can be brought down. 160Lbs gain on a 4cyl to 8cyl , that gain must drop substantially when it's a 6 to an 8. less than 100Lbs? JM

Add aluminum heads to the equation, too.
According to Archie's FAQ the weight difference between a 4 cylinder and SBC is about 150lbs (he measuered 160lbs above, so that's very close) and the difference on a V6 car is about 85 pounds. Now, use an engine with aluminum heads, and I believe you save about 40lbs - making that about a 45lbs gain over the V6. Don't forget that's total vehicle weight and you're moving a 30lb battery to the front of the car.

Ok, I know these figures aren't exact, but if they're anywhere near close, I'm not seeing some drastic problem with weight. Yes, a lighter engine is better, but with proper rear springs, I don't see this as a big issue. Of course, in competition the smallest change can be a big issue - so your mileage may vary.

I would be interested in before/after weight comparisons of a V6 vs. an Aluminum Head SBC broken down to front and rear weight. That would give a better idea about how handling will be affected.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I would be interested in before/after weight comparisons of a V6 vs. an Aluminum Head SBC broken down to front and rear weight. That would give a better idea about how handling will be affected.

Gee, I suggested that my 4.9 be compared to a SBC in a message above, and Archie had a problem with that (see his last posting). So, I would guess the same could be said for your theory.

You see, I can weigh a car before an engine swap, and again after. I can change a lot of things besides engine, for example I can take an automatic out of the original, and put a lighter 4 speed in. I can even take out an interior, or weigh the before with a spare tire and the after without. Hell, my R-1 racing tires are a couple pounds each lighter than the street tires I am running, so there's 8 or 9 pounds I can change the overall weight by, just by putting the right combo on.

I can do a lot of things to make the numbers read the way I want when I measure the same car "before and after" a swap.So much for that method!!

Why not just weigh the 2 engines in identical configuration, as Tom Hill did?
Wouldn't that give you the needed info?

G