Does anyone have any experience with using HP tuners on a 3800 SC motor? I've been using Digital HP for some time and I was told HP tuners was way easier to tune with. I have a pretty heavily modified setup and I'm looking for something more user friendly.

Thanks,
Tom

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We have HP Tuners VCM tuning suite and feel that its a very user friendly program to work with but the std license, each PCM you tune will cost $50 each. The program is also a great scanner that charts each cell for LTFT, STFT, Timing,KR, Enrichment, MAF Curve,and just about everthing else in the PCM program. With HP Tuners you can alter just about every parameter. With any change of pulley size, MAF type, TB or even CAI air flow, tuning is required for optimum performance.


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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 02-03-2013).]

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: We have HP Tuners VCM tuning suite and feel that its a very user friendly program to work with but the std license, each PCM you tune will cost $50 each. The program is also a great scanner that charts each cell for LTFT, STFT, Timing,KR, Enrichment, MAF Curve,and just about everthing else in the PCM program. With HP Tuners you can alter just about every parameter. With any change of pulley size, MAF type, TB or even CAI air flow, tuning is required for optimum performance.

You dont have to change anything for 'optimum performance" when throwing stuff around... If you pulley too small for your setup you will need to throw fuel at it for optimum knock quenching, but its hardly performance boosting anything.

HPT offers LESS features and is overall a pain in the ass to setup for actual easy tuning... And the reality of the amount of parameters you can modify with HPT is about 15% of the entire pcm. That being said, unless you are trying to do anything extreme you will be fine with minor pe and or fuel injector constant changes. It also costs $100 per vehicle as most take 2 credits, and 1 credit is $50.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You dont have to change anything for 'optimum performance" when throwing stuff around... If you pulley too small for your setup you will need to throw fuel at it for optimum knock quenching, but its hardly performance boosting anything. HPT offers LESS features and is overall a pain in the ass to setup for actual easy tuning... And the reality of the amount of parameters you can modify with HPT is about 15% of the entire pcm. That being said, unless you are trying to do anything extreme you will be fine with minor pe and or fuel injector constant changes. It also costs $100 per vehicle as most take 2 credits, and 1 credit is $50.

Idk but.I completly disagree with you I've had about 6-7 years of tuning with hpt and I feel its well worth the money. You can virtually change ALL table from fuel/ spark transmission info remove dtcs... I've used iit on a few vehicles where custom maps needed to be.made up after several logs and teat runs.. I feel without it there would have never been a "final" tune or safe driveability... as for a 3800 the parameters are great and there is a TON of tunes in the respository. Anywhere from a basic cai to complete built sky high motors... a lot of guys on the gp forums. I'm a +1 for it best money I've ever spent. Plus I've pretty much made back my initial costs tuning cars locally.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: You dont have to change anything for 'optimum performance" when throwing stuff around... If you pulley too small for your setup you will need to throw fuel at it for optimum knock quenching, but its hardly performance boosting anything. HPT offers LESS features and is overall a pain in the ass to setup for actual easy tuning... And the reality of the amount of parameters you can modify with HPT is about 15% of the entire pcm. That being said, unless you are trying to do anything extreme you will be fine with minor pe and or fuel injector constant changes. It also costs $100 per vehicle as most take 2 credits, and 1 credit is $50.

Are you are saying that the obsolete and unsupported DHP program is better? That company is done and long out of business. I looked at the program once and didn't find any features that HPT didn't include. Like it or not HPT is now the standard. HPT is very easy to work with but as you pointed out it is expensive to tune with. Tuning, even at the dyno shops, is basically alteration of timing and fuel with an occasional transmission tweak. I can't imagine how anything more would be ever needed.
The tuning changes that I was alluding to were ones necessitated by the addition of a new TB and MAF sensor when running/ tuning a series III engine on a series II PCM. In this instance a new MAF table must be imported and many fueling changes will result. The change to a 3.4" pulley on the gen V supercharger now gives 11 psi of boost but that requiredextra fueling changes and an intercooler. I would call that a performance boosting mod but if you are talking about the guys that run a 2.7" pulley on an M90 I would have doubts as to thepositive effect.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: We have HP Tuners VCM tuning suite and feel that its a very user friendly program to work with but the std license, each PCM you tune will cost $50 each. The program is also a great scanner that charts each cell for LTFT, STFT, Timing,KR, Enrichment, MAF Curve,and just about everthing else in the PCM program. With HP Tuners you can alter just about every parameter. With any change of pulley size, MAF type, TB or even CAI air flow, tuning is required for optimum performance.

