After reading the "Wild Adventures" thread, I was struck by how many of the adventures involved spinning.
We all know our little cars can have a predisposition toward lateral rotation, but how many of us REALLY know how to handle it?
While I have only scratched the surface of what's available in terms of professional driving instruction, my accident avoidance course at Summit Point helped immensely.
I'm sure most of use know that to correct a slide, turn into the slide. I.e. when sliding left, turn the wheel left until the car straightens out, but not so far that the rear end whips around and slides the other way. Correcting for a slide is a compromise between getting out of the slide quickly and avoiding snap oversteer (fishtailing)

The first instinct of a driver who knows this procedure is to try to recover at all costs until an impact happens. This is fequently not the best course of action. Several times for me it has been safer to induce a spin, come to a stop and try again than to keep fighting a fishtailing Fiero.
When a car is fishtailing, it is pivoting around whatever wheel has the most traction at the moment. This makes the car a very unpredictable missile careening across the highway.
By stomping the brakes and locking up all four wheels, the driver removes this traction bias. The car will spin, but it will spin in STRAIGHT LINE, making it much easier for other drivers to avoid the car as it spins across the highway. Also, by inducing a spin at the right moment, the driver can control the direction in which the car will slide as it spins. I have used this technique to stay on the road when going off would be disastrous, and, on another occasion, to go off the road to avoid fishtailing across four lanes of traffic.
I'm still trying to achieve the Zen of Spinning, however: the presence of mind to hit the clutch and brake at the SAME time so that I don't kill the engine when I spin.

Please, for the sake of other drivers, do not forget this advice. If you have the necessary yardage of pavement and the road is empty, by all means try to recover. If, however, there is other traffic, or you don't have much pavement to play with, you may be better off giving up, spinning, and driving another day.

Comments welcome

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-19-2000).]

"Turn into the spin..." Sounds like a recipe for making donuts in the snow to me. I've always practiced turning outside of the spin, and have always regained. Maybe I'm reading this wrong...

"Spin Zen". Got a ring to it.
In my spin, I had enough consciousness to get it out of gear so as to avoid destroying the tranny & engine, but I had absolutely NO control of the car whatsoever. I was just along for the ride. I did not brake. You confused me a little... are you saying DO lock up the brakes so that your spin is at least in a predictable direction, or DON'T lock up your brakes? My understanding is like what airplane pilots say: that if you just let go, it will correct itself, given enough distance.

I'll tell you what I did in my instance: I went through some snow and water with my left front tire, hit a dry spot on the driveway, and the back slid to the right. I turned the wheel right to try to countersteer. The back shifted to the left quicker than I thought it would, so I was now sliding to the left. The rear tires were sliding in the snowy grass, and I was going to hit some trees, so I cranked the wheel to the left and punched it. It helped the sliding a little, but I still didn't completely regain control. The Fiero is a little squirrley in the snow, mine anyway. It doesn't have good tires, but I couldn't get going on the packed snow and ice at all. It's a little weird. Oh yeah, yo do NOT want the brakes to lock up. The ones on my Cutlass lock up no matter what. Not a good thing. I almost ran into the garage yesterday; also went off the DRIVEWAY in that too. I need to get some snow tires, sand bags, and maybe learn how to drive.

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Fuzz busters are for those who are worried about being caught.

quote Originally posted by fiero56: [b]"Turn into the spin..." Sounds like a recipe for making donuts in the snow to me. I've always practiced turning outside of the spin, and have always regained. Maybe I'm reading this wrong...[/B]

Yes, you're reading it wrong. Turning into the "slide" is different than turning into the "spin".
If the car's back end is stepping left, then you want to turn the front wheels left to correct. If the car's back end is stepping left, then the car is spinning to the right (clockwise). The correcting action is to turn out of the spin.

Yep, it's that time of year again.

Best practice I've found, other than working out on my Sit-N-Spin j/k, is in an empty parking lot and away from any light poles.

I'm not sure if I'd go with the aim, slam the brakes, let'er spin, and hold on idea, but I can see how it could work.

Yes, you want to turn into the spin like a sprint car on dirt, just don't overcorrect or you'll fishtail back when it hooks up. Whoa!

