This is the right rear wheel connection block. After bleeding the rear brakes the pedal was still soft and it's not hard to see why. This was back in June. In September TFS has a one-day sale so I ordered the kit of stainless steel lines. It's my understanding that to replace this line, the one that runs all the way from the master cylinder to this connection block, you need to remove the spare and the tub. I will have to do this outside in the parking lot, so before starting I'm wondering if there is any chance of a simpler, faster way to get the car roadworthy. Looking at this picture it seems like the leak might be from the connection, as in it's just loose and could be tightened. Apparently you can get easily bent lines with connectors already in place for all the other lines, but this one has to be custom made.

Obviously the answer seems pretty easy, but I probably could have avoided this whole problem for a long time if I had realized all I really needed was new pads because the linings had separated from the metal parts of the brake pads. I noticed when the pads came out on the other wheel the linings came out loose. Now I think that was the cause of the whisk, whisk sound that had always plagued this car. The other side had that problem too. Maybe they fell out also, instead of wearing through as I had thought. Maybe there is still a way to keep this simple.



This is the drip from the leak that happens when pumping the pedal:

See all of the rust on the stone guard wire wrapping upstream from the connection? Looks like a line with a hole in it, rather than a loose fitting.

Its pretty uncommon to see a brake fitting loosen up, if you see a leak on an old system, you can pretty well figure that the leak is due to a bad line.

That line is shot. Do yourself a favor and get some PB blaster and soak the fittings really good before you loosen them. Use flare (line) wrenches

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 10-06-2012).]

When it comes to brakes, do it right.

Thanks all for your replies. I was just hoping. It sure looks like the line, but why would it fail at this exact time? Except for the grinding, the brakes worked fine before I parked if for fear the rotor would suddenly wear through and lock up that one wheel. I was hoping I had maybe tried to loosen the connection for some reason, although I don't remember that. See how there is fluid at the base of the connection? Of course that might be PB blaster that I put on. It's literally months between attempts at this project; it's hard to remember what I did.

Are there any easy ways to replace this huge line? I've heard about cutting the line and then putting a deep socket on the remaining piece. This sounds reasonable, but would further disable the car. I've also read that the whole line should be removed in order to use it as a guide to bending the TFS tube which has at least a shipping bend. Cutting might reduce the usefulness of the originals as patterns for the replacements. Even more likely, if it requires cutting to get it loose it will probably be all scrap and useless once it comes off.

I know it's desperate, but if I had asked more questions earlier I would have just replaced the pads and could maybe have avoided some of these problems.

Once the line is removed will the master cylinder have to be bled or is there a way to plug the hole while installing the new line?

For what it's worth, I bought the Fiero Store's stainless steel line kit, and it came with every single piece of the kit... the entire thing. If yours did not come with it, then either they're not selling it with the kit anymore, or they forgot to include it, or something... I would double-check.


Good luck!

check the rest of the line to make sure it's not rusted. If it's good, you can buy a short line already flared with the bubble flare. Then get a double flare union, a flare nut and double flaring tool and cut back the long line and flare the end. cut one end of the short line and double flare that end. Make sure you put on the nut first. Then connect the lines with the union. Do not use any sealant or teflon tape on any brake fittings. Make sure the flare is a double flare and do not think about using a compression fitting, If you haven't flared a brake line before, you should practice the flaring on a scrap piece. It's not rocket science but you have to make sure it's done right. Also, use a good tubing cutter and assemble with flare wrenches. You will need inch and metric, the bubble flare nut is 11mm i think, the double flare nuts are usually always SAE sizes.

If you replace the entire line, you don't have to bleed the master unless you press the pedal. Once you replace the line, open the pass caliper bleed screw and let it gravity bleed. It will take awhile, make sure you keep the master reservoir filled. When fluid starts to come out the bleeder, bleed the caliper and then do the Driver side one.

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 10-06-2012).]

Thank you Tony C, that's the stuff. The Fiero Store set did include that line, that's why I bought it, otherwise I would have just gone with the Autozone or other premade lines. The possibility of patching was something I was wondering about. But all those tools and practicing made me think the Fierostore set on sale was the better way to go. I've never removed the tub. How long does that take? Will I be able to remove the tub, replace the line and put it back together in one day?

removing the tub is not that hard, takes 20 minutes or so. You should be able to do the line in one day.