This is a great topic!
I am considering purchasing HP Tuners or maybe outsourcing it for my Ls4 build. Not sure yet.
So which version do I need?
Is the $699.00 Pro. Version or the $499.00 Standard Version sufficient?
I looked up my credits for the Ls4 and it is 2 at $50.00 each.
Can I now perform multiple tunes on my PCM and not have to buy any more credits?

When you buy a new system, you get 8 credits to get you started. You can tune your vehicle as many times as you want. The standard is what you will need, I think the pro allowes multiple vehicles to be tuned.

10. What can I do with the 8 free credits on initial purchase?
When you first purchase VCM Suite, you receive 8 credits as part of the base package. These credits can be used any combination requiring a total of 8 or less credits, or additional credits can be purchased as well. The system is totally flexible and over time as HP Tuners adds new vehicle support or additional licensed enhancements, credits are used to add that capability to the customer feature set.

Enthusiast with one LS1 vehicle, intake mods, running speed density tune:
- Single Vehicle LS1 license (2 credits)
- Single Vehicle VCM Enhancement (2 credits)
- 4 credits spare (eg. decides to fit a supercharger in future, can go to 2 or 3 bar Speed Density on this vehicle at no additional charge)

Enthusiast with one LS1 vehicle, one LS2 vehicle:
- Single Vehicle LS1 license (2 credits)
- Single Vehicle LS2 license (2 credits)
- 4 credits spare (eg. could license a friends LS1 car/truck and another friends LS2 car/truck)

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86 GT Convertable 3800

[This message has been edited by Tweeder (edited 02-06-2013).]

i bought the Pro version .as far as i remember , it came preloaded with 8 credits .i used 2 to tune my ecotec so i still have 6 left .if you buy the standard version you get less credits and less features .HP tuners is great for my purposes , but i am not a professional tuner .but i do know the limits of what my ECM can do and most pro tuners dont .HP tuners can not tune parameters that do not exist in the ECM .the 2.2 ecotec ECM is very limited as to what can be changed .there are no VE charts for example .

quote Originally posted by kikinz24: Idk but.I completly disagree with you I've had about 6-7 years of tuning with hpt and I feel its well worth the money. You can virtually change ALL table from fuel/ spark transmission info remove dtcs... I've used iit on a few vehicles where custom maps needed to be.made up after several logs and teat runs.. I feel without it there would have never been a "final" tune or safe driveability... as for a 3800 the parameters are great and there is a TON of tunes in the respository. Anywhere from a basic cai to complete built sky high motors... a lot of guys on the gp forums. I'm a +1 for it best money I've ever spent. Plus I've pretty much made back my initial costs tuning cars locally.

Actually,there are dozens and dozens and dozens of tables HP doesn't let you have i've heard.
Offhand I know they don't allow the ETC tables in their software as it is too easy to brick a pcm/etc if you don't know what your doing.
Ask them for it and they won't give them to you either.
A quick email to tunercat got me all those available tables within a few hours.

If you saw a true tuning package that was not restricted you would likely be surprised.
HP is a watered down version for the masses as i've had it explained to me and seen over the years.

Granted,my opinion is coming from never having used it. But no need since I have most applications covered with EFILive commercial and TCII.
I won't claim to be a pro,but I don't consider HP a full tuning suite cause it is not complete from what I know of it. (Been on the hp forum for many years as a lurker from time to time)
But I understand it is a very handy and easy to use tool and i'd love to check it out.
For ease of use I would likely put it near the top next to EFILive as far as tuning suites that are per vin cost.

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 02-07-2013).]

