I am currently gathering information on the feasibility of installing UAS (LATCH in the USA or ISOFIX in Europe) anchors to the passenger seat of my Fiero.

For those who might wonder what it is, UAS is the "Universal Anchorage System" (or Lower Anchorage and Tethers for CHildren in USA) present in cars since 2002 (might be earlier in the USA). It allows installing a child seat without using the car's seatbelt. It consists basically of 3 anchors (hooks), 1 located somewhere behind the seat (can be mounted on the ceiling, the rear package shelf, on the floor behind the seat or directly on the back of the seat, provided the seats are reinforced) and 2 are located in the lower portion of the seat.

From what I've been able to gather so far, the only retrofit possible on any pre-2002 cars is the top anchor which is usually either bolted or welded somewhere on the frame. Pre-2002 cars would not have the reinforced seats necessary for installing the "top" anchor directly on the back of the seat itself. As far as I know, there does not exist any retrofit kits for the 2 lower anchors. I did find some DIY instructions for putting these in antique cars, but I don't feel like gambling my child's safety either...

I've been doing some reading on Transport Canada's website and unfortunately cannot find anything related to "retrofitting" UAS anchors to older cars. I am mostly wondering if it's legal (and what are the specifics to make it legal) on a car as old as the Fiero. I wrote to them, still waiting on an answer. I also wrote to my province's Ministry of Transport and they referred me to Transport Canada (damn bureaucracy!)

Technically, in Canada, you can install a child seat on the front passenger seat of a car if you have no choice (like a 2-seater or a pickup truck for example) as long as you can disable the passenger front airbag.

I am reluctant to installing my child's seat using the Fiero passenger seatbelt because of the way the seatbelts "rollers" operate (don't, know the exact term, but I'm talking about the spring-loaded roll that allows the seatbelt to be pulled out in order to buckle it and pulled all the way back when getting out of the car). Back in these days, the rollers would allow you to loosen the seatbelt while wearing it by quickly pulling on it until it sorta locked in place, kind of like the good old roll-down curtains that did not have a rope to lower/raise them (I hope everyone understands what I'm talking about!). I am afraid that by attaching the child seat using the stock seatbelt, there would be a possibility of the seatbelt becoming loose if the child seat moves a bit forward while driving at which point it would allow the child seat to travel farther forward before locking in the event of a crash.

Now, some of you might think "Why doesn't he just NOT put his child's seats in the Fiero instead of taking the chance to jeopardize the safety of his kid!".

As I mentioned in the first paragraph, I'm simply gathering information at this point. I'm simply trying to find official information about installing a child seat on the passenger seat of the Fiero. If I end up not finding anything official (either positive of negative), I simply won't do it! The reason behind all this is that my 3 yr old is totally in love with the Fiero. He wants to sit in it every time he goes in the garage and still thinks it's a race car right out of the movie "Cars". I would love to be able to give him a ride in it and maybe even drop him at daycare in the morning with the Fiero instead of the minivan

Any information is welcome.

Thanks!

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Ben // '87 GT

It seems possible to attach something to the firewall safely. I've thought about attaching these too.
Do not use your seatbelt for a child seat. All of my directions for all my seats do not allow instalation on non locking double roller type belts.
If you do mount them on the firewall, I'd add some big washers or plate.

All car seats come with a locking plate / clip thingy for the seat belt. if you follow the directions correctly you can safely install a car seat in the Passenger seat of the fiero. I was also looking to put in Latch connectors into my fiero which i still may do. Go to a Junk yard and cut out the connection points and weld them into the Firewall or floor. you should be good at that pint.

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88 Formula CJB Arrived Finally. #689 of 1252
Time to start Working TONY!
There are Two kinds of Fiero's : Notchies and Donors!

[This message has been edited by Kento (edited 06-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Kento: All car seats come with a locking plate / clip thingy for the seat belt. if you follow the directions correctly you can safely install a car seat in the Passenger seat of the fiero. I was also looking to put in Latch connectors into my fiero which i still may do. Go to a Junk yard and cut out the connection points and weld them into the Firewall or floor. you should be good at that pint.

that locking clip doesnt work like that. Its still for 1 retractor that does not cinch at the latch.
FWIW I have two seats, of different type and manufacturer that specifically identify our belt type as not compatible. the latch points are the only feasable option to add. Regarding legality, I wouldnt expect insurance to cover it...
I hate that it means my daughter cant come for a ride for a while still.

The problem you’re going to run into is that any retrofit that you try to do won’t have been crash tested thus you won’t know what’s going to happen in a crash. What a lot of people don’t realize is that seat belts do much more than simply keep you in the car, they also stretch and allow you to decelerate over a longer period of time. When a car crashes it goes from its forward momentum speed to a near stop (if not a complete stop) much faster than the human body can (reverse G’s). To protect us we need to decelerate slower (that’s why seatbelts are one time use devices). If the LATCH anchor you install doesn’t hold, the crash force energy will build up until something breaks and then all of the energy will get released too quickly.

As to installing a car seat in a Fiero, it is doable (although not recommended for reasons I’ll talk about later) but it requires a “locking clip” and a belt shortening clip. The word you’re looking for is “retractor” which is the mechanism that the belt winds up onto. Fiero’s us an ELR system (Emergency Locking Retractor) and a pendulum style as well (it only locks when the car decelerates rapidly). In 1996 all cars in the US (not sure when in Canada) had to have switchable type retractors. There are retractors that switch from ELR to ALR (Always Locking Retractors). ALR’s are the type that when you stop the forward movement of the belt they lock. Prior to 96, the way you used an ELR seatbelt system with a car seat was to use a Locking Clip. The clip pinches the two belts (lap and shoulder) together holding the seat tight in place so that in the event of a crash the retractors could lock and hold the seat allowing the belt to stretch as well as the car seat to deform decelerating the child down slowly. However, with Fieros, having dual retractors (both of which are ELR) the only way to proper install a car seat would be to use a belt shortening clip on the lap belt and a locking clip. Doing this properly is doable but getting it right would be complicated at best. I’ve been a Child Passenger Safety Technician for 13 years now and that’s an installation I wouldn’t want to do.

