Year isn't as important as it must have the 5x115mm wheel bearing. This would ensure the larger format bearing and a larger hole for the S10 wheel bearing.
This upright has a larger hole ~3.55" ID, but the S10 wheel bearing is ~3.62" OD, so there is some slight machining/clearancing required. Also the bolt pattern to attach the wheel bearing on the pontiac 6000 upright is 4.58" circle vs 4.74" on the S10 wheel bearing, so you need to slot the holes some.
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06:11 PM
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
Around here, the old Pontiac 6000's are getting very hard to find in the wrecking yards, I've found that the uprights from a Pontiac Transport will work, I did use a set of Cad Seville / S-10 4X4 front rotors and Cad Seville calipers and with custom brakets for the brakes, you will have to change out the lower balljoints.
Around here, the old Pontiac 6000's are getting very hard to find in the wrecking yards, I've found that the uprights from a Pontiac Transport will work, I did use a set of Cad Seville / S-10 4X4 front rotors and Cad Seville calipers and with custom brakets for the brakes, you will have to change out the lower balljoints.
What changes were needed to be made to the montana upright? I'm going to swap some rear brakes from a 95 WS6 trans am for the back, and 2001 WS6 front brakes on the front. I would prefer that only the upright be modified, as I don't want to have to go to the machine shop every time I need a wheel bearing.
Thanks for all the help!
-262
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I'm not trying to highjack this thread (and to contribute, car-part.com says that the Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera uses the same knuckle as the 6000), but why not use a bearing that matches the knuckle? As in, install both the 6000/Ciera/Trans Sport knuckle and bearing (which won't need modifications to fit the knuckle and will have the 5x115 pattern)? I suppose that the Ciera bearing may have a different spline count than the Fiero bearing, but it seems like less work to swap the axle ends than to machine the knuckle and bearing.
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11:37 PM
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3136 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
I'm not trying to highjack this thread (and to contribute, car-part.com says that the Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera uses the same knuckle as the 6000), but why not use a bearing that matches the knuckle? As in, install both the 6000/Ciera/Trans Sport knuckle and bearing (which won't need modifications to fit the knuckle and will have the 5x115 pattern)? I suppose that the Ciera bearing may have a different spline count than the Fiero bearing, but it seems like less work to swap the axle ends than to machine the knuckle and bearing.
Because 115mm isn't 4.75", 115mm is approx 4.5", 4.75" is approx 120 MM.
Edit: to add, no hijack seemed apparent, I appreciate any input on the matter.
------------------ there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!
What changes were needed to be made to the montana upright? I'm going to swap some rear brakes from a 95 WS6 trans am for the back, and 2001 WS6 front brakes on the front. I would prefer that only the upright be modified, as I don't want to have to go to the machine shop every time I need a wheel bearing.
Thanks for all the help!
-262
The right year minivan brakes are as big as 11". The minivan bearings are quite large also. The swap results in a significant gain in unsprung weight. The 6000 upright swap gains ~13# of unsprung weight per side and the minivan swap will gain even more, maybe as much as 18#.
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10:40 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Personally, I've come to believe that the 4.75 pattern really isn't what people think it is. If you look for 10" wide wheels with ~50mm of offset, most of them are 4.5" (114.3 mm). That's not exactly 115, but there are "wobble" lugnuts that can take up the difference.
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10:41 AM
americasfuture2k Member
Posts: 7131 From: Edmond, Oklahoma Registered: Jan 2006
Personally, I've come to believe that the 4.75 pattern really isn't what people think it is. If you look for 10" wide wheels with ~50mm of offset, most of them are 4.5" (114.3 mm). That's not exactly 115, but there are "wobble" lugnuts that can take up the difference.
I kind of agree. When I was reading Fieroguru's thread on his '88 S10 knuckle conversion, I thought to myself 'I would love to have that conversion done but then redrill the hubs for the 5x114.3 pattern.' This way no mods would be needed to the front hub for many off-the-shelf motorsports wheels as most places make a high offset wheel option for Subarus (Which match the front of an '88), but most places only make 8.5" and wider wheels in the 5x114.3 pattern. I'll use the Enkei RPF1 as an example as it's my favorite wheel. I could get a 17x7 or 7.5 in 5x100 et48 for the front and then I could go with anything from a 17x8 to a 17x10 or 18x8 to 18x10.5 and still have some offset options for a rear with 5x114.3.
This is one of the few times that I'm bummed I don't have my Fiero anymore, as I would have loved to make this bolt pattern change and put some real fat tires on the rear.
