Gaze into the crystal ball and see the future. See the outcome of Terry's income.
LOL
only if I could have put a Fiero inside it.

[This message has been edited by stsmithgt (edited 02-27-2002).]

[This message has been edited by stsmithgt (edited 02-27-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Archie: Ok, Terry...... When you were alternately claiming that you worked, didn't work, partially owned etal The Fiero Shop what was your plan for explaining yourself when the truth of your Fiero Shop connection came out? Why were you not truthful in what you told PFF about your relationship with the Fiero Shop from the beginning? Thanks Archie

Ok, well I'm figuring that Terry wants to read thru ALL of the posts on all of Georges resent threads before he responds to this question.

So just hang on..... I'm sure he's working on it.

Archie

Archie,

It really isn't about "worked" or "didn't work" - what I always said was that I had no legal or financial responsibility for Fiero Shop. Didn't have it and didn't want it. The fact is, it is George Miller dba Fiero Shop.

As for the claim that I was a part owner, new owner or anything of a sort - well, that was another statement of one who cannot distinguish between fact and fantasy.

I don't even have to read one of the posts to know what is truth and what is not. I do tell the truth Archie, always have and always will, that's why it is easy to remember what I have said.......

quote Originally posted by tgowens: Archie, It really isn't about "worked" or "didn't work" - what I always said was that I had no legal or financial responsibility for Fiero Shop. Didn't have it and didn't want it. The fact is, it is George Miller dba Fiero Shop. As for the claim that I was a part owner, new owner or anything of a sort - well, that was another statement of one who cannot distinguish between fact and fantasy. I don't even have to read one of the posts to know what is truth and what is not. I do tell the truth Archie, always have and always will, that's why it is easy to remember what I have said.......

Your wrong, THIS IS ABOUT "worked" or "didn't work" You've shown us a document that makes it clear that you WORKED there..... EVERY employee has a financial stake in the place where he works, & thus a conflict of interest when endorsing that business while at the same time claiming no connection to that business.

I seem to remember some product endorsements that gave the distinct impression of coming from a person with no connection to TFS. I remember several signatures that had clear implications that there were ties into TFS.

I think a lot of other people here remember it the same way. There have been a LOT of posts in these threads from people who have the same interpetition of your past statements and actions in this regard.

AND this IS about whether you "worked" or "didn't work" there..... A product endorsement by an employee that claims to NOT be an employee is a lie (I hate to say that word here but there is no other way to say it) and it is a conflict of interest.

Whether your name was on ownership papers or not doesn't matter, the way you represented yourself here while endorsing TFS products & services is what matters to us.

NOW.... I don't want to be rude about this, (I feel that at some point you can put this behind you) but this is your chance to come clean on this issue. Before this becomes a pi$$ing match where we start pulling quotes out of the Archives, you have this chance to admit that you intentionally mis-led all of us about your true relationship to TFS. This is your chance to draw the line between the old Terry and the new Terry.

Everybody here realizes how an employee can say some of the stuff you said thinking that it was for the good of the business. I know that when I've worked for others', I've tried to help those businesses out by saying things that I might not have said had I not worked there. That's happened to everybody.

Please, for your own good admit that some of your past statements were a conflict of interest. At this point we are all cheering for you, it's time to help yourself.

Now, with this post I've done everything I can to give you a doorway out of this whole TFS thing..... please use it.

Regards

Archie

Well I dont know to much about all of this, just what I have read, but since that guy named George hasn't said anymore, then I guess it is over now, right?

.

[This message has been edited by pherder (edited 03-20-2002).]

quote Originally posted by SteveJ: . . .wait, wait, I'm gunna make a beer run. . . Anybody want munchies while I'm out?

Yea yea. Git me a twix and some goobers...

Thanks Terry for clearing this (theft of property thing) all up (in my mind anyway) !!! George has got to be crazy to persue this any farther.....looks like he still owes you !!!

NOW...The damned if I did, damned if I didn't question ..............

Seems to me....that #1 George offered you a job and you took it ....#2 You went to Cali to work for him (defending him ... promoting his stuff....real time labor... etc.) and then promptly never got paid ..... #3 If an employer don't pay then your not working for them ..Right ?