Main thing is to try to stay calm at all times, uh huh, that's easy to say.

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T-T-F-N, Tah Tah For Now!

That makes sense. I was reading it wrong. Didn't think turning into the spin was a good idea.

quote ...I had absolutely NO control of the car whatsoever. I was just along for the ride. I did not brake. You confused me a little... are you saying DO lock up the brakes so that your spin is at least in a predictable direction, or DON'T lock up your brakes? My understanding is like what airplane pilots say: that if you just let go, it will correct itself, given enough distance. [/B]

There are very few instances in which you have absolutely no control over the car. There are less obvious examples, but two good ones include: when the car is airborne, and when all four wheels have been torn off (e.g. F1 crash)
What I am saying is that in some instances it is the best course of action to lock up the wheels and slide. You have control of the car in that you can chose when to lock the wheels up. The direction the car is going when you lock up the wheels is the direction it will continue to go as is spins. Once on a mountain road I fishtailed. To one side was a bank, the other a 100 ft dropoff. Through good timing (blind luck?) I locked the wheels up when the car was going aproximately down the center of the road. I spun once down the middle of the road and never left the pavement, even though the fishtailing was beyond recovery.
With every inch a tires slides, the car's energy is being disipated. A car, like a plane, will also straighten itself out in enough distance, but that caveat is the killer. There is almost never enough distance, except on the Bonneville salt flats.

1. - "with every inch a tire slides, the car's energy is being disipated" - yeah, so does a hockey puck, but it's still gonna hurt when it hits. j/k

2. - Tigger wrote "stay calm" - oh, I stayed calm. I knew for sure I was going to die, but I was calm about it.

I don't know what my point was. Like my7fieros said, been one of those days. Sometimes you take it out on the keyboard.

I don't care what the government requires/mandates. I will never own a vehicle with any of the folloing in operating condition: ABS, airbags, trac control, DRLs, etc.

The idea is to spin in a direction such that you don't hit anything, or hit the thing that will hurt the least. A tire sliding dissipates enegry through friction a lot faster than a hockey puck. Consider fropuff's situation and my response thereto.

I think I'm getting your point now. Makes sense to me.

quote Originally posted by fiero56: I don't care what the government requires/mandates. I will never own a vehicle with any of the folloing in operating condition: ABS, airbags, trac control, DRLs, etc.

I agree with you on airbags, and traction control.
When properly executed, as on new Corvettes, DRLs do what they are supposed to: they make a black car in a shadow easieer to see.
On most cars, however, they alert you to the car's presence because they are so damned OBNOXIOUS that you want to SHOOT them out.
I do disagree with you about ABS. I think that the good it does in allowing a driver to better integrate braking and turning and allowing the driver to take full advantage of traction for braking while freeing up the driver's attention so that he can use his still turning front wheels to avoid an obstacle outweighs the dangers it presents in a spin situation.
However, if I ever have a car with ABS, I will hook it up to a receiver that senses when I want the wheels to lock up, or an accelerometer that shuts off ABS when the car spins, or something so that I can make the car spin when I have to.
There is a very subtle boundary betwen recoverable and unrecoverable fishtails. The location of that boundary is very dependent on the width of the road, other traffic, off-road obstacles, etc. The threshold at which an accelerometer disengages ABS could never be ideal for all cases. There needs to be some other way of doing it. I could put an ABS kill swith in the cockpit, but then the ZEN of Spin comes into play, and I have to have the presence of mind to kill the ABS as I induce the spin.
I need more practice

Does this make you the Spin Doctor?
Oh, I see by your profile that you already have an occupation... er, uh, MISTER Will... sir... ol' buddy ol' pal.

I have heard (if you trust hearsay) that SCCA driver school teaches the same tactic: if you have truly lost it, lock the brakes to stabliize the direction of spin. Good advice, if you remember it. That's like remembering to hold on to the up-side handlebar when you and your bike are sliding across the pavement. Unless you practice, you remember too late.

