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L67 Bottom End Opinion Poll by WickedFieroGTP
Started on: 06-23-2013 11:55 PM
Replies: 11
Last post by: 1fast2m4 on 06-25-2013 10:23 PM
WickedFieroGTP
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Report this Post06-23-2013 11:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WickedFieroGTPSend a Private Message to WickedFieroGTPDirect Link to This Post
I have been reading a lot of mixed opinions about rebuilding the L67 bottom ends. Some say go for it, while others say they are strong and don't require it (not to mention a high fail rate after rebuilding). Here is my scenario. I just purchased a 160,000 mi engine. I tore it down to the short block to do a visual inspection. Pistons have no visible signs of damage and very little carbon build up, the bore is smooth with zero lips at the top. There is a slight side to side wiggle in all the rods ends but no up and down. My conscience tells me to finish tearing it down and send it of to the machine shop but my wallet is telling me not to. My plans are not to heavily mod it. Just looking to go as far as a 3.4 pulley with supporting mods to eliminate KR. So the question is should I tear it completely down and rebuild or not? Constructive opinions and experiences would be greatly appreciated.
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jb1
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Report this Post06-24-2013 01:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jb1Send a Private Message to jb1Direct Link to This Post
personally would leave it alone..

------------------


87 GT
series 1 3800sc (7.597 @88.53 1.579 60ft)
(series II swap in progress)
85GT Northstar
86GT 3800 n/a

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phonedawgz
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Report this Post06-24-2013 02:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for phonedawgzClick Here to visit phonedawgz's HomePageSend a Private Message to phonedawgzDirect Link to This Post
+1
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1fast2m4
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Report this Post06-24-2013 08:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fast2m4Send a Private Message to 1fast2m4Direct Link to This Post
I've never had the heads off mine, I just clicked 2000 miles off on my swap, I saw my doner car but the mileage was unknown, I would leave it alone, even if you get it running and it knocks I wouldn't rebuild it. I'd source a replacement stock long block.
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henryssc
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Report this Post06-25-2013 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for henrysscSend a Private Message to henrysscDirect Link to This Post
They come built from the factory to handle 600 hp. Ive seen these engines with 450000 miles on them with only normal maintenance performed on them.
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Lou6t4gto
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Report this Post06-25-2013 07:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Lou6t4gtoSend a Private Message to Lou6t4gtoDirect Link to This Post
I tore mine down,(just to KNOW for sure) you MUST replace rod bolts, head bolts main bolts,"just to take a look", even if you don't change anything ($$$) chances are, it won't need anything, (I found a broken keyway in the crankshaft !), If you are going to send it off to the machine shop, I hope you have "Deep pockets".
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cmechmann
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Report this Post06-25-2013 08:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cmechmannSend a Private Message to cmechmannDirect Link to This Post
Unless you are planning to replace all main and rod bolts, don't pull it apart. And if you plan on plastiguaging you would need to replace bolts twice.
They are all TTY. If you replace with reusable bolts, the mains and rods will need to be machined for fitting. Earlier,These were the areas that rebuilders had problems. After, rebuild prices went up to deal with the added work and parts.
You won't be able to look at the bearings but there are a few things you can do.
Look at the cam lobes to see if worn from oil starvation.
Oil pan off, look at the cylinder wall from underneath, look for a varnished look to the walls. This can determine if rings have been allowing burnt gases to pass by. You can check thrust bearing end play to give a general idea of wear. Look at the rod caps for any discoloring. That won't tell bearing wear but will tell if the bearing dried out. Look for fine grains between the rod caps. Take a white cloth on something thin and wipe where 2 of the caps meet at the crank. Silver/aluminum color(small amounts)OK, but if there is black(gunpowder looking) or copper grains you can count on bearing damage. I would at least do that before putting in a car.
Take the timing cover off and replace the chain and tensioner. While there replace the cam sensor magnet holder. Find a metal upper intake.
That and replacing the gaskets, you would have covered a great deal of the problems that come up.

3.8-3800 can be a long service life engine. They have been in Jeeps, GMC buses(yep seen them in 60s buses) and Bonneboats. They have had a very wide usage. Like any good engine, it depends on how it was treated.
Most of these spend there life in the family boat. So there should be a good history of what it had been through. We should be seeing a slew of these soon. Moderate mileage cars that have rusted their brake, fuel and evap lines out. 96-01 or 02 C and H and some W bodies. It gets expensive unless the owner DIYs. See failures or bad oxidation on 25% of those I see. Most of these are the second car that most don't want to invest in. Don't take this the wrong way, these would have been the 14 year old dependable, got me anywhere car. That as big as it was, got me 27 on the highway.
Series 11 and 3 are very rebuildable if they didn't have a catastrophic failure. Powdered rods can get pricey.
Series 1 and earlier are more machinable. Earlier models with older style timing covers did not tolerate free revs. Melting down ice with your tires. Spinning down to the asphalt in snow. You could bet on seeing one the next day with a spun bearing.
Series engines were built with tighter tolerences. In one hand good, longer lasting. On the other hand small oil starvation mishaps(forgotten oil changes, 30 degree incline tree stump pulling, low oil, etc.) that would do small damage to less tighter engines, do a greater amount of damage to these.
Why Gm just didn't advance the 3800(OHC, aluminum block),fix their(GMs) faults and continue it's existance is beyond me.

[This message has been edited by cmechmann (edited 06-25-2013).]

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1fast2m4
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Report this Post06-25-2013 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fast2m4Send a Private Message to 1fast2m4Direct Link to This Post
If you you or anyone does fully tear down any 3800/ L67 intended for a fiero swap the car owners personal goals had better be to have the fastest most reliable Fiero in history, otherwise I feel like it's a waste. It's more cost effective to source another L67 for the car if if happens to knock.

