quote Originally posted by Will: *they* = Smokey Yunick. Interesting idea. Was the trunk cut also?

iirc it was cut at an angle.. and 3 shorter in depth

So..... Still, no one really thinks that the wing is a good place?. Unlike the bumper, and yes it catches a ton of air, but from the heat of the radiator too. The top of the car that utilizes the downforce of the wing is full of fresh air...

No one has thoughts about it? I didn't even get one response to my post earlier....

quote Originally posted by unboundmo: So..... Still, no one really thinks that the wing is a good place?. Unlike the bumper, and yes it catches a ton of air, but from the heat of the radiator too. The top of the car that utilizes the downforce of the wing is full of fresh air... No one has thoughts about it? I didn't even get one response to my post earlier....

That was a GM prototype and interesting, but no one else has implemented that.
If nothing else, that location exposes the intercooler core to a lot of incidental handling damage (bent fins). Also, it would work better with a wrap-around or "whale tale" type spoiler.
There is a similar setup around for turbo MR2's called a TMIC or "Trunk mount intercooler". It puts the intercooler in the trunk, pulls air from above the decklid and exhausts it out the bumper.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-01-2012).]

Here's a good one, get a good size liquid to air intercooler and plug the A/C lines from the evaporator into it. I actually considered putting diverter valves in line to make it possible to by-pass my evaporator core to do just that before charging the system up, for the sake of experimenting. I understand the Ford Lightning uses refrigeration as part of its intercooling. The Syclone and Typhoon used liquid to air but I haven't found anyone that can provide info on how well it performed.

quote Originally posted by Will: That was a GM prototype and interesting, but no one else has implemented that. If nothing else, that location exposes the intercooler core to a lot of incidental handling damage (bent fins). Also, it would work better with a wrap-around or "whale tale" type spoiler. There is a similar setup around for turbo MR2's called a TMIC or "Trunk mount intercooler". It puts the intercooler in the trunk, pulls air from above the decklid and exhausts it out the bumper.

Plus it has to seal between the trunk and the turbo with a press fitting that will withstand turbo pressure. (the spoiler mounted one)

quote Originally posted by unboundmo: So..... Still, no one really thinks that the wing is a good place?. Unlike the bumper, and yes it catches a ton of air, but from the heat of the radiator too. The top of the car that utilizes the downforce of the wing is full of fresh air... No one has thoughts about it? I didn't even get one response to my post earlier....

I like it, but it would be a PITA to do right... I kind like the rear bumper idea except that the car will be a daily eventually, and I don't like the idea of my intercooler being my bumper...

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quote Originally posted by dratts: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Will: That was a GM prototype and interesting, but no one else has implemented that. If nothing else, that location exposes the intercooler core to a lot of incidental handling damage (bent fins). Also, it would work better with a wrap-around or "whale tale" type spoiler. There is a similar setup around for turbo MR2's called a TMIC or "Trunk mount intercooler". It puts the intercooler in the trunk, pulls air from above the decklid and exhausts it out the bumper.

Plus it has to seal between the trunk and the turbo with a press fitting that will withstand turbo pressure. (the spoiler mounted one)
[/QUOTE]

I wondered how that worked. Press fit? Hmmm, that has leak potential written all over it.

Here is another option for the air-to-air. Kinda pricey but seems like it would work fine (outside the car).

quote Originally posted by dratts: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Will: That was a GM prototype and interesting, but no one else has implemented that. If nothing else, that location exposes the intercooler core to a lot of incidental handling damage (bent fins). Also, it would work better with a wrap-around or "whale tale" type spoiler. There is a similar setup around for turbo MR2's called a TMIC or "Trunk mount intercooler". It puts the intercooler in the trunk, pulls air from above the decklid and exhausts it out the bumper.

Plus it has to seal between the trunk and the turbo with a press fitting that will withstand turbo pressure. (the spoiler mounted one)
[/QUOTE]

There is a pic around (maybe in one of the photos of protos threads from 20th or 25th) of the intercooler trunk lid open. The ducts are routed from the intercooler to the decklid hinges where flexible couplings connect them to fixed ducts secured in the engine compartment.

There is no breaking/making of intake air connections as the trunk lid is opened/closed. That would be a disaster... I can imagine that while I'm putting my groceries in the trunk, my kid (hypothetical) would spill Cheerios down the intake ducting...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-02-2012).]

