Update: I only tightened them to 3/4, but I haven't gotten to drive it yet.
I had a Trans issue (TV Cable was off..) so I hooked it up.
Now I have a high idle issue (2500rpm, Glowing manifolds, Rich condition.

I put an 88 Formula intake plenum and middle plenum on today, and deleted my CSI (plugged hole on fuel rail, left tube on the injector for now.

Tried to put my hand over the TB to check for leaks, nothing. Used wd40, nothing
---------------


So I replaced the head and exhaust
Manifold on my DD (rear manifold and head)

At first, I just tightened them down 3/4 turn without setting the cylinders (it ran like crap, ticking and no power)
Then I rotated to cyl 1, did the valves on that one, then cyl 2,
3, ect (didn't turn over at all).

Last night I followed my Chilton manual
(Rotate cyl 1, do the exhaust/intake on certain cyls. Then rotate to cyl 4 and did those, then rotates back to cyl 1, TDC.

So my question is, do you think it will start today if I followed it right? She's my DD so getting around has been hard.

[This message has been edited by 87FieroSport (edited 04-20-2013).]

If you did it right, yes. If you didn't, no,.

There is a specific sequence for the adjustment. If you don't follow it, anything can happen.

And the correct adjustment is 1.5 turns after zero lash. I have measured the position of the plunger and it's centered in the lifter at 1.5T after zero lash (the push rod won't spin or click in the lifter.)

there is a cheater's way of doing this, every rocker nut sits about the same amount of threads down from the top of the stud.
(so you can pre-adjust everything to about where you will want to be)
if you can crank the engine over with a compression gauge in a cylinder then you can adjust the rocker nuts, if you get compression then everything is sealing right.
(it shouldnt be anymore than a turn in either way, probably less. I was perfect on all cylinders exept for the #6 intake valve when I did mine.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 04-17-2013).]

BTW, do you have a service manual with the correct torque pattern and numbers for the head and intake manifold bolts?

I did 3/4 turns, these are the old lifters and all.
I'd rather not collapse one. Or all.

quote Originally posted by TK: If you did it right, yes. If you didn't, no,. There is a specific sequence for the adjustment. If you don't follow it, anything can happen. And the correct adjustment is 1.5 turns after zero lash. I have measured the position of the plunger and it's centered in the lifter at 1.5T after zero lash (the push rod won't spin or click in the lifter.)

This is the correct answer. The thing most people get wrong is determining the true zero-lash point. The "spin the pushrod" technique works, but it requires a fine touch and most people get the lash way too tight this way. Jazzman's "wiggle the pushrod" technique is slightly less precise, but it is probably the easiest for most people to do correctly.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-17-2013).]

Well the good:
I only did 3/4 turns so if I hear ticking, I can adjust.

The other good:
I was able to set 90% of them to ALMOST 0 lash easily.

Update!
She started first turn, but for you Valve lash gurus,

My car doesn't have any UMPH to it, I hit the gas and it just revs sometimes.
Are my valves too loose or tight?

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: Update! She started first turn, but for you Valve lash gurus, My car doesn't have any UMPH to it, I hit the gas and it just revs sometimes. Are my valves too loose or tight?

*compression test*

do it on each cylinder.

Also check timing (base timing terminal jump on the aldl, blah blah blah)

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 04-18-2013).]

My timing is near perfect, maybe 1-2* off.
If my compression is low (which I think is what would it would be for m car to lose power)
Does that mean I have to back off my nuts by 1/4 turn?

I did 3/4 turns on my rockers. I feel that 1.5 would be too much for stock

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: I did 3/4 turns on my rockers. I feel that 1.5 would be too much for stock

Why, exactly? GM designed and manufactured the engine, GM specifies 1 1/2 turns past zero lash, and 1 1/2 turns has been independently verified to be correct both analytically and by careful measurement.

What method did you use to determine the zero-lash point?

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-18-2013).]

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: I did 3/4 turns on my rockers. I feel that 1.5 would be too much for stock

I was told in my high school auto shop class way back when that only putting 3/4 turn on hydraulic lifters was an old racers trick to get more top end from an engine. I can't remember the reason behind this though. But I've always adjusted the hydraulic lifters in all my GM motors this way and they've always run great for thousands and thousands of miles.

quote Originally posted by FieroDan86: I was told in my high school auto shop class way back when that only putting 3/4 turn on hydraulic lifters was an old racers trick to get more top end from an engine. I can't remember the reason behind this though. But I've always adjusted the hydraulic lifters in all my GM motors this way and they've always run great for thousands and thousands of miles.

