I am messing around with ideas for my Ferrari 308 replica as I am putting a 3800 S/C into it as part of the rebuild and always wanted to have the more exotic sound closer to the 180* flat plane crank sound that comes from the exotics.

There has been lots of discussion on headers for 3800's and various ways to change the sound of the 3800 on several different forums but I have not found, to date, any discussion on a 3800 180* header setup.

I found a link over on 60degreesv6.com about a guy that did a 3400 180* header setup that sounds pretty cool. Link below so I now know a 60* V6 can be done in this manner. He linked 1/4, 2/5, 3/6 and then into a 3-1 collector and down into muffler etc. He did a good job of routing everything and I think it would be pretty tight in a stick Fiero setup but I am just running ideas around.
http://60degreev6.com/forum...d7c1f5d6d8f358d43ab5

I am wondering what primaries you would need to pair to get a 180* system on the 3800 with firing order of 1-6-5-4-3-2 ?? I was trying to run the numbers of what would connect up and I just wasn't getting it.

Thanks
Don

One key to performance (according to ZZ Performance) is the use of 1 3/4" primaries on 3800SC headers. Quite frankly I don't care if my engine sounds fast; I want it to go fast. As long as the sound is manageable its fine with me.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Powerlog manifold, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 12-10-2012).]

I was hoping someone would do this with a 3800!!!!!!!!!!! Hell yes! You are talking about that Monte Carlo yes? If you can get that sound, I will follow with the same config on my car. It will be interesting to see what effect my turbo would have on the sound.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 12-10-2012).]

I plan on doing this to a regular Fiero 2.8 v6 but can't seem to come up with an attack plan either. From what I understand you cant make it 180 degrees since they 120 degrees apart, but you can still get a nice sound by either doing 1+4, 2+5, 3+6 or another guy just connected 1+5 then after reconnected the 3 to merge back in later. Same thing on the otherside, 2+6 then 4 merged in after.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/109963.html

[This message has been edited by DaytonTD (edited 12-10-2012).]

The headers that guy made on the 60 degree V6 forum are actually 360 degree headers. That said, the sound from them should be pretty unique.

Edit to add: the guy on the 60 degree V6 forum paired up cylinders 1+4, 2+5, and 3+6. So in essence he has three V-twin engines running in unison. Also keep in mind that since the 90 degree V6 sounds different from a 60 degree V6, a 3800 with those headers will sound different from that 3400.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-10-2012).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I was hoping someone would do this with a 3800!!!!!!!!!!! Hell yes! You are talking about that Monte Carlo yes? If you can get that sound, I will follow with the same config on my car. It will be interesting to see what effect my turbo would have on the sound.

you could bolt a catfish onto your heads and get the same sound with a turbo car...

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: you could bolt a catfish onto your heads and get the same sound with a turbo car...

Now thats a nice mental image!

Not the "180 degree headers on a V6" topic again...

The 3800's firing order is 1-6-5-4-3-2, which is the same as 6-5-4-3-2-1, which has even fire banks, just like the 60 degree engine's 1-2-3-4-5-6 firing order.

The (newer) 90 degree V6's just have 30 degree split crank throws to be even fire.

If the primaries are collected per bank, then the collectors will be even-fire with 240 degree intervals. This is nothing but "normal" equal length headers.

quote Originally posted by 355Fiero: I found a link over on 60degreesv6.com about a guy that did a 3400 180* header setup that sounds pretty cool. Link below so I now know a 60* V6 can be done in this manner. He linked 1/4, 2/5, 3/6 and then into a 3-1 collector and down into muffler etc. He did a good job of routing everything and I think it would be pretty tight in a stick Fiero setup but I am just running ideas around. http://60degreev6.com/forum...d7c1f5d6d8f358d43ab5

I didn't go through it far enough to listen to a video...
You certainly could do that in a Fiero. The big question is... what does it get you?

There's been a small amount of discussion on BMW forums about doing essentially this with inline-6 primaries... I think someone knew of one that had been done, but there wasn't any extra power to be had that way.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Will: Not the "180 degree headers on a V6" topic again... The 3800's firing order is 1-6-5-4-3-2, which is the same as 6-5-4-3-2-1, which has even fire banks, just like the 60 degree engine's 1-2-3-4-5-6 firing order. The (newer) 90 degree V6's just have 30 degree split crank throws to be even fire. If the primaries are collected per bank, then the collectors will be even-fire with 240 degree intervals. This is nothing but "normal" equal length headers. I didn't go through it far enough to listen to a video... You certainly could do that in a Fiero. The big question is... what does it get you? There's been a small amount of discussion on BMW forums about doing essentially this with inline-6 primaries... I think someone knew of one that had been done, but there wasn't any extra power to be had that way.

Its not power, its the sound. Atleast, thats how I see it.

Sound is the main reason for the replicas I have and just to work out some different options for the swaps. I have a 3800 s/c series II and wanted to see what was out there for a different sound on my Ferrari 308 replica. Thanks for the firing order confirmation Will and what the pairing would need to be as that is what I was looking for.

Sounds like the pairing would be the same as the 60*?

Cheers
Don

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Its not power, its the sound. Atleast, thats how I see it.

For a cross-plane crank V8, with uneven fire banks, it's about power. The optimum size for even fire collectors is smaller than the optimum size for odd-fire collectors. That means that even fire collectors can take advantage of the velocity of the charge better than odd-fire collectors and enhance scavenging across a wider range of operating RPM... the area under the curve becomes greater.

What makes 3800's sound horrible in most installations are the log manifolds, not the firing order. Build conventional long-tube headers and see if they meet your needs... THEN try something exotic.

The even-fire collector, *NOT* the 180 degree firing interval that's responsible for the sound the headers make...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-11-2012).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Its not power, its the sound. Atleast, thats how I see it.

They go hand-in-hand. The sound comes from the exhaust flowing more efficiently through the system. With the exhaust flowing more efficiently, you can make more power, for longer.

Equal length headers would certainly be easier to do as a start.

I just got primer on the 308 replica today and will be heading out for paint next week so I am now looking at the next phase around interior and engine....

Thanks for the info Will.
Don