This issue must have been pretty confusing to you and not just to everyone else out here in Fieroland.

[This message has been edited by 2M4 Dale (edited 02-28-2002).]

quote NOW.... I don't want to be rude about this, (I feel that at some point you can put this behind you) but this is your chance to come clean on this issue. Before this becomes a pi$$ing match where we start pulling quotes out of the Archives, you have this chance to admit that you intentionally mis-led all of us about your true relationship to TFS. This is your chance to draw the line between the old Terry and the new Terry.

Terry, it's not to late to save your soul. The good minister Archie, of the Church of Fiero Truth, is calling you to the pulpit. Repent! Repent! It's not to late to make it into Fiero Heaven!

Heh heh. Amen.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: ...It's not to late to make it into Fiero Heaven!

Ummm... I think Fiero Heaven went out of business about a year ago...

2M4 Dale hit it right on the head on all three points. And that's the way it happened.

However, it is not necessary to "work" for an establishment in order to "endorse" their products, Archie. I have a Herb Adams sway bar on one of my '87s and I love it and would recommend it to anyone as well as the Eibach springs I have on that same car - now that doesn't mean that I work for Eibach or Moroso (Herb Adams sway bar). I have promoted your products to others too but I don't work for you.

Everybody seems to want to get hung up on the technicalities of this issue (is it a question of whether I worked for George or with him?).....- here it is simply, as I have stated before - I had no financial or legal responsibility for the shop nor could I, or did I, make decisions concerning the operations of the shop. While I may "endorse" a product or attempt to promote a business by suggesting that others avail themselves of their products or services it doesn't matter whether I work there or not - case in point - I have recommend your parts and services to others but I don't work for you any more than I work for Eibach and I have their springs on my car and recommend them highly. Being at Fiero Shop doesn't make me an employee any more than you standing in your garage makes you a car....

There is far more to this story and I will not get into it here - just try to accept what I have presented you with to this point and let this go -- I have done nothing illegal nor have I ever attempted to mislead anyone -- no one here (well, a few of you might) knows the reasons behind my leaving FS and maybe it's better left that way. I made a concious choice to leave based on the situation I was in.

I think what archie meant was (and correct me if i'm wrong) that the promissory note showed that you were owed wages. that implies, if not plainly states, that you worked for him. if you earned wages there, you pretty much worked for him. but i personally don't think that makes any difference whatsoever. if you were owed it and have the documentation to prove it then i don't see how it is theft, unless there is more to it. either way, i think the fieroshop has lost any and all credibility that it had, at least on this forum.

If you get paid for doing services for someone, then you are working for them or have contracted out to them for work which they owe you payment for.
Either way, you can't say "(is it a question of whether I worked for George or with him?)" as he owes you payment for working in the shop.
Also, George is now saying on the e-mail lists:
"....he has posted a contract that would be good had I given and
signed off on the parts. Instead he has taken them without permission
and was also tod by somebody else not to take them.
As far as getting my parts back it is up to me to honor the sale and I
will honor it. I do not have to take them back per the pd over here.
I just want to find out what he has sold and for how much and that info
will be turned over to the police.
He also stole my roll away tool box and was told by me to not take it.
I will be looking at all the shipments that went from here during the
month of Nov., dec Jan and feb. I will be able to contact all these
people and get the info that way as well. I am asking for help to save
time.
I am still going to honor all sales that he has done which is as far as
I am concerned the only thing to do.
As far as that contract I will ask Terry where is my copy as I have
never had one and do not have one in my possession.
The man is a thief and an embezzler.
Enough said".

Though I think Terry was owed payment of some kind, it is possible that George wanted to approve what Terry took in payment, and not just have him start taking whatever he wanted.
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't it sound like now George is saying he has never seen this document before? If so, George would be saying that Terry made up the contract on his own and forged Georges name. Either George is wanting to have convenient memory loss, or Terry is in bigger trouble with forgery issues.

The plot thickens

EDIT - double post

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 02-28-2002).]

