Hey guys,

I did a few searches on here and each post contradicts the other... I fell I'm going in circles here.

What clutch fits the f23 transmission when mated to a 3800SC-II ? and the 3800SC flywheel, does it need to be machined down to .084?? and do I need a spacer on the HTOB? If I do need a spacer, could it not be eliminated by not machining the flywheel to 0.84?

and last but not least, If I have a spacer on the HTOB, do I still need to put a stopper on the clutch pedal to prevent the HTOB from over expanding? Or is this the purpose of the spacer??

Every time I read posts about this, people who never even did the swap chime in and mix up all the data. I would like to hear from those who have done it, what is 100% sure to work and what is 100% sure to fail.

At nearly $500 a clutch and the man-hours to swap it, it gets expensive to do trial an error.

Thanks in advance!

Im not trying to be rude, but this always comes off that way:

Is there any reason to make another thread about this discussion?

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/124608.html

In the last post, one specifically said what he HAS successfully used. But, not everyone is going to want to use the high clamp, and all other combinations have had issues with the PP hitting the diff bump pretty much.

Watch that thread, and wait. Someone will find a combination that will work. My money is still on the 01 cavalier clutch with a 3800 flywheel machined to .840" until someone proves that it does not fit otherwise.

Patience.

Do you mean this quote:

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: Slideways, I used the SPEC 3 PP and also a 3+PP. The SPEC 3 for getrag hit the F23 bell, the SPEC 3+ with High Clamp PP for getrag did NOT hit the bell. Neither used a HTOB spacer. I don't know my flywheel thickness off the top of my head.

It doesn’t mention Spec 3 for Fiero Getrag of Cavalier Getrag. Also, earlier in that same conversation they mention that the same clutch and pressure plate combination has some production run variations. some fit, some don't... ???

And in this post it doesn't mention if a clutch pedal stop was required or not.

It would be nice to have a topic that has clean and concise information of what work and what to avoid. If you use clutch A, you need a spacer and a stop, if you use clutch B you don't need a spacer, if you use clutch C you are in big trouble.

It would be nice to hear from someone who has it setup in their car right now. I understand there are at least a few 3800SC's with the F23 running around at the moment.

Cheers!

One of the problems with this combo is so far, I have never seen anyone measure and confirm the actual flywheel/clutch face distance from the 2.2L that originally came with the F23's that people are using. They are assuming it is the same as the typical depth the 3800's use (more on that later), but I have yet to see anyone document the actual dimension and this is a critical dimension.

Additionally, I haven't seen anyone document the actual dimensions of the stock 2.2 pressure plate. The critical things here are the overall shape/size and the release finger placement on a new clutch. The depth of the fingers from the face of the bellhousing is a critical dimension for proper HTOB operation.

To have a successful solution to this swap, you first should fully understand the stock setup and why it works the way it does and what the critical aspects are that must be retained. Then with that information you can look for other components that will mimic the stock 2.2 stuff in these critical areas and quickly identify the ones that don't. Without these dimensions to verify fitment, all you are doing is throwing parts together and hoping for the best.

I have said it before, and will say it again because the number keeps coming up and being posted... I do not thing the .840 is the optimal flywheel face depth for the 3800 using a stock fiero or other FWD transmission. I have measured several 2.8 and 2.5 flywheel face depths and have never had one measure as thick as .840. Most have been in the .810 to .830 range, so I would want to target .820 vs. the .840 commonly cited dimension. Some would say I am just being nit picky, but over the years there have been countless threads about using a .840 flywheel and having pressure plate to transmission interferance and then they surface the flywheel to be thinner (in the .810 to .820 range). Some blame the issue on pressure plate style, but I suspect it is the flywheel being deeper than the fiero ones.

quote Originally posted by Purple86GT: It doesn’t mention Spec 3 for Fiero Getrag of Cavalier Getrag. Fiero Getrag, which ironically I used with my ISUZU trans before swapping to the F23. And in this post it doesn't mention if a clutch pedal stop was required or not. Neither setup used a Pedal Stop It would be nice to hear from someone who has it setup in their car right now. I had it working for years, since 07 actually, right or wrong. The original SPEC PP rubbed the bellhousing. I let it 'clear itself' and it never caused an issue. I used the high clamp fiero getrag SPEC PP on the 2nd F23, and it didn't hit. And no, its not in my car anymore, the flywheel bolts broke off in the crank, and the whole flywheel/disc/PP is still sitting under my bench, fully assembled, probably with bolt heads still clanking around. Cheers!