Racers use a range of lifter preloads from 1/4 turn to all but 1/2 turn from bottoming out the lifter plunger. For a DD I would stay between 1 and 1.5 turns based on a 24 thread per inch rocker stud and stock GM lifters.

[This message has been edited by DimeMachine (edited 04-18-2013).]

quote Originally posted by FieroDan86: I was told in my high school auto shop class way back when that only putting 3/4 turn on hydraulic lifters was an old racers trick to get more top end from an engine.

That's an old myth. The symptom it's supposed to mitigate is the lifters "pumping up" at high rpm due to the onset of valve float. The actual problem is valve float at too-high engine rpm due to incorrect or weak valve springs and/or high valvetrain mass; the lifter "pumping" is only a symptom. The proper cure is some combination of stronger valve springs, lighter pushrods, rockers with a lower moment of inertia, and/or lighter valves, retainers, keepers, etc. ... or more respect for an engine's redline.

The whole purpose of hydraulic lifters is to allow the valvetrain to work at zero clearance throughout the engine's full operating range, automatically adjusting to compensate for temperature changes and/or valvetrain wear. The engine manufacturer has determined the optimum preload for the lifters used (1 1/2 turns in the case of the Fiero V6), and any deviation from that will reduce the automatic adjustment range available during engine operation. Exceed the manufacturer's design limits (e.g. redline rpm) for any engine and you are a test pilot.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-18-2013).]

Seems like you have been doing a lot of (taking apart and doing again) for nothing. yes you still don't have it correct. Open the book, do EXACTLY what it says. get EVERY valve to 0 lash before setting. you can do certain valves at TDC #1, then you spin the engine 180 degrees and do the others. the engine should run fine whether you set them at 1 turn or 1 1/2 turns. yes they are old lifters, therefore they are "Best Set" where they were to begin with. but now you have no way of knowing if they were 1/2, 3/4, 1, 1/12. Just do it Exactly like the book says, you only need to turn the engine over 1 time to set the valves. (so much easier to set valves when you can actually Look at the Lifters as you're doing it)

For reference, here is the JazzMan technique, in his own words. I highly recommend that you click on the quote and read the entire thread:

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: GM didn't screw up anything, their info is accurate. The problem is that most people can't tell by twisting when they get to zero lash and end up over-tightening the rockers big-time, especially if the lifters are dry or have little oil in them. 1.5 turns after accurate determination of zero lash puts the lifter poppet exactly in the center of it's range of travel. I find that holding the pushrod up against the rocker to remove slack and then clicking the bottom of the pushrod back and forth in the lifter poppet seat works best. You can feel the click distance decrease until suddenly it's gone, without any downforce against the lifter at all. Tighten the rocker 1.5 turns past that and you're done. If you tighten the rocker while twisting until the pushrod gets hard to turn you've either bottomed the lifter, in which case your engine won't run and your cam will be wrecked in the first 30 seconds of trying to start the motor, or if there was oil in the lifter the adjustment will be at some random point which may or may not work and may or may not have enough travel in it to compensate for thermal/wear changes down the road. JazzMan

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-18-2013).]

a compression test would yield a possible lack of compression in a cylinder, it only takes one to be too low on compression to alter performance.

I used a compression tester in #6 (when I had a 0psi compression problem from the intake valve being open the whole time) to adjust the valve lash for the intake and exhaust, adjusting them both just enough to where I was getting compression, this also means the rockers are producing the maximum amount of lift as well, compared to being too loose and not producing the lift as it should.

all my cylinders are running 140psi across the board.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 04-18-2013).]

quote Originally posted by AL87: ... this also means the rockers are producing the maximum amount of lift as well ...

No. When a lifter is working properly, valve lift will be exactly the same from one end of the lifter adjustment range (i.e. plunger travel range) to the other. Think about it.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-18-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: This is the correct answer. The thing most people get wrong is determining the true zero-lash point. The "spin the pushrod" technique works, but it requires a fine touch and most people get the lash way too tight this way. Jazzman's "wiggle the pushrod" technique is slightly less precise, but it is probably the easiest for most people to do correctly.

I tell people to go one turn past zero lash, because people tend to over-tighten the adjuster nuts when finding the zero lash point. And IMO, it would be better to have a little valve clatter than bottom out a lifter (and possibly bend pushrods, wipe out cam lobes, etc).

Yes, 1.5 turns is ideal. And for those of us with a fine touch, that's what you should do. But realistically, anything close to that point will work. So if you're ham-fisted or just don't have much experience setting valve lash, giving yourself a little more cushion may just save your engine.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-19-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: No. When a lifter is working properly, valve lift will be exactly the same from one end of the lifter adjustment range (i.e. plunger travel range) to the other. Think about it.