The thing a lot of people are missing is that you can't just take stuff from people even if they do owe you money! The old Peoples Court saying is true: "don't take the law into your own hands you take em to court." That IS what the law is. If a shope owes you money you just can't waltz in and take whatever you think will square you. Even with a contract the owner has to give you permission to take the items unless they are noted SPECIFICALLY on the contract or promisary note. The Fiero that is specifically listed on the contract is something Terry can take because it is listed with a vin number and everything.
The "parts" are not and neither is the the tool box. Please note that i'm certainly NOT taking TFS's side because, as someone already stated, i wouldn't trust EITHER one of them as far as i could throw a Fiero.

------------------
Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts
86 GT modified
85 SE daily driver

quote Originally posted by tgowens: 2M4 Dale hit it right on the head on all three points. And that's the way it happened.

OK, so let's see, you DID go to work for George. But you DIDN'T get paid, so you DIDN'T work for George. But now you've been paid (via parts and cash per your scanned document) So you DID work for George.

I'm confused.

quote Originally posted by tgowens: However, it is not necessary to "work" for an establishment in order to "endorse" their products,

That's right, but when you DO work there, but denigh working there while endorsing their products, that's what the issue is here. The issue is not whether you were working "With" or "For".

quote Originally posted by tgowens: 2M4 I have promoted your products to others too but I don't work for you.

That's correct, you don't work for me. If a non-employee endorses my stuff, then everyone knows he has no "vested interest" in my success or failure. His endorsement carries much more creditability that if an employee DOES work here and yet claims he DOESN'T work here as he makes that endorsement.

You made endorsements and claims as to the suitability of TFS products while you has ties to that business & while claiming you DIDNOT have ties to that business.

Some people took you at your word in those endorsements and were hurt, in part, by your concealing of the facts.

There is a big difference.

quote Originally posted by tgowens: Everybody seems to want to get hung up on the technicalities of this issue.....

That's why you should provide PFF with an idea of WHY you made endorsements flat out trying to mis-represent you actual relationship to those products.

Terry, you're a smart person..... you know what the issue is here. It appears that you'd rather skirt around the issue by trying to devert it to a question of ownership etc., rather than to address the issue directly and honestly.

If you can live with that then I guess the rest of us will have to still have that little bit of doubt everytime you endorse something.

I'm truely sorry that you have decided to handle this by continuing to denigh that you worked for TFS while claiming that you didn't.

I'm sure you are happy to see that George has gone to bat for you. That could make some people wonder if there is still some kind of connection there.

Archie

BTW, George.... Think of me often.

fieroshp@pacbell.net

Looks like George got one of those internet package rebate specials? This is where you buy a particular brand computer, a fine fine quality Packard Bell in this case, and if you sign up with there internet server they give you a rebate back of a few hundred or so bucks.
Looks like a lot of rebating has been going on lately at the Fieroshop

A lot of you out there in Fieroland know me (2M4 Dale)from here and from ebay. A lot of you have done business with me and I have done a lot of businees with you and from what I can tell I have a pretty good rep with most of if not all of Y'all ! I am a stand up kinda guy and I'm tellin' Y'all Terry didn't forge anything !!! George is an a$$. I know Terry personally and this is all just a bunch of BS. Terry is an outstanding individual whom is hard not to like. His writng can seem dry and to the point but to talk with him face to face is an entirely different matter. George is in the habit of ripping people off....he was trying to rip Terry off. Terry did what he did as a matter of self preservation ! And this is the only way to deal with George. I really wish Terry would would give Y'all the whole story.......but.....due to his sense of self esteem...he has choosen to keep some of this stuff private...between him and George....unlike George !!! Who chooses to air his dirty laundry on a public forum.

If Terry wanted too he could totally "NUKE" George !!! Terry don't work that way. But as far as I know George will never...can never afford to file any charges against anyone !!!

I can tell you that I've had a good number of interactions with Dale (business and personal) and he is a stand up guy. I don't really know what's going on with Terry and George but I'll take Dales word for it that there is much more to it than Terry is telling.

------------------
Jeff
AOL IM : Only2xsess

Visit My Website

OK, let's see.... The title of this thread, Terry's thread, says "If you want to know the other side of the story?"
So now, he is not wanting to tell his side, the other side, all of it?
I don't get it. If there is more to tell, then tell it or shut up.

Geeze how tough is it to tell the whole side of your story Terry? Or is their some additional info that Terry's afraid to tell, in essence still has something to hide?