OK, I misunderstood. A flexible coupler at the hinge point makes a lot more sense.

quote Originally posted by dratts: OK, I misunderstood. A flexible coupler at the hinge point makes a lot more sense.

There's actually a swivel coupler now that wOuld definitely withstand the pressure of the turbo. This would mount near the hinge of the trunk.. Back in 85-86 GM used a accordion style flex coupler.. Like a dryer exhaust ducking.


The trunk does not need to be sealed. The piping is through the wing stands, modified of course, then attached to the lid on the underside. There needs to be a cut-away - U shaped, 2 of them, to except the piping. I have a picture of what it looks like that I took but I need to grab it off my computer. These iPhones and iPads are so convenient now a day.

As far as the fins bending from the elements, I could totally understand.. And would be a bummer if they got damaged.

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 05-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: Here's a good one, get a good size liquid to air intercooler and plug the A/C lines from the evaporator into it. I actually considered putting diverter valves in line to make it possible to by-pass my evaporator core to do just that before charging the system up, for the sake of experimenting. I understand the Ford Lightning uses refrigeration as part of its intercooling. The Syclone and Typhoon used liquid to air but I haven't found anyone that can provide info on how well it performed.

We have a couple of guys running around town with Typhoons. One is heavily built. That guy is not running a w2a IC anymore, he has installed a front-mount a2a. I've talked to him at lengths about what the Sy/Ty guys who are serious do for IC's. He says everyone he knows of who does any serious racing is using a front-mount a2a. I asked him if there was anybody in their community still running w2a IC's and he said there were, but they were all upgraded (and were using very few, if any factory components). But he said all the w2a setups he knows of suffer from heat soak issues, especially if they are doing back-to-back runs at the track.

quote Originally posted by LAMBO: Here is another option for the air-to-air. Kinda pricey but seems like it would work fine (outside the car).

Installing a spray bar on an a2a IC setup is always an option. You can probably make your own spray bar setup from bent steel brake line with holes drilled in it (which you can do yourself) and just buy the solenoids and such that you'd need to activate it. I was thinking of doing this myself, but I would prefer to use CO2 instead of N2O. You could even set up a spray bar to use chilled water if you really wanted to do it as economically as possible and it would probably work. I'm sure it wouldn't be as good as using CO2 or N2O to cool your core, but it would still work.

-ryan

okay.. here are a couple pictures of it...

The top side of the intercooler is actually covered by a grill. just like the vent grills of our deck lids.. this will help from damaged fins..




and here is the underside piping




Looks like a solid mod to me.. except the accordion tubing. But like I said, there are swivel couplers to use in its place. The top air scoop doesn't seem to be functional either except maybe cooling the engine bay.. anyway...

In looking at it. I would route the compressed air in front of the engine by the firewall with hard aluminum pipe through a swivel coupling, then mounting to the deck lid and out the wing stand through the intercooler. Then have the cooled air route down the left side through a swivel and into the plenum. The way they have it here looks to have possible kinking of the accordion hoses as the deck lid is closed.

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 05-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Installing a spray bar on an a2a IC setup is always an option. You can probably make your own spray bar setup from bent steel brake line with holes drilled in it (which you can do yourself) and just buy the solenoids and such that you'd need to activate it. I was thinking of doing this myself, but I would prefer to use CO2 instead of N2O. You could even set up a spray bar to use chilled water if you really wanted to do it as economically as possible and it would probably work. I'm sure it wouldn't be as good as using CO2 or N2O to cool your core, but it would still work. -ryan

The syclone guys are running a front engine. An air to air works a lot better there than it does in a Fiero. The turbo kit that I used was designed for a front engine car and used air to air. I opted for an air to water instead because of the length of the tubes that would be necessary and the difficulty in routing 2" tubes from the front to the rear.

quote Originally posted by dratts: The syclone guys are running a front engine. An air to air works a lot better there than it does in a Fiero.

I know Sy/Ty's are front engine vehicles. I know it is easier to use an A2A IC in a front engine vehicle than it is in a Fiero. But the Sy/Ty's came with W2A IC's stock, probably because the factory determined there wasn't enough room for them to install an A2A IC in front of the A/C condensor in that vehicle. Most serious Sy/Ty racers I know of are not running A/C (and have thus removed their A/C condensors) and have even modified their front ends so they could use a substantial A2A IC core.

quote The turbo kit that I used was designed for a front engine car and used air to air. I opted for an air to water instead because of the length of the tubes that would be necessary and the difficulty in routing 2" tubes from the front to the rear.