So, let’s talk about why you don’t want to do it anyway. If you watch crash test footage (all over youtube) you’ll see that the further back on the car you get the less damage there is. That’s because the closer to the front of the car the more the car is absorbing the crash force. That’s why you want kids in the back seat (not because of air bags). There is 70% less crash force energy in the back seat of a car than in the front seat. Fiero’s are safe cars but for adults, not young kids. When kids are very young (8 years and younger) their bones are much weaker than adults and the shape of the hip bone doesn’t hold the lap belt very well. Putting a young child in a Fiero, even in a car seat, subjects them to crash forces that they simply can’t handle as well as adults depending on the severity of the crash.

quote Originally posted by firejo24: The problem you’re going to run into is that any retrofit that you try to do won’t have been crash tested thus you won’t know what’s going to happen in a crash. What a lot of people don’t realize is that seat belts do much more than simply keep you in the car, they also stretch and allow you to decelerate over a longer period of time. When a car crashes it goes from its forward momentum speed to a near stop (if not a complete stop) much faster than the human body can (reverse G’s). To protect us we need to decelerate slower (that’s why seatbelts are one time use devices). If the LATCH anchor you install doesn’t hold, the crash force energy will build up until something breaks and then all of the energy will get released too quickly.

Agreed. That is why I was hoping there might have been some kind of retrofit technical paper available at Transport Canada where specifics of what can be done on older cars would be clearly indicated. Obviously I know that any DIY kit wouldn't be tested and I wouldn't want to go there anyway. I was looking for reliable information but unfortunately haven't found any from official sources.

quote Originally posted by firejo24: As to installing a car seat in a Fiero, it is doable (although not recommended for reasons I’ll talk about later) but it requires a “locking clip” and a belt shortening clip. The word you’re looking for is “retractor” which is the mechanism that the belt winds up onto. Fiero’s us an ELR system (Emergency Locking Retractor) and a pendulum style as well (it only locks when the car decelerates rapidly). In 1996 all cars in the US (not sure when in Canada) had to have switchable type retractors. There are retractors that switch from ELR to ALR (Always Locking Retractors). ALR’s are the type that when you stop the forward movement of the belt they lock. Prior to 96, the way you used an ELR seatbelt system with a car seat was to use a Locking Clip. The clip pinches the two belts (lap and shoulder) together holding the seat tight in place so that in the event of a crash the retractors could lock and hold the seat allowing the belt to stretch as well as the car seat to deform decelerating the child down slowly. However, with Fieros, having dual retractors (both of which are ELR) the only way to proper install a car seat would be to use a belt shortening clip on the lap belt and a locking clip. Doing this properly is doable but getting it right would be complicated at best. I’ve been a Child Passenger Safety Technician for 13 years now and that’s an installation I wouldn’t want to do.

I read about the pre-96 installations and from the looks of it, I wouldn't want to do it either. I would pretty much always wonder if I did it right. Today's seats are much easier to install than before and even then I see plenty of parents not strapping their kids right... I can only imagine how it was back in 1995!

quote Originally posted by firejo24: So, let’s talk about why you don’t want to do it anyway. If you watch crash test footage (all over youtube) you’ll see that the further back on the car you get the less damage there is. That’s because the closer to the front of the car the more the car is absorbing the crash force. That’s why you want kids in the back seat (not because of air bags). There is 70% less crash force energy in the back seat of a car than in the front seat. Fiero’s are safe cars but for adults, not young kids. When kids are very young (8 years and younger) their bones are much weaker than adults and the shape of the hip bone doesn’t hold the lap belt very well. Putting a young child in a Fiero, even in a car seat, subjects them to crash forces that they simply can’t handle as well as adults depending on the severity of the crash.

Agreed that the back is the safest place for a kid. I was only referring to the Canadian laws about child safety in cars when I mentioned it was possible to put a kid in the front seat (when you have no choice) for as long as the air bag is disabled. Obviously, if strapping the kid to the Fiero was my only choice, I'd take the steps so he would be strapped properly, but in this case, my Fiero is merely a fun ride. I've got a minivan for daily driver...

I've watched footage of crash tests on the Transport Canada site and was pretty disturbed to see what can happen when common mistakes on strapping the kids are made. The videos also show that the middle of the back seat is safer than the sides especially in compact cars.

So all in all, I'll wait for some kind of answer from the Transport Canada folks and keep looking for official options, but it sounds like my oldest son will have to wait another 9 years before being able to ride with me :-)

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Ben // '87 GT

[This message has been edited by benoitmalenfant (edited 06-06-2012).]

If the Fiero had only one retractor on the shoulder belt is would be a pretty easy install but you’d still have the issue with the high amount of crash forces. I sometimes take my 9 year old daughter to school in my Fiero but only because there isn’t any other choice. She fit’s OK with a booster and with a booster I don’t have the issues with locking a seat in place. Fortunately it’s all low speed streets and just few blocks away. She loves it though and I wish I could let her ride further and faster. Some day. I’d be interested in what TC has to say.