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: fieroshp@pacbell.net Looks like George got one of those internet package rebate specials? This is where you buy a particular brand computer, a fine fine quality Packard Bell in this case, and if you sign up with there internet server they give you a rebate back of a few hundred or so bucks. Looks like a lot of rebating has been going on lately at the Fieroshop

pacbell is the local phone company, and the cheapest and easiest provider of DSL. George has pac bell DSL and so do I. My email is fierodsl@pacbell.net. For some reason, they only allow an 8 character prefix (before the @ symbol). That's part of the reason I used "fierodsl" instead of something better.

Man....you guys....none of this should've been made public. There are issues that ARE none of our business...just that some of those things would help clear this subject up.

At some point in time you all will draw your own lines and choose to believe someone or no one........We should just let this go to it's death bed and let Terry and George work out their problems and let Terry and Archie work out their problems and continue doing what we all do best....ENJOY our Brotherhood of Fierodom.....I'm tired of it all..I'm gonna go work on my Fiero !!!!

Guys: My impression is that Terry was between a rock and a hard place. It could be that he defended George when he probably shouldn't have, but the situation may have been too precarious not to - in other words, statements that seemed contradictory being made in the interests of self-preservation.

quote Originally posted by Archie: before this becomes a pi$$ing match where we start pulling quotes out of the Archives

I don't know the specific history of events and statements you are refering to, Archie, but my searches did not turn up anything earth-shattering. Nobody is going to mind if you bring up archived quotes that illustrate your point, because it's all public record. So if it will help, go ahead.

It just really looks to me like Terry got out of the hard place, and doesn't see it necessary to pound on the rock. If his principles mean more to him than his image, that's to be commended, and it won't matter what any of us say or think. Maybe now that he's moved on, we can judge him on his actions from this point forward.

Archie,
I don't see your point. I've never seen tgowens represent himself as an impartial customer. What difference does it make if he was an employee, working with George or just using the shop? It seems any of these would cause a similar lack of objectivity that should have been taken into account by anyone else.

"pacbell is the local phone company, and the cheapest and easiest provider of DSL. George has pac bell DSL and so do I. My email is fierodsl@pacbell.net. For some reason, they only allow an 8 character prefix (before the @ symbol). That's part of the reason I used "fierodsl" instead of something better."

That makes more sense, as I know that Packard Bell had been bought out by NEC quite awhile back.
Well, at least that issue got cleared up.
Looks like almost everyone else is still waiting for a certain somebody to clear up another issue

Terry, are you going to drop the other shoe?

quote Originally posted by Fiero5: OK, let's see.... The title of this thread, Terry's thread, says "If you want to know the other side of the story?" So now, he is not wanting to tell his side, the other side, all of it? I don't get it. If there is more to tell, then tell it or shut up. Geeze how tough is it to tell the whole side of your story Terry? Or is their some additional info that Terry's afraid to tell, in essence still has something to hide?

I have stayed out of these threads out of respect for Terry. However, I do not believe any of this is any of our business. Just because George feels that he has to air his dirty laundry out in public does not mean Terry must reply to it. I assume the reason why Terry started this thread was to let us all know that the charges the George has implied or unfounded and untrue. I understand Archie's point in wanting to know what the previous relationship between Gearge and Terry was because of Terry's previous actions; however, it may be that there is some information that we are not (or Should not) be privleged to.
I have only had a few dealings with George from the early beginnings of CFOG-I, since then we have parted ways with him for numerous reasons. There is a lot more information that everybody here is not aware of and weather you like it or not you may never hear about it. The reason for that is that it is none of our business.

You may now return to your regular programming. Sorry to be so blunt. Don't flame me to bad.

Vince

------------------

CFOG-I | GTA Fiero Club

See how this just goes on and on?? When are you all going to realize that George has nothing but words? He was furnished a copy of that document but like many other documents, he simply "can't find it" - that's a convenient out for him.

The fact of the tool box - I was given that tool box by George when he got his new one - no stipulations such as "you can use it until I get another" or anything of a sort - simply, it was given to me and at that point it became mine to leave or take as I saw fit. Just like the '87 coupe that is sitting out front - I bought it as a parts car and since it was mine it was my choice what to do with it - I chose to leave it.