I was talking about if one were to have a rocker loose as compared to one adjusted from being too tight. I was watching compression drop from 140 to 132 when I loosened the rocker nut even more.

I turned out an intake rocker nut from being too tight to just enough to make compression, it jumped to 140, I tried loosening it a little more, then within 1 turn compression dropped to 132. so I adjusted it back to get 140, and did the same for the exhaust to double check the settings for that cylinder. I tested this on a stand with valve covers off, using a starter to turn the motor over, while making oil pressure.

So...
Loose = loss of power, like what I'm having (no backfires, no missing, just a significant loss of power)

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: So... Loose = loss of power, like what I'm having (no backfires, no missing, just a significant loss of power)

from my thought, the position of the nut controls how close or far away the PIVOT point is for the rocker, if the nut is too loose then the pivot point in my mind would be further away than if it were adjusted closer; (I set mine just a hair back from the valve being constantly open (this is where I've found my engine makes the highest compression) however slight that adjustment might be)
I picture losing a little bit of lift throught the cam lobe rotation

(I preset everything in proper sequence and test by spinning the pushrod and tightening the rocker nut until the pushrod cant be spun at all by my fingers).
And to check if my presets were dead on, I do a compression test.

compression test first to see which cylinder is lower than the baseline set by the other cylinders, if there is a difference*
(I try to get each cylinder to match the highest reading made)

I start to play with the rocker nut adjustment, I make sure the exhaust valve is closing by making the adjustment on its rocker nut slightly loose then I tighten the intake nut to where I dont get any compression. then back it out until I get compression. I keep backing the nut out until compression starts to drop to see how much I have to play with, then I adjust the intake nut back in to the point where I was making the most compression. I then do the same on the exhaust tightening it to where no compression is made, then backing it out to the point where the highest compression is made.

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 04-18-2013).]

How can I do a comp check with my whole top end off?
Also, you go until you can't freely spin your rod, then x amount of turns?

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: How can I do a comp check with my whole top end off? Also, you go until you can't freely spin your rod, then x amount of turns?

you dont need your top end off, for just doing a compression test with engine in car. you will need it off to adjust valves.

the upper and lower plenums come right off, if you want you can remove your fuel rail and disconnect your fuel fump. vac lines come off too, and its a good time to check those as well.
take valve cover off then connect compression gauge and adjust rocker nuts. while someone is cranking to generate compression.

and yes if you were going to preset everything and not test then tighten them X-amount of truns I adjusted my valvetrain to make the most compression having the rocker nuts tightened about as tight as they can get.

(DISCONNECT IGNITION COIL)

I did this on a stand, before install*

Edit to say:
I understand, I'll test compression by turning the crank.

[This message has been edited by 87FieroSport (edited 04-18-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: I tell people to go one turn past zero lash, because people tend to over-tighten the adjuster nuts when finding the zero lash point. ... Yes, 1.5 turns is ideal. And for those of us with a fine touch, that's what you should do. But realistically, anything close to that point will work.

I agree on both points, but I still recommend doing it right the first time. Yes, finding the zero-lash point using the GM "twirl the pushrod" technique takes a fine touch ... but if you and I can do it, anybody can. If in doubt, JazzMan's "wiggle the pushrod" technique is darn near foolproof. (But ... as a valued client of mine once observed ... "You can make something foolproof, but you can't make it damn-fool proof.")

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: ... you go until you can't freely spin your rod, then x amount of turns?

No! If you can't freely spin the pushrod, the lifter is already bottomed out at the extreme end of its adjustment range..

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-19-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: No! If you can't freely spin the pushrod, the lifter is already bottomed out at the extreme end of its adjustment range..

i twirled mine while adjusting the rocker nut to just snug enough where my fingers couldnt turn it, then the 3/4 turn more is recommended, even in basic tech manuals of chiltons and haynes do they say to do this... everyone has thier own way or opinion on the issue, I stated how I did mine, and then I just cleared what I am reading is an error in this. you turn the 3/4 more after you cant twirl the pushrod...

(however the above isnt always the case, which is why I then did it MY way, because the 3/4 turn on the #6 cylinder's intake rocker stud was too much on my engine... it ended up being only 1/4 turn JUST FOR THAT ONE.... so you have to feel it out man... every engine is different...)

and also, by turn the crank, I mean USE the starter to turn it over for you... (disconnect fuel and ignition systems)

[This message has been edited by AL87 (edited 04-19-2013).]

quote Originally posted by AL87: i twirled mine while adjusting the rocker nut to just snug enough where my fingers couldnt turn it, then the 3/4 turn more ...