Hears a question I think I know the answer to, but am still wondering about it. On snow and ice, do you want more rear wheel braking then normal? Like, what you could do with a proportioning (sp?) valve? I would think in dry conditions you obviously want a little more front end braking. But, the problems I have is on ice, when I hit the brakes in a turn, the wheels dont agree and go straight. When I let off the brakes the car corrects its self and turns. I would think more rear end braking would correct this problem, am I right?

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Sean's Fiero Page
Sean Heberly
Silver 86 GT 2.8 Auto
Going on to 3.4 in Jan.
"If you smoke after sex, you're doing it way to fast".

Kinda confused on this one. First off, what are you guys talking about inducing a spin? Are you talking about in practice in the large parking lot, or when you're on the freeway and you think that for some reason that spinning will help your situation?

I've never heard about the lock up the brakes technique either, but it's a Sunday and hopefully the campus police (read: pricks) won't decide that i am wrecklessly driving, so i'll try it out.

I'm also going to agree with the factor of staying calm, i've had a lot of close calls, and if i just gave up and screamed hanging on for dear life, i don't think i would have made it.

Anyway, that's my story and i'm sticking to it. hope i didn't flame anyone.

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pHoOL, They are saying that spinning a car in a straight line is better than fishtailing across four lanes of traffic into a highway divider.

I thought I knew how to control a spin...

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Mike -
Black 86.5 GT 5 Spd, 153,000 miles and some busted up ground f/x
Red 84 Sport Coupe - winter donut maker

I see, i guess i just figured that recovering is better than spinning out of control. I think that i was imagining that you were on a curved portion of road when it happened such that if you spun in a straight line you'd go into the highway divider.

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pHoOl:

I was on a curve in the road.
If you think about it, when fishtailing, a car is going alternately left then right, with somewhat unpredictable final trajectory.
If you cause a spin when the car is in a right fishtail, then you can deflect the car's course significantly to the right of where it would probably have gone if you had tried to correct for it.
I came around a right hander too fast and a little bit light from the previous rise. The back end came loose and I corrected two or three times before I realized that I was going off the left side of the road (dropoff). I mashed the brakes when the car was in a right skid; the back end came around and I spun counterclockwise, but my course was deflected enough to the right that I stayed on the pavement. I was very close to the left shoudler (just barely dropped one back wheel off), but I was on the pavement nonetheless.

This was on an almost two lane country road, BTW. Not much margin for error.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-19-2000).]

But let's not forget our best friend for preventing spins in the first place: Throttle.

Throttle?

...maybe in a FWD car.

Best slide control is not to get yourself into one! (when trying to remain safe) but obvously, going out and launching some circles is always fun. I have yet to have the rear end come too far arround, usually, I can get the rear end to fish tail once, and then pin it to one side so I dog track along for a bit till I'm threw the intersection and then try to get it back to straight, the hard part is doing so w/o getting that 'snap back' effect when the rear wheels catch and the fronts are still turned because you're just as liable to get into a new fish tail. As far as trying to correct a slide/spin, well the wheels with the most drag are going try to settle in back. Old wisconsin trick was to throw the car (auto) into 2nd gear (or 1st if you're going slow) which will slow down tire speed but still let them roll and you'll still be able to hit the gas, either that or lift just a bit on the e-brake, do not lock up those rear tires tho. expecially in a curve.

as for locking up all 4 and riding it out, well, I've never gotten into a slide I had to give up on controling it, but it makes scense, just make sure you're feeling the momentum correctly, and hope there aren't patches of traction on the road.

but anyways, keep the front wheels rolling (steering) and use the rears to slow. even if the rears lock/slide you should still be able to keep the fronts rolling and just dog track threw the situation... unless your back end is in oncoming traffic's lane.

Sorry, I should have said throttle CONTROL. Hopping in a Fiero, coming into a turn too hot, panicing and lifting the throttle will put you into a nice little spin.

hmm .. i used to play around in the church parking lot after it rained .. *nice slick blacktop* its a really big lot so i dont have much of a chance of hitting anything ..
its just big anough to hit about 40mph and slam on the breaks and slide safely to a stop .. its alot of fun but its hell on the tires but the experience can save you in the long run if you ever do get into a mess