George's own quote on another list should tell you what this is all about - he said "he has posted a contract that would be good had I given and signed off on the parts. Instead he has taken them without permission" - his signature on the Promissory Note gave me the permission and there was no stipulation as to what parts - could have been one part in the value of $10,000 or 10,000 parts in the value of $1 each - anything beyond that would have required an amendment in writing and signed by both parties -- but -- here is the point - it is all about control - George likes control -- he signed that document because he never intended to honor it anyway - he never does -- as for that being his signature, it most certainly is and I have enough copies of documents to prove that as well.

Let this one go and see it for what it is - I left Fiero Shop and now George has no one to blame his failures on. He can't control me and that makes him mad - and now he is distorting the truth as part of his fantasy and calling out to anyone who will listen and buy into his story...........

I am putting this behind me and moving on -- it would be a good idea to let me go my way and George go his - I'll guarantee that our paths will never converge again!

Yes, there is more to the story but I am not telling it because I have something to hide but simply because it ventures into territory that would better be stated in a court of law. While this is a public forum and I respect it as such, it is not judge and jury. If there are those of you who want to feel that I am guilty of something illegal and underhanded just because George says so, then you are entitled to that opinion -- but, if that is the case then you are missing the whole point of this thread.

As for the Promissory Note itself - not one item on there was completely satisfied by George Miller - not one! While I did get the car I still had to pay for the title and registration. I did not get $800 in cash nor did I get (or take) $10,000 in parts - I got far less than that amount! As for the missing item #4, that was a typo, #5 should have been #4 - there was no #5.

A friend of mine put it very well.........."Should you find yourself the victim of other people's bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities; Remember, things could be worse. You could be one of them!" (in this case, I was the victim!)

They went on to say, "Remember: You can not steal property which you own. Mr. Miller wrote in the thread that he signed a contract to compensate you with automotive parts in lieu of money. Mr. Miller did just that. He began his unique financial odyssey by compensating you with the toolbox instead of hard cash, but only after he first bought himself a brand new toolbox. Ok. He did not object to his own arrangement back then and neither did you. Mr. Miller got behind in paying wages and when both of you discussed the situation, you took him at his word that he would make good on the back wages and agreed to continue to help him through the tough time. When it became apparent to all employees that the words were only as good as the air it was spoken on, Mr. Miller yet added a new wrinkle to his business practice by paying people with parts. What else could he do? He refused to pay them money. It is illegal, immoral, unethical and sick to refuse to pay employees. Now when all is said and done Mr. Miller contends his employees did not work so he owes them nothing.

Does he honestly expect people to believe he is paying employees for hours worked with parts because he does not believe they should be compensated with money? I guess so. Now Mr. Miller cries foul when the employees accept the parts and decide to terminate their "employment."

Since Mr. Miller is retiring, as he publicly posted in December 2001, I would suggest he apply for work with Arthur Andersen accounting as this man could teach these people how to really "cook the books."

My 2 cents worth."

Let this one go folks -- eventually you will see the results and you will understand what has transpired. I will not get into all of the details of my leaving Fiero Shop at this time due to the legality of certain issues and issues which, in fact, are not pertinent to anyone other than George Miller and myself.

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 02-28-2002).]

quote Originally posted by DRH: Archie, I don't see your point. I've never seen tgowens represent himself as an impartial customer. What difference does it make if he was an employee, working with George or just using the shop? It seems any of these would cause a similar lack of objectivity that should have been taken into account by anyone else.

I agree with Archie on this one. It's a simple fact that when anyone dances around details like that, the truth is usually not forthcoming. The details themselves are unimportant - it's the shuffling around and half-answers that cast doubt.

Unfortunately, the details seem to be exclusive to the parties involved. So unless a story comes out that makes sense and addresses all the details posted to date, nobody has enough information to clear the doubt of either party. Edit: or place any blame for that matter. Not enough facts and too many assumptions.

Pass the cheeeeese dip pleeeeeze

[This message has been edited by thomas_l (edited 02-28-2002).]