You were doing it wrong ... just like most people who try the "twirl the pushrod" method. The correct zero-lash point is where you feel just the slightest increase in resistance to twirling the pushrod, not when it gets too snug to twirl easily. It takes a very fine touch to do it properly that way. JazzMan's technique is much easier to do correctly.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 04-19-2013).]

I think twirling the pushrod method is the easiest of all of them. I spin the pushrod at a medium speed back and forth until I feel it just start to slow down. Then I back off until it spins normally, then really slowly tighten it until I just feel the pushrod start to drag. I then shake the pushrod to double check that there is no looseness. Putting some oil on lifter side and rocker side of the pushrod helps with consistency of pushrod feel and makes things easier.

If you are using a socket for this (which I assume you are) Then make sure the socket is not pushing down on the rocker itself because that will mess with your results. I am sure it is a very small difference but a difference nonetheless.

Also I am not sure why the compression would drop with loosening the valve lash too much, I don't know why that would affect compression. It just means that maybe the intake/ exhaust valves are open for less amount of time. At cranking speeds I cant imagine this really affects how much air has gotten into the cylinder or if that would even factor into what the compression would turn out to be.

quote Originally posted by zkhennings: Also I am not sure why the compression would drop with loosening the valve lash too much, I don't know why that would affect compression. It just means that maybe the intake/ exhaust valves are open for less amount of time. At cranking speeds I cant imagine this really affects how much air has gotten into the cylinder or if that would even factor into what the compression would turn out to be.

think of it this way, the valve lash is too loose, so the valve opens a little late, and closes a little early...

quote Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: You were doing it wrong ... just like most people who try the "twirl the pushrod" method. The correct zero-lash point is where you feel just the slightest increase in resistance to twirling the pushrod, not when it gets too snug to twirl easily. It takes a very fine touch to do it properly that way. JazzMan's technique is much easier to do correctly.

I do both the twirl and the click/play. I try to move the pushrod left to right and just when it can't move it I consider that zero lash. The twirling (feeling for any increase in effort trying to spin it) and feeling for when the left to right play just goes away puts you close enough to zero lash you can then crank them down 1.5 turns.

I have measure both the 1.5:1 rockers and the 1.6:1 rockers and:

1.5:1 rockers need 1.5 turns to center them in the lifter
1.6:1 rockers needs 1.3 turns to center them in the lifter

quote Originally posted by TK: I do both the twirl and the click/play. I try to move the pushrod left to right and just when it can't move it I consider that zero lash. The twirling (feeling for any increase in effort trying to spin it) and feeling for when the left to right play just goes away puts you close enough to zero lash you can then crank them down 1.5 turns.

I have used both techniques, and I agree.

quote I have measure both the 1.5:1 rockers and the 1.6:1 rockers and: 1.5:1 rockers need 1.5 turns to center them in the lifter 1.6:1 rockers needs 1.3 turns to center them in the lifter

This and related topics were discussed at length in this thread.

But I used metric math!

Okay. So my compression on Cyl 1, 3, 5 were
146-150.

Cyl, 4 was 150, need to do 2,6 now.

Here is what happens:
When I drive, I hit 3k rpm at 20mph, if I press more it'll high and go to 30mph at 2k rpm.
But if I let off the gas, press back on I won't accelarate until I hit that 3200rpm mark for the Trans to shift.

Are there vacuum lines going to the Trans? Maybe that's an issue.. I do have a high idle at startup, it'll calm down after a bit to 1100.

Check your fluid level in the transmission.

quote Originally posted by 87FieroSport: Okay. So my compression on Cyl 1, 3, 5 were 146-150. Cyl, 4 was 150, need to do 2,6 now. Here is what happens: When I drive, I hit 3k rpm at 20mph, if I press more it'll high and go to 30mph at 2k rpm. But if I let off the gas, press back on I won't accelarate until I hit that 3200rpm mark for the Trans to shift. Are there vacuum lines going to the Trans? Maybe that's an issue.. I do have a high idle at startup, it'll calm down after a bit to 1100.

compression is good so far. maybe adjust your kickdown/detent cable from your throttle body to your transmission. and like he said, check your fluid level, BUT after you drive about 15 miles to warm it up. (with car in gear, parking brake on) also your transmission could be slipping (it could be going, or it could be low on fluid, OR it needs a change)

HIgh idle is normal on startup, sometimes as high as 1500. should get to 1100-900 depending on how everything is set.

Sounds like clutch slip instead of valve adjustment.

Automatic.
It's my kickdown.

I replied to your other thread but after seeing this, make sure the kick down TV cable isn't holding the throttle open.