I've never had an issue using it and from all you would ever need to change in a pcm is there.. now as. For some tables not being editable this is true in some rare situations.. but for a 3800 sc it allows you into all the.tables needed... as for coming across tables you cant edit there is ways around it for instance I had a 97 z24 built up and turbod.. there was no way to read a 2+ map sensor there is no maf.. And change the spark per boost info. But in that situation you have to do a completly custom map/ spark. Combo .. but like I saod that is a rare occourance. Hp tuners supports the 3800 platform very well. And I've tuned several with no issues.

quote Originally posted by kikinz24: I've never had an issue using it and from all you would ever need to change in a pcm is there.. now as. For some tables not being editable this is true in some rare situations.. but for a 3800 sc it allows you into all the.tables needed... as for coming across tables you cant edit there is ways around it for instance I had a 97 z24 built up and turbod.. there was no way to read a 2+ map sensor there is no maf.. And change the spark per boost info. But in that situation you have to do a completly custom map/ spark. Combo .. but like I saod that is a rare occourance. Hp tuners supports the 3800 platform very well. And I've tuned several with no issues.

I agree. This thread is splitting hairs far too much. HP Tuners on the 3800SC PCM's gives you all the access that you need to tune. The program was designed for applications where the tuner is interfacing with engine management sensors that expect to be seen and input to the PCM.If you change injectors or use a different MAF you can just import the table for it and adjust as you go.
Tuning is simply timing, airflow, fuel, removal of DTC's and an occasional trans tweak. That's it! I'd like to know what additional tables are missing from the program and need to be accessed for proper tuning?

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I didn't mean to imply that it was not a capable tool by any means.
Just that it is not complete.
I look at it similar to the way I see gun control and gov. deciding what we don't need.
hptuners decided that the other tables were not safe enough for people to have so they do not provide them.
In their case,it is their product and they can do as they please.

Dennis,i'm guessing you've not tuned an ETC car?
ETC have TM built into them,as well as tables controlling the ramp/opening rates of the blade.
Offhand I think an ETC 3800 table for a 2k camaro was limited to about a 6mph ramp rate in low,med and high speed chart.
I don't believe HP provides these,and is what I was thinking about.

[This message has been edited by DefEddie (edited 02-09-2013).]

quote Originally posted by DefEddie:

A fellow TUNERCAT user I see...

I own HP Tuners VCM Suite and Tunercat OBD2. I have TinyTuner and used to own DHP Powrtuner.

HP Tuners is great with the respect that they have a great UI and there is also scanning software built in. But their "Gen1 OBD2" (ie: 3800 OBD2) V6 support leaves a lot of be desired vs. what other tuning software gives you access to (which may not be a big deal to MOST people). They also seem to always be stuck in a "beta" version (which quite frankly the beta warning messages I see every time I start the program do get annoying). I will say they are usually the first to roll out support for newer (late model) stuff.

TinyTuner is free but it is open source and has no bootloader. That means if you want to actually read from or write to a PCM, you'll need other software and hardware to do it. The UI isn't that great either. It also has no scanner. It does, however, have a few tuneable features it gives you access to that nobody else does (which may not be useful to everyone).

DHP Powrtuner used to be the ONLY game in town that supported V6 OBD2 platforms and they knew it (which is why they were hugely expensive when originally sold). The UI sucks and the software and bootloader are both full of bugs. Many people have bricked PCMs due to these issues and maybe that played a part as to why DHP has been out of business for some time. Good luck getting any professional support for it. Sure there are internet forums where you can find support so long as you can trust the source AND someone has run into the same problem before that you are having now and they have a fix for it. But any "software updates" are going to be written by 3rd parties.

C.A.T.S. (Tunercat) OBD2 has great UI and excellent (and on-going) support for all platforms. I have worked extensively with Tunercat over the years to add new features I wanted and they have always been happy and quick to help me. Through our work together, we've been able to do some pretty incredible things with the V6 PCMs including getting a 1998 GTP L67 PCM to run other (than 4T65-E) transmissions such as the 4L60-E and 4T60-E. The only "downside" is there is no scanner function included with this setup and it is NOT commercially available for purchase by itself. You can either buy a retail version of JET DST which is basically Tunercat or you can buy a Moates Roadrunner emulating PCM and get the official version of Tunercat OBD2 with it. USED Tunercat OBD2 setups do go up for sale from time to time but good luck getting it as they sell fast.