I can't get the part numbers ordered each time because I don't have access to my school email anymore, which i used to communicate with SPEC.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 08-29-2012).]

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: One of the problems with this combo is so far, I have never seen anyone measure and confirm the actual flywheel/clutch face distance from the 2.2L that originally came with the F23's that people are using. They are assuming it is the same as the typical depth the 3800's use (more on that later), but I have yet to see anyone document the actual dimension and this is a critical dimension. Additionally, I haven't seen anyone document the actual dimensions of the stock 2.2 pressure plate. The critical things here are the overall shape/size and the release finger placement on a new clutch. The depth of the fingers from the face of the bellhousing is a critical dimension for proper HTOB operation. To have a successful solution to this swap, you first should fully understand the stock setup and why it works the way it does and what the critical aspects are that must be retained. Then with that information you can look for other components that will mimic the stock 2.2 stuff in these critical areas and quickly identify the ones that don't. Without these dimensions to verify fitment, all you are doing is throwing parts together and hoping for the best. I have said it before, and will say it again because the number keeps coming up and being posted... I do not thing the .840 is the optimal flywheel face depth for the 3800 using a stock fiero or other FWD transmission. I have measured several 2.8 and 2.5 flywheel face depths and have never had one measure as thick as .840. Most have been in the .810 to .830 range, so I would want to target .820 vs. the .840 commonly cited dimension. Some would say I am just being nit picky, but over the years there have been countless threads about using a .840 flywheel and having pressure plate to transmission interferance and then they surface the flywheel to be thinner (in the .810 to .820 range). Some blame the issue on pressure plate style, but I suspect it is the flywheel being deeper than the fiero ones.

Can you show me (picture) or clearly explain what you want me to measure? I have a digital caliper ruler and access to a 2200 with flywheel clutch and pressure plate still attached. (at the local u-pull) I can get all the measurments you guys need. Then please translate it for me into a specific clutch setup.

quote Originally posted by Jncomutt: In my personal experience... This Hit... This Fit...

What are the differences between the two other than the visible color and label, also what are the part numbers for the two?

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86 GT Convertable 3800

quote Originally posted by Purple86GT: Can you show me (picture) or clearly explain what you want me to measure? I have a digital caliper ruler and access to a 2200 with flywheel clutch and pressure plate still attached. (at the local u-pull) I can get all the measurments you guys need. Then please translate it for me into a specific clutch setup.

For the flywheel/clutch face depth, you need to measure from the bellhousing flange on the enging to the face of the flwyheel. Ideally, this would be a plunge depth measurement, but in this picture I used the ID teeth so the display was visable (not a 3800 or F23 flywheel in the picture):


To measure the pressure plate release fingers, place a ruler across the center of the clutch and across the top of the pressure plate fingers. Sometimes the ruler will not touch the fingers, so you will need the distance between the ruler and the bellhousing and subtract the gap between the ruler and the pressure plate fingers. If the ruler is resting on the pressure plate fingers, then just measure the distance between the ruler and bellhousing face on both sides and average the # (just in case the ruler doesn't sit parallel with the bellhousing face).

nvm

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 08-29-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Fierobsessed: Is there any reason to make another thread about this discussion?

Actually, I think there is. Although these discussions are great, it's a lot of crap to wade through and to some people can cause more confusion than help.

I'm waiting for the same info so I can order parts for my swap. I have enough money to do it, but I don't have so much that I want to risk throwing away a lot of cash, time and effort needlessly. It would be nice to compile a list of what combinations have actually worked in the real word.

Jncommut didn't you post a year ago about the first one hitting I recall reading about it. Those pp are completly different design 1 was for a 4 spd and 1 was for a 5spd correct? The second I'm pretty sure is a sc033 which is for the fwd getrag 90-92. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[This message has been edited by kikinz24 (edited 08-29-2012).]

I asked Dean @ Whodeanies about the f23/clutch assembly. He doesn't want to share what he considers IP (Intellectual Property) of his method. I do know we used a Spec S3 FIERO clutch I had laying around from another project. There is a custom flywheel made to Deans specs. He also said he had some bellhousing to PP interference. Of course, no one asked me how I felt about grinding MY transmission to make it work. I would have went with a clutch that DID NOT REQUIRE GRINDING the transmission to clear. That is a piss poor solution if you ask me... but no one did...........