I agree 100% with you that it would be difficult to run a front-mount A2A IC on a Fiero due to not only the length of charge air piping you would need to run, but also because of the space limitations under the Fiero.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-02-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I don't believe mounting an IC in the rear spoiler/wing would be a good place for it. I have come to this conclusion after observing the behavior of the water droplets both on and under my rear wing (mounted on my 87 notchie). At speeds up to 60mph, there doesn't appear to be a significant amount of air impacting the water droplets under the wing, and the droplets on top of the wing don't appear to be impacted much more at all; except at the very trailing edge of it. They do "vibrate" like some wind is hitting them, but they aren't being blown off the wing or off from under the wing. Seems like a change in vehicle motion impacts the movement of these water droplets more than the wind hitting them does. I don't have a GT/fastback to do this testing on so I can't comment on the airflow characteristics of the spoiler/wing on those cars.

these car's have a ton of aero drag, so that alone would pull air through the core, the air going over it would not matter..

On the topic of air/water intercoolers... The cores are ~$80 shipped, hose is about $1 a foot, a pump is $5 at a junkyard, or 80 if you find something else. A front mount is just some random radiator... I have never paid much more than $30 for one.

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: these car's have a ton of aero drag, so that alone would pull air through the core, the air going over it would not matter..

My spoiler doesn't have a huge hole in it so I can't tell you how much air would go thru it if it did. You could very well be correct that a significant amount of air could flow thru an intercooler placed in the spoiler concerning how much drag our cars have. If someone had a stock spoiler that was trashed we could do some testing by cutting a hole in it the size of an IC core and placing some wind sensors in that space to see how much air would actually flow thru it.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: My spoiler doesn't have a huge hole in it so I can't tell you how much air would go thru it if it did. You could very well be correct that a significant amount of air could flow thru an intercooler placed in the spoiler concerning how much drag our cars have. If someone had a stock spoiler that was trashed we could do some testing by cutting a hole in it the size of an IC core and placing some wind sensors in that space to see how much air would actually flow thru it.

Or just use a W/A intercooler.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Or just use a W/A intercooler.

Or not. You use what you want to use and I'll use what I want to use.

So far there has been no conclusive evidence provided by anyone that proves one particular type of IC system is better than another in a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I agree 100% with you that it would be difficult to run a front-mount A2A IC on a Fiero due to not only the length of charge air piping you would need to run, but also because of the space limitations under the Fiero.

I hope that I didn't sound as though I was questioning your knowledge or whether you know where the Syclone engines are. I have huge respect for you.

I think I'd like to do some serious testing on that intercooler spoiler idea. Any thoughts on the best way to do it? I have should have access to a wind tunnel (for a miniature but that would be kind of hard) or Ansys Workbench with Fluent? It seems more important to check the flow characteristics before building a prototype. Does anyone have an electronic model of the Fiero (GT preferred) Rear end I can use to begin?

You might be able to find a MPC Fiero GT model from eBay. The model that is plastic and glue together.. My opinion is that with the amount of down force it has and have the louvers facing front there's no reason why that it won't have air going through it.

I'm in the garage looking at my GT and the roof pitch angles right to the wing.. Seems perfect!

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Or not. You use what you want to use and I'll use what I want to use. So far there has been no conclusive evidence provided by anyone that proves one particular type of IC system is better than another in a Fiero.

but in EVERY OTHER platform w/a outperforms by a huge margin... Cant possibly work in a fiero as it just makes too much sense.

Serious Sy/Ty racers... back to back runs... heat soak...

I guess they only sell ice here in Florida... ???

Now if you're talking about road racing and HPDE... but why would they do that with a Jimmy?

Who is going to be the first one to do an intercooler like the Noble M12 ?

Noble obviously draw the air through the IC using the low pressure at the back and the higher pressure above the massive wing. They have a mesh in the back, but I can't see how they feed the positive pressure from the top. Anybody?

http://www.turbohoses.com/Exhaust.jpg

http://i35.photobucket.com/...NUS0039/DSC_0101.jpg

Okay here's more detail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZaNEeYIUfA

[This message has been edited by 88GTS (edited 05-03-2012).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: but in EVERY OTHER platform w/a outperforms by a huge margin... Cant possibly work in a fiero as it just makes too much sense.