Having said all that, for the average Joe or Jane wanting to do his or her own tuning, you would probably be best off getting HP Tuners VCM Suite. This gives you what you need to tune and scan all in one package. The company is still in business which means they offer direct support for their product (although at times it can be quite slow in getting a fix if you have a problem). They also have a forum where you can get tips and advice from people who also own and use HP Tuners. Note that most of you won't need the PRO version. I have the standard version and it works fine for everything I need to do with it.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

Thank You Tweeder and wftb for the clarification!
Lot of great posts,
I am adding this to my favorites.

quote Originally posted by kikinz24: Idk but.I completly disagree with you I've had about 6-7 years of tuning with hpt and I feel its well worth the money. You can virtually change ALL table from fuel/ spark transmission info remove dtcs... I've used iit on a few vehicles where custom maps needed to be.made up after several logs and teat runs.. I feel without it there would have never been a "final" tune or safe driveability... as for a 3800 the parameters are great and there is a TON of tunes in the respository. Anywhere from a basic cai to complete built sky high motors... a lot of guys on the gp forums. I'm a +1 for it best money I've ever spent. Plus I've pretty much made back my initial costs tuning cars locally.

yeah? I have flashed over 1000 times, and I could sell my DHP for more than I paid for it right now. i have tuned ~50 cars, and I dont really charge people but if I did i would have made roughly $5000 more than you would have at $100 a car in HPT.

quote Are you are saying that the obsolete and unsupported DHP program is better?

Define "supported". HPT has not come out with a new version of their software for 1.5+ years (I dont remember when their last update was, but it was awhile ago and I dont care to google it). They have also publicly said they will not be adding features to the 3800 platform many times.

quote Actually,there are dozens and dozens and dozens of tables HP doesn't let you have i've heard. A quick email to tunercat got me all those available tables within a few hours.

yes, but I have been able to discover a few reasons as to why.. HPT does a fair amount of actual testing on their stuff... While TC knows how to shimmy through assembly quickly and easily, it does not always show the big picture of how the code was actually compiled in some cases... Its easy to assume alot of things would work "logically" but there were many things done in the past that would suggest otherwise.

quote I agree. This thread is splitting hairs far too much.

How so.. the differences between these things are very large, and very factual. if tuning is so easy, and you dont need alot of tables.. then why is it DHP is crap and spending a literally infinite amount of money more on a HPT is "better" for far less features?

quote Many people have bricked PCMs due to these issues and maybe that played a part as to why DHP

Completely wrong. I have flashed ~1000 times and known people to do more... out of my circle of tuning friends we have never bricked a PCM... My laptop has just flat turned off in a flash once or twice and I was able to recover easily.

quote Good luck getting any professional support for it.

Charles is still active on the gp forums, as are 2 former "employees". HPT support is not much more than a forum you post on and hope someone gets to it that knows what they are talking about too... so its easily a wash here.

You worked on the V6 VDF's?
Then you likely have a few of my files onhand and I also owe you a big thank you
When John was developing support for them I was working at a dealer as well as doing tuning and problem solving work for local car lots.
They were more than happy to give me run of their lots and allow me to download .bin's of all the V6 cars which I then sent to John for development of the V6 VDF's.
So your work is much appreciated.

I have TCII,TT as well as EfiLive commercial.
I've only somewhat looked at the TT but it looks like an excellent tool,Efilive I don't use except for a bidirectional scantool cause i'll be damned if i'm paying to program a vehicle after spending all that cash on the tool.
But it makes for an excellent *almost dealer quality scantool for diag purposes.

I flash everything with TCII,John is awesome and I've not had better support from a company ever.
I make sure and tell him I appreciate him in every email i've sent over the last several years.

quote Originally posted by DefEddie: You worked on the V6 VDF's? Then you likely have a few of my files onhand and I also owe you a big thank you When John was developing support for them I was working at a dealer as well as doing tuning and problem solving work for local car lots. They were more than happy to give me run of their lots and allow me to download .bin's of all the V6 cars which I then sent to John for development of the V6 VDF's. So your work is much appreciated. I have TCII,TT as well as EfiLive commercial. I've only somewhat looked at the TT but it looks like an excellent tool,Efilive I don't use except for a bidirectional scantool cause i'll be damned if i'm paying to program a vehicle after spending all that cash on the tool. But it makes for an excellent *almost dealer quality scantool for diag purposes. I flash everything with TCII,John is awesome and I've not had better support from a company ever. I make sure and tell him I appreciate him in every email i've sent over the last several years.

I have glanced at some TC2 VDF's but I have never had a reason to dig into anything... more is not really better in most cases, these stock ecus operate very simple.