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I asked Dean @ Whodeanies about the f23/clutch assembly. He doesn't want to share what he considers IP (Intellectual Property) of his method. I do know we used a Spec S3 FIERO clutch I had laying around from another project. There is a custom flywheel made to Deans specs. He also said he had some bellhousing to PP interference. Of course, no one asked me how I felt about grinding MY transmission to make it work. I would have went with a clutch that DID NOT REQUIRE GRINDING the transmission to clear. That is a piss poor solution if you ask me... but no one did...........

Lol.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I asked Dean @ Whodeanies about the f23/clutch assembly. He doesn't want to share what he considers IP (Intellectual Property) of his method. I do know we used a Spec S3 FIERO clutch I had laying around from another project. There is a custom flywheel made to Deans specs. He also said he had some bellhousing to PP interference. Of course, no one asked me how I felt about grinding MY transmission to make it work. I would have went with a clutch that DID NOT REQUIRE GRINDING the transmission to clear. That is a piss poor solution if you ask me... but no one did...........

Wow... Intellectual property?? ok then, what comes around goes around...

[This message has been edited by Purple86GT (edited 08-30-2012).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: He doesn't want to share what he considers IP (Intellectual Property) of his method.

LOL, I hope you signed all the appropriate paperwork to ensure he's protected.

quote Originally posted by Purple86GT: Ok, I'm off to the local u-pull yard tomorrow to get the measurments. I will post them here with some pictures. Can a moderator then clean up this thread? or maybe we can create a new one with JUST THE FACTS and no chatting? If the thread can stear others like me in the right direction then I feel we accomplished something. So I hope to have the info posted tomorrow afternoon, if not, it will be on tuesday as I am going to the cottage for the long weekend. Cheers!

You are new here, I understand. We only have one Mod and he owns the place. Also, I don't think there is a single thread on this entire forum that would meet your lofty "No Chatting" standards. Sorry to break it to you.

quote Originally posted by Purple86GT: Ok, I'm off to the local u-pull yard tomorrow to get the measurments. I will post them here with some pictures. Can a moderator then clean up this thread? or maybe we can create a new one with JUST THE FACTS and no chatting?

If you want something that will work from a fitment standpoint:
Make the 3800 flywheel have the same depth into the transmission (verify the bellhousing to clutch face dimension on 2.2 and make your match) and use the stock 2.2/F23 clutch... then you will have no issues from a fitment standpoint.

However, the issue of fitment is only 1/2 of the equasion, especially since most of the guys looking at this swap are doing so because they are putting 300+ hp to the wheels. So they also want a clutch that will hold the power of the combo without slipping. And the F23 swap has been installed in cars with various power levels fron a NA 3800 to turbo 3800's with 500+ crank hp and what works for one will not necessarily work for others. The ones running the NA 3800 probably want a stock feeling clutch and the higher HP guys primary concern is holding power instead of drivability... so there isn't a single clutch solution for all parties involved.

For example, the stock 2.2 clutch, while it does fit, it is only 8.5" in diameter (per autozone specs for a 99 cavalier) vs. the typical 9 1/8" that the stock fiero size clutch uses. Even the 2010 HHR/F23 clutch is only 8 7/8", which is still slightly smaller than the 9 1/8" V6 fiero one. So there is some concern of holding power of the smaller diameter clutch... but it will fit without issue (once you have confirmed the proper flywheel depth). You could also get a higher performance level clutch for the 2.2/F23 Cavalier (Spec Stage 3 #SC713) for increased holding power, but again it still might not be as "strong" as the 9 1/8" fiero version.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: You are new here, I understand. We only have one Mod and he owns the place. Also, I don't think there is a single thread on this entire forum that would meet your lofty "No Chatting" standards. Sorry to break it to you.

Don't get me wrong! I'm not trying to be a dick. I've experienced this myself, reading through the thread one post at a time and the real factual answer is hidden between pages 8 and 12 on a 40 page thread. (I'm exagerating! but you get it) or page 1 to 10 have you taking one route then on page 15 there is a post that that was all wrong and to try a different route then on page 23 we are talking about what paint color looks best...

So as much as I like chatting (and I do!) some times people are just looking for the facts.

Preaching to the choir my friend.

Back to the original question, I asked and couldnt get Dean to give up much info. Sorry I couldn't offer more on the subject. Also, do yourself a favor and get the cables from California push & pull and the cable mount adapter made specifically for the swap. That info is posted in the F23 thread IIRC. Also, my build thread (My 14k mile 88GT) has some decent pics of the mounts.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 08-30-2012).]

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: He doesn't want to share what he considers IP (Intellectual Property) of his method.