Really, then I guess all those people in the GN and Sy/Ty communities who do serious racing and who all pretty much use A2A IC's are just idiots then, huh?

I never said W2A IC's couldn't work in a Fiero. Quit putting words in my mouth. I also never said my setup was absolutely superior, because I didn't have any proof to back that statement up. But all we have been hearing from you and a couple of other people on here is how superior W2A IC's are but yet NONE OF YOU HAVE EVER POSTED ANY CONCLUSIVE TEST DATA TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. It's like you just expect everyone to just take your word for it. Next thing you know, you'll be telling all of us your car runs 8's but you don't have to provide a timeslip or a video to back up those claims...

All I'm asking for is if you are going to say your setup is better than my method, post up honest and complete test data on both and that will prove it once and for all. But until you do that, all you guys are doing amounts to little more than bench racing.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-03-2012).]

quote Originally posted by E.Furgal: these car's have a ton of aero drag, so that alone would pull air through the core, the air going over it would not matter..

I've heard that the spoiler on a Fiero is completely ineffectual due to the fact that it's not a true fastback and the rear window is vertical. There might not be pressure on the top of it. Maybe you could tilt the spoiler. This is all just pure conjecture on my part.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: NONE OF YOU HAVE EVER POSTED ANY CONCLUSIVE TEST DATA TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. It's like you just expect everyone to just take your word for it.

It ain't worth it.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I've heard that the spoiler on a Fiero is completely ineffectual due to the fact that it's not a true fastback and the rear window is vertical. There might not be pressure on the top of it. Maybe you could tilt the spoiler. This is all just pure conjecture on my part.

Correct... the stock rear wing does nothing. That's why I suggested the whale tail spoiler for an intercooler mount.

I have the intercooler in hand after a minor delay. They shipped the wrong heat exchanger with the kit and overnighted the correct one to me the next day, now that's customer service (siliconeintakes).

It's important to state that all air water intercoolers are not created equal, for this to work properly steer clear of the cheap "quick and dirty" kits found all over ebay, many if not all of them use air to air cores in their liquid intercoolers which do not provide the proper thermal transfer arrangement for liquid to air intercooling. They also charge near the same price as those that do.

I mentioned the Syclone/Typhoon uses air water intercooling but it is not to be considered since GM for some strange reason uses engine coolant for it which makes no sense considering the coolant is as hot as the engine.

GM currently uses liquid intercooling in one of the Vettes, Cadillacs and Chevy Cobalt and they all have separate heat exchangers from the engine coolant I understand.
I'll start a thread on the install with results once it's finished. The heat exchanger is 26x7x3.5 which is as big as you can attempt to fit up front especially on a lowered car. A pump came with the kit also. Just trying to figure out the arrangement i'm going to use.

Install: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/123943.html#p1

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-29-2012).]

quote Originally posted by Joseph Upson: It's important to state that all air water intercoolers are not created equal, for this to work properly steer clear of the cheap "quick and dirty" kits found all over ebay, many if not all of them use air to air cores in their liquid intercoolers which do not provide the proper thermal transfer arrangement for liquid to air intercooling. They also charge near the same price as those that do.

Strange. I've never seen or heard of somebody getting an A/A core in their W/A.. I wonder if it is one of those things that happened 20 years ago and kinda sticks as a sales pitch.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Strange. I've never seen or heard of somebody getting an A/A core in their W/A.. I wonder if it is one of those things that happened 20 years ago and kinda sticks as a sales pitch.

They all start as cores before the end caps are welded on. If you look closely at the inlet/outlet of some of the liquid intercoolers, you'll note the difference in thickness between the rows of air passages vs the fins when compared to an air to air. The water passages should be thinner than the passages for air internally than what you see in an air to air intercooler internally particularly because the water does not require as much surface area per unit area of heat exchange.

Look at the thickness of the water passages for the heat exchanger above, they are about half the thickness of what the air to air intercooler passages are.

Notice also how some of the the less expensive liquid intercoolers conveniently have no pictures of what the intercooler air passage looks like. Wide air and water passages result in less efficient heat transfer and a greater pressure drop due to more resistance to air flow.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-14-2012).]