Yeah, if it takes twenty minutes I should have it out in a couple hours...

I had the brake line from the master cyl to the rear brakes spring a leak sitting parked in the heated garage. My car is a 76 and there in a lot worse looking shape than yours. Ive been driving it all summer with no problem, then one day I was backing out of the garage and noticed the pedal went to the floor. Whats worse for me is it dont even have a dual master cylinder...one brake out and theyre all gone.

Yeah, that figures. At least it didn't happen on the road or away from home. Happening when I'm working on the brakes anyway is probably one of the best times, actually. I wondered if maybe, since I was replacing almost everything else, I should have been replacing the hard lines at the same time. Now I'm wondering about the master cylinder, booster, and vacuum hose. That's all that's between the project I'm halfway through and a complete new set of brakes.

It really makes me wonder about the whole car. Up until this the repairs have been minimal and there hasn't been much downtime. Now I may not have use of the car for an entire year on account of this one project. I see smoke from the exhaust after extended idling now. A new or rebuilt engine or swap probably loom on the horizon. There are still the many little things like the radio that finally works, but needs an aerial, the blower motor needs the hole drilled to put oil on the bearing, weather strips, the headlight gear (not the one that you can buy, the other one that's actuallly two), etc., etc., etc. I've been riding a bike ten miles each way to work. That actually works out better.

Sounds like you need to get ahold of Paul V. for a good mechanic referral. I would volunteer but I live in Rockford.

Edit; I just finished replacing ALL of my Brake lines yesterday on my 88 coupe. I did it on my 86 GT too.

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Project Genisis Lo Budget 3800SC swap

88 Coupe under construction

[This message has been edited by hercimer01 (edited 10-08-2012).]

I replaced all of mine a few weeks ago with fierostore lines. It's much easier to cut that line and put a socket over the end, mine were to rusted to get off with a flare wrench, and yours look worse then mine.

I cut all of my lines there and put the fitting in a vice, I don't know if that bolt is strong enough to hold it back. Did you get hoses too or just lines?

I'm something of a compulsive shopper. I have both the stainless lines (braided hoses) and all four rubber hoses, countless sets of caliper pins and sleeves, all four calipers, pad, speed bleeders, fluid, new shocks, mounts, steering damper, ball joints, rotors, bearings, seals, a bunch of tube benders, sockets, wrenches, torque wrenches, crows feet, impact wrench, paint, brushes, drop cloths, sanding wheel, it just goes on and on. Tubing cutter, though, not so much. I feel the little tubing cutters are generally awfully expensive, usually at least ten bucks - so do I really need one of those or could I just use line pliars or something? I do have a drill and grind wheel, but I don't think I have a cutting wheel - oh, boy, maybe I could buy another tool!

They're threatening to cut my hours at work. Last time they did this was in June. Since then I've had holidays and a few Sunday's off. Maybe I can work on this project Wednesday and Thursday, my threatened days off. Of course the cuts they threatened for today lasted less than an hour - I may never have another day off!

It's not so much that I don't trust anyone to work on my car, but at this point it's pretty awkward because it would have to be towed or done in the parking lot. I never know when I might actually be off work with decent weather even just for myself to work outside. I saw a lot of good reviews for a place near Addison and Milwaukee, and there is a very cheap labor rate place only about a mile away. I'm getting more and more stubborn about doing it myself or not bothering with it at all. At this point the biggest motivation is not having to deal with a car I can't use for another winter. Even if I get it running I would rather ride my bike all winter - it's like that.

Seriously though, keep it coming! If I had somehow realized the most likely problem I had with the brakes for as far back as I can remember was simply the lilning separating from the backing plate of the pads - well, I could have kept on with my great luck keeping the car running for next to nothing. There may still be an easy way to do this.

You have a PM

quote Originally posted by Formula: It's much easier to cut that line and put a socket over the end, mine were to rusted to get off with a flare wrench, and yours look worse then mine.

exactly. You can also heat the nut with a propane torch and spray with some pb blaster. But don't bother trying to save the line/nut. It isn't worth it.