LOL! I'm sorry, I work with real trade secrets at my current job for a company that does business in the $80-$100 million a day range and have done several other projects requiring nondisclosure agreements. While I understand the reason calling it IP and while he may technically be able to protect it as a trade secret (maybe), it's kind of ridiculous.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Back to the original question, I asked and couldnt get Dean to give up much info.

I'm not asking you to share the info with the rest of us, but if I was in your position I would demand to know what EXACTLY was in MY f***ing car that I'm assuming is licensed to be driven on public roads, especially since he was grinding on major components without your consent.

[This message has been edited by FieroGT42 (edited 08-30-2012).]

quote Originally posted by FieroGT42: I'm not asking you to share the info with the rest of us, but if I was in your position I would demand to know what EXACTLY was in MY f***ing car that I'm assuming is licensed to be driven on public roads, especially since he was grinding on major components without your consent.

All in due time... I have to get it home before anything else. Get where I am hinting at?

Well bad news. The 2200 engine at the yard is gone. I didn't have time to pull another one. I'll go back next weekend and see if I can pull one to have a look.

cheers!

Sorry it took so long!! I had to go pull another F23 to get the measurments.

So from the mounting surface of the block and trans, to the fingers of the pressure plate, I calculated 63.11mm on a car with aprox 150000 KM. (not miles) so I would say the cluth might of been 1/2 to 3/4 worn?

here are the pics:

[This message has been edited by Purple86GT (edited 09-29-2012).]

From my experience with three F23 swaps now and one F40 the HTOB spacer is definitely needed and for the F23 the only clutch so far that has worked is the one shown above which to my understanding is the SPEC III plus. I have tried clutch net clutches and they interfered same as the McCleod and Bully clutches. Dan

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http://www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631

I'll be using this clutch:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/4003...id=p3984.m1497.l2649

FOYracing recomended it and they claim that I would NOT need a HTOB spacer.. I am worried about the spacer however... Trying to figure out if it will be needed or not...

Measurement from the block to the flywheel clutch surface?

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

Is this the infamous thread where I am trying to steal someones IP?

???? No one acused you of trying to steal someone's intelectual property. You brought up the fact that Dean @ Whodeanies did not want to tell you what flywheel grind / clutch setup he was using because it's his IP. To what everyone responded "whatever"... I he doesn't want to share, we will figure it out for ourselves. And it's like I said," what goes around comes around". If they feel it's worth watching others trash their HTOBs and transmissions to make a few buck, then so be it... We will remember...

quote Originally posted by Purple86GT: ???? No one acused you of trying to steal someone's intelectual property. You brought up the fact that Dean @ Whodeanies did not want to tell you what flywheel grind / clutch setup he was using because it's his IP. To what everyone responded "whatever"... I he doesn't want to share, we will figure it out for ourselves. And it's like I said," what goes around comes around". If they feel it's worth watching others trash their HTOBs and transmissions to make a few buck, then so be it... We will remember...

I know the clutch, I supplied it ya know. Fiero application Spec S3 I had from a previous project. BTW, my comment wasn't directed toward you as I am sure those who know the story understand (it was in my 14k mile 88GT thread). I just happened to read this thread again and was even more surprised @ the crazy accusations toward me about the F23 clutch "IP" turned into some crap about a 13" BBK. LOL, I know I was just as confused.

Anyhoo... if I ever have to pull the clutch, I will measure and post it for the benefit of my fellow F23'ers.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 09-30-2012).]

You do not need a spacer. Period. The distance from the surface of the HTOB fully compressed is the same distance as the Fiero transmission TB fully retracted

quote Originally posted by FriendOfYours: You do not need a spacer. Period. The distance from the surface of the HTOB fully compressed is the same distance as the Fiero transmission TB fully retracted

What about a pedal stopper? Does the Fiero clutch master push too much fluid to the F23 HTOB? DO you guys use a stopper at the shop? any need for one?

Thanks!

Do the calculations your self and you will come up 1/4 inch short when comparing the F23 and the F40 to the stock Fiero getrag. use the spacer to save your self a lot of trouble. SPEC sells great clutches that work on these applications and the spacer that is needed. Dan

Ahhh crap... what calculations do I need to do?

And can ANYONE confirm if you need a pedal stopper, why and how big?

I think it would of been less work to just change my Isuzu trans every other week...

So are the guys with f23's happy with them? Is it a noticeable upgrade from the stock 5speed? I took my 4speed to the track again this weekend, first run wouldn't go into second, second run wouldn't go into 3rd. So an upgrade is in my future.