Hi everyone this is my first post.I,ve wanted to share my 85 Fiero with your group and this looks like a good place to start.First its a vortech 4.3 with the top milled off and a box welded to the top of the intale with a toyota evaporator mounted in it.As you may have aready figured out its a water to air and is the only way I would go.I,m pretty low budget so I used a ice chest up front where the spare tire went to hold the water/ice it has a rule 600 bilge pump in a plastic box in the bottom of the ice chest.I dont know if it really needs to be seperated from the ice I just thought it would be less restriction with the pump seperate from the ice.The water runs back to a moroso cooler to cool it a second time then through the intercooler in the intake and after that it runs back up front to a trans cooler mounted in front of the radiator then back in the top of the ice chest.With this setup I see low70 high60 air tenps and after about 15 miles its usually around 90 deg .I have also drove it with just water and it will do just fine cold air temps below 100 after a couple of trips will heat soak and I have seem 130s to150 air temps.I was going to post a picture but I dont have any on line but it is semple the turbo mounts above the trans and has one connection at the throttle body and just two 1/2 lines to the intercooler.I would not race it hot so heat soak is not a issue to me and at worse I can dump the hot water and refill it with tap water and make a pass with decent air temps.

quote Originally posted by twofieros: Hi everyone this is my first post.I,ve wanted to share my 85 Fiero with your group and this looks like a good place to start.First its a vortech 4.3 with the top milled off and a box welded to the top of the intale with a toyota evaporator mounted in it.As you may have aready figured out its a water to air and is the only way I would go.I,m pretty low budget so I used a ice chest up front where the spare tire went to hold the water/ice it has a rule 600 bilge pump in a plastic box in the bottom of the ice chest.I dont know if it really needs to be seperated from the ice I just thought it would be less restriction with the pump seperate from the ice.The water runs back to a moroso cooler to cool it a second time then through the intercooler in the intake and after that it runs back up front to a trans cooler mounted in front of the radiator then back in the top of the ice chest.With this setup I see low70 high60 air tenps and after about 15 miles its usually around 90 deg .I have also drove it with just water and it will do just fine cold air temps below 100 after a couple of trips will heat soak and I have seem 130s to150 air temps.I was going to post a picture but I dont have any on line but it is semple the turbo mounts above the trans and has one connection at the throttle body and just two 1/2 lines to the intercooler.I would not race it hot so heat soak is not a issue to me and at worse I can dump the hot water and refill it with tap water and make a pass with decent air temps.

Welcome to the forum and I bet if you replaced that trans cooler up front for a good and proper heat exchanger you would have consistent low temps as a daily driver without ice. I've been reading up on the subaru forum and the guys there with at least a 3 gallon system are seeing consistent inlet air temps within ~10 deg of ambient even under boost.

quote Originally posted by dratts: I've heard that the spoiler on a Fiero is completely ineffectual due to the fact that it's not a true fastback and the rear window is vertical. There might not be pressure on the top of it. Maybe you could tilt the spoiler. This is all just pure conjecture on my part.

quote Originally posted by Will: Correct... the stock rear wing does nothing. That's why I suggested the whale tail spoiler for an intercooler mount.

Road & Track November 1984:

"For those aerophiles among our readers, the following will be of more than passing interest. The original Fiero with 13-in wheels and tires has a Coefficient of Drag (Cx) of 0.377; add the 14-in wheels and tires and that figure climbs to 0.406. With the pace car nose and 14-in wheels and tires the coefficient of drag drops to 0.372 and falls still further to 0.350 with the addition of the rear wing."

anyone used Laminove cores?

http://www.batinc.net/laminova.htm

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I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

BEST option IMO...A\W inbetween Engine cradle and Fuel Tank.

anyone care to help me pic out an intercooler? I was looking at something like this,

http://www.siliconeintakes....e013b9f367e11e051bd9

but I wanted to mount it under my cradle, by the fuel tank, that looks like it wouldn't fit...

the car is a only 3500 with custom headers and a GT35 turbo

Compressor trim: .70 ar
Compressor Wheel diameter: 57.36 /81.87
Turbine wheel diameter : 57.50 /73.60
Exhaust trim: .63ar

I'm shooting for about 475 RW-HP through a F23 five speed.

------------------
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I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.