I think it is a good thing for Terry not to say much in this forum... at least until any legal actions are complete. This is a public forum, and stuff that he says here could be used or misconstrued against him later.

quote Originally posted by Archie: That's why you should provide PFF with an idea of WHY you made endorsements flat out trying to mis-represent you actual relationship to those products.

Judge Archie at the podium? Why would he have to answer to us? Isn't this an issue between him and George? In my opinion, this was aired out of frustration. Either put up or shut up. There's a bunch of accusations and interrogations from everyone BUT the other party involved. All I see is accusations and people passing judgment without having ALL the facts here. By people that WERE'NT EVEN INVOLVED! So, lets lay off and let them hash this out. If they feel inclined to do so, they can let us know what happened. In the mean time lets quit wasting bandwidth on this and get back to Fiero's.

Rob D.

------------------

Modified 2.8
2.5" Drop
11" Brakes
17" Revolutions
RCC Coilover Suspension

Charles Cake from the California Department of Industrial Relations, Division of Labor Standards Enforcement will be visiting George early next week to see if all of this is true.

The plot thickens

quote Originally posted by chester: Judge Archie at the podium? Rob D.

Sorry you feel that way Chester.

Looking at the multitude of posts in the other 2 threads a lot of people were asking the same Questions I'm asking, I'm sure that there is a desire to know just what was going on with Terry's "I do", "I don't" work there messages.

However, even though Terry doesn't say it, some of the other resent posts by people who are close to Terry give the impression that there is a pending lawsuit. Maybe Terry doesn't want to address that issue at this time because of a lawsuit. The one thing that I'd like to see even more than a response from Terry is for him to lay the biggest lawsuit on George that you can imagine.

Otherwise, these guys opened up this can of beans, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see the last bean scraped out of the can.

So, it appears that we will need to wait a while if we "want to know the other side of the story".

Nail him to the cross, Terry.

Archie

quote Originally posted by tgowens: George's own quote on another list should tell you what this is all about - he said "he has posted a contract that would be good had I given and signed off on the parts. Instead he has taken them without permission" - his signature on the Promissory Note gave me the permission and there was no stipulation as to what parts - could have been one part in the value of $10,000 or 10,000 parts in the value of $1 each - anything beyond that would have required an amendment in writing and signed by both parties [This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 02-28-2002).]

I'm afraid that when you go to court you will find that this is incorrect. You cannot take the law into your own hands by going into someones shop and taking parts without his knowledge to pay bay what he owes you!!
That is still stealing no matter how much he owes you. Since he did not list the parts then he has to okay the parts that you take.
If he refuses to give you anything then you take him to court just like with the wages he owes you. For example: just because he owes you money doesn't meant that you can walk in there and take it out of the register. He would have to give his permission for you to do that. You have to go through the same red tape everyone does and go to court! If you took parts from him to compensate yourself for the money he owes you but he did not okay it that's illegal.
On the other hand, George is not in the legal area himself so i would doubt that he is going to take you to court over this. The two of you would be far better off trying to settle this out of court because you're both going to end up in jail over this because you BOTH did something illegal. Problem is you both can't seem to see what you did was wrong for some reason.

------------------
Dave Gunsul
Activities Director
Northern IL. Fiero Enthusiasts
86 GT modified
85 SE daily driver

take this to peoples court or judge judy, or joe brown, that way we can watch on tv, (if it comes down to court) just something that would be interesting

FYI - as of 1:12 PM (PST), Thursday, February 28, 2002, there have been no warrants or complaints filed against me with the Richmond, CA Police Department. (Although George Miller has alleged several times that there were) - what does this tell you?

That's enough about this subject.........

Now, I am going back to the pleasure of enjoying my own Fieros.......

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 02-28-2002).]

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: going to take you to court over this. The two of you would be far better off trying to settle this out of court because you're both going to end up in jail over this because you BOTH did something illegal. Problem is you both can't seem to see what you did was wrong for some reason.

Just out of curiosity, what did George do in this situation that would land him in jail?

I say we leave well enough alone, as tgowens stated this is a PUBLIC FORUM not a jury. In my PERSONAL opinion and only my opinion i think hes innocent, i think George is pulling this stuff out of his @$$ as it goes.

Randy

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Just out of curiosity, what did George do in this situation that would land him in jail?

Slander.