------------------
1986 SE 3800SC/4t65eHD (12.871@104.96) I'll Sell it if you like
1985 GT 3800SC (swap in progress)

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WickedFieroGTP
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Report this Post06-25-2013 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WickedFieroGTPSend a Private Message to WickedFieroGTPDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Lou6t4gto:

I tore mine down,(just to KNOW for sure) you MUST replace rod bolts, head bolts main bolts,"just to take a look", even if you don't change anything ($$$) chances are, it won't need anything, (I found a broken keyway in the crankshaft !), If you are going to send it off to the machine shop, I hope you have "Deep pockets".


This what I am finding out. I took the heads off to get a look at the pistons but have not removed the pistons. They pistons look good as do the bores. This is where I am stopping because as you said it gets expensive. I have been corresponding with the guys from ZZP and they said if the visual inspection looks good to leave well enough alone. I'll take everyone's word for it and start buttoning things back up. For now I am going to replace the timing chain , water pump, T stat along with associated gaskets and bolts required to put this back together. On the recommendations from ZZP I think I am going to replace the crank and springs while I have it apart and drop down to a 3.4 pulley. They also recommended the power log as well but I think I am going to try and piece together a set of headers. I need to get a decent scan gauge as well. Any recommendations?

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WickedFieroGTP
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Report this Post06-25-2013 09:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WickedFieroGTPSend a Private Message to WickedFieroGTPDirect Link to This Post

WickedFieroGTP

522 posts
Member since Jun 2013
 
quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:

Unless you are planning to replace all main and rod bolts, don't pull it apart. And if you plan on plastiguaging you would need to replace bolts twice.
They are all TTY. If you replace with reusable bolts, the mains and rods will need to be machined for fitting. Earlier,These were the areas that rebuilders had problems. After, rebuild prices went up to deal with the added work and parts.
You won't be able to look at the bearings but there are a few things you can do.
Look at the cam lobes to see if worn from oil starvation.
Oil pan off, look at the cylinder wall from underneath, look for a varnished look to the walls. This can determine if rings have been allowing burnt gases to pass by. You can check thrust bearing end play to give a general idea of wear. Look at the rod caps for any discoloring. That won't tell bearing wear but will tell if the bearing dried out. Look for fine grains between the rod caps. Take a white cloth on something thin and wipe where 2 of the caps meet at the crank. Silver/aluminum color(small amounts)OK, but if there is black(gunpowder looking) or copper grains you can count on bearing damage. I would at least do that before putting in a car.
Take the timing cover off and replace the chain and tensioner. While there replace the cam sensor magnet holder. Find a metal upper intake.
That and replacing the gaskets, you would have covered a great deal of the problems that come up.

3.8-3800 can be a long service life engine. They have been in Jeeps, GMC buses(yep seen them in 60s buses) and Bonneboats. They have had a very wide usage. Like any good engine, it depends on how it was treated.
Most of these spend there life in the family boat. So there should be a good history of what it had been through. We should be seeing a slew of these soon. Moderate mileage cars that have rusted their brake, fuel and evap lines out. 96-01 or 02 C and H and some W bodies. It gets expensive unless the owner DIYs. See failures or bad oxidation on 25% of those I see. Most of these are the second car that most don't want to invest in. Don't take this the wrong way, these would have been the 14 year old dependable, got me anywhere car. That as big as it was, got me 27 on the highway.
Series 11 and 3 are very rebuildable if they didn't have a catastrophic failure. Powdered rods can get pricey.
Series 1 and earlier are more machinable. Earlier models with older style timing covers did not tolerate free revs. Melting down ice with your tires. Spinning down to the asphalt in snow. You could bet on seeing one the next day with a spun bearing.
Series engines were built with tighter tolerences. In one hand good, longer lasting. On the other hand small oil starvation mishaps(forgotten oil changes, 30 degree incline tree stump pulling, low oil, etc.) that would do small damage to less tighter engines, do a greater amount of damage to these.
Why Gm just didn't advance the 3800(OHC, aluminum block[where it's cast came from]),fix their(GMs) faults and continue it's existance is beyond me.



+1 Great info and some more things for me to look at. Thanks for the reply.
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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-25-2013 10:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 1fast2m4:

If you you or anyone does fully tear down any 3800/ L67 intended for a fiero swap the car owners personal goals had better be to have the fastest most reliable Fiero in history, otherwise I feel like it's a waste. It's more cost effective to source another L67 for the car if if happens to knock.



+1
It is certainly more cost effective to source another 3800SC rather than rebuilding. The last engine that I rebuilt cost over $2000 and 40 hours of work and that was 10 years ago!

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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1fast2m4
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Report this Post06-25-2013 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1fast2m4Send a Private Message to 1fast2m4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cmechmann:


Why Gm just didn't advance the 3800(OHC, aluminum block),fix their(GMs) faults and continue it's existance is beyond me.



oh that's easy, GM acquired Sabb, raped them for all the engineering know how, picked Lotus's brains and developed a twin cam 24 valve direct injected v6 that could easily be recreated and mass produced then sold off Sabb to the least threatening bidder, B!tC# slapped Lotus and moved on, and what they came up with was a V6 that makes the same HP & TQ as the old LT1 and gets and average 10MPG better.

The 2015 Z06 should be interesting

------------------
1986 SE 3800SC/4t65eHD (12.871@104.96) I'll Sell it if you like
1985 GT 3800SC (swap in progress)

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