Missing rubber engine splash shields will cause the lines to get coated with road salt etc.
Fix lines and get new engine splash shields.
Can't get new then try used 87+ shields. older is ok but 87+ uses better "rubber"

Fixing dead line is a bandaid. other line a rear fitting look like crap to and will fail during fixing or likely soon after...

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

It certainly seems like a good idea to replace all the lines especially now that I have them. I plan to make one small attempt to tigten the nut, but then I think it would be best to go whole hog. Consensus seems to favor cutting the lines, but I don't recall anyone saying how exactly they did this. It seems like a tubing cutter would be awkward, expensive, and slow under the circumstances. I'm thinking cutoff wheel on cordless drill. I have the drill. Cutoff wheels and arbors seem to be readily available at low cost.

What do you do to keep the fluid from running out of the master cylinder? Should I disconnect and plug the connectors on the MC first? I saw plugs available on O'Reilly's web site, but at the store they had never heard of anything like that and couldn't find them. Can you buy or make screw in plugs? Or would it be simpler to replace the MC? O'Reilly's had a rebuilt unit available in a day or two for under thirty bucks. They all seem to come with what you need to bench bleed and instructions. After the first attempt I was careful to use short strokes, but I'm told I may have already ruined the seals by pressing the pedal too far down.

Splash guards? Never heard of those. That might explain some other things. Another project... Anyone got a picture?

I'm thinking it might be better to start on some of the smaller lines in the back, rather than the big one I actually need. The biggest line requires removing the tub and straightening the shipping bend at the least and would be the hardest to replace if I messed it up.

I was all set to buy a torch at Ace to use on the bleeders, but the guy who was going to open the glass case advised against it. He said it's risky from a fire standpoint and hard to do right if you've never done it before. He said I'd probably end up welding it in place instead. That seemed about right to me, in fact that might be what someone else did to the one that broke off. The other one opened without heat. Does brake fluid burn? You can see from the picture that it's already on the outside.

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 10-13-2012).]

Ended up getting a tubing cutter, but still no certain time that I'll be able to start on this project. Maybe a couple days or more this week. Ace said a set of tin snips might be enough, but that seems unlikely to me. Another possiblility was a small bolt cutter, but the guy pointed out that it might be difficult to open the handles enough under the car and all. They also loan a bigger set of bolt cutters, but when you borrow tools like that you end up spending valuable time going back and forth to the store. I don't think a cutoff wheel on a battery drill would be fast enough. I'm still not sure what to do about the fluid leaking out after cutting the tubes. I went to O'Reilly's, but ran out of patience before they go to me. It seems like a new MC is how I'll have to go. Stopping the fluid seems like more trouble than it's worth.

Ok, I'm confused . . . why would you need a new master cylinder? This repair is not at the master cylinder is it? Don't worry about the fluid bleeding out, when the repair is all done bleed the whole system with fresh brake fluid.

Doing "butcher repairs" on brakes is not a good thing to do, fix it right the first time or have it repaired by someone who can do it right. You not only put yourself in danger but others on the road.

Don't you have to "bench bleed" the master cylinder if the fluid runs out? I'm asking how you can replace all the lines without having that happen and therefore wouldn't it be easier to just replace it. Why spend time and money trying to save a rather inexpensive part that might very well need to be replaced anyway?

As far as safety, if you only knew. Most people who know me would probably tell you I miss out on most of life because I insist on being too careful. As a practical matter my experience has been if I pay someone to work on the Fiero I still have to fix it myself, after I get it back and pay them. Most people outside of this forum know less about this car and its brakes than I do. I have worked on brakes before without causing any harm to anyone. I have driven a vehicle which suffered a brake failure, but I wasn't the one doing the repairs. That didn't result in any harm, or an accident either.

I do appreciate your input. The more problems people can predict the better I can avoid them.

quote Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: Don't you have to "bench bleed" the master cylinder if the fluid runs out?

Yes, most times. Tank is dry lets air into MC.
See my Cave, Brake Service

Can try jacking rear until MC is level. front section is good so try in car first.

Avoid bending MC lines... loosen line at both ends. Lines a short and doesn't like bending.

Careful you don't over torque line nut on Al MC and Combination Valve... Over torquing can crush Al body meets line flange.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurassic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top and bottom of every forum page...)

[This message has been edited by theogre (edited 10-17-2012).]

So, yes, basically, replace the MC rather than try to keep it from getting air in it?