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11:02 AM
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3136 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
Personally, I've come to believe that the 4.75 pattern really isn't what people think it is. If you look for 10" wide wheels with ~50mm of offset, most of them are 4.5" (114.3 mm). That's not exactly 115, but there are "wobble" lugnuts that can take up the difference.
for me, it's not as much about wheel choices as it is about the use of off the shelf components for my brakes. I've got a decent setup for brakes already, and I don't want to have to drill rotors or machine wheel bearings every time I need a new one, I also already have a set of wheels that I like that are 5x4.75 also.
I think I can live with the weight gain, I know unsprung weight has a greater affect on handling, but I'm not planning to road race my car, at this point, and if it comes to that, It'll give me a place to lighten the car up!
Thanks for the input thus far, I appreciate the different views on it, they've given me a few more things to think about.
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I kind of agree. When I was reading Fieroguru's thread on his '88 S10 knuckle conversion, I thought to myself 'I would love to have that conversion done but then redrill the hubs for the 5x114.3 pattern.' This way no mods would be needed to the front hub for many off-the-shelf motorsports wheels as most places make a high offset wheel option for Subarus (Which match the front of an '88), but most places only make 8.5" and wider wheels in the 5x114.3 pattern. I'll use the Enkei RPF1 as an example as it's my favorite wheel. I could get a 17x7 or 7.5 in 5x100 et48 for the front and then I could go with anything from a 17x8 to a 17x10 or 18x8 to 18x10.5 and still have some offset options for a rear with 5x114.3.
This is one of the few times that I'm bummed I don't have my Fiero anymore, as I would have loved to make this bolt pattern change and put some real fat tires on the rear.
Its ok, you can live vicariously through me!
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07:08 PM
Jan 26th, 2012
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
What changes were needed to be made to the montana upright? I'm going to swap some rear brakes from a 95 WS6 trans am for the back, and 2001 WS6 front brakes on the front. I would prefer that only the upright be modified, as I don't want to have to go to the machine shop every time I need a wheel bearing.
Thanks for all the help!
-262
There is machine work to open up the bolt holes to match the S-10 hubs and the bore of the upright needs to be opened up, the bearing is not altered. There are also a couple of lugs for the oe calipers that need to be trimmed off, and as mentioned above, change out the lower balljoints.
The brake package I put together, was built to clear 15" wheels, sounds like you already have a handle on what your doing for brakes.
Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 01-26-2012).]
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10:06 AM
Feb 3rd, 2012
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3136 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
Originally posted by Will: The right year minivan brakes are as big as 11". The minivan bearings are quite large also. The swap results in a significant gain in unsprung weight. The 6000 upright swap gains ~13# of unsprung weight per side and the minivan swap will gain even more, maybe as much as 18#.
I may have a solution to the unsprung weight issue, and a way to get a more economical adjustable strut while I'm at it.
More to come soon.
------------------ there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!
As far as I know, my new route is untested, first the weights, on the left, we have my new spindle, 4 pounds, 15 ounces. in the middle, the stock fiero spindle, 9 pounds 15.8 ounces. and on the right, the minivan spindle, 11 pounds, 13.8 ounces, all weights are the bare spindle, no bearings or bolts.
My new spindle is aluminum, and came off of a 2000ish Oldsmobile Intriuge, as seen here:
Now for the main problem so far...
you can see, the bolts don't line up at all on the factory strut, but, the oldsmobile strut may work, and as an added bonus, KYB has an adjustable strut for the olds!
The *main* problem is that the Olds has about the same track width as the Fiero, but the strut tops are much further apart. This means that the strut is much more upright in the N/L/W bodies. This means that when transplanted into a Fiero, those knuckles will give you a LOT of negative camber.
Also, the outer tie rod end is much lower on those than on Fieros. You'll have to relocate the inner pivot of the toe link via cut/weld in order to get bump steer even close to right.
It's not a trivial operation. Also, *most* of the weight gain for the A- and U- body knuckle swaps is in the rotor, caliper and bearing (as you see, the knuckle is only responsible for 2 of the 13-15 lbs of unsprung weight gain). You can use LS1 F-body calipers in addition to the aluminum knuckles... you *might* be able to keep the unsprung weight gain down to 5#...
You get those from Butler's?
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-03-2012).]
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08:23 PM
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3136 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
The *main* problem is that the Olds has about the same track width as the Fiero, but the strut tops are much further apart. This means that the strut is much more upright in the N/L/W bodies. This means that when transplanted into a Fiero, those knuckles will give you a LOT of negative camber.
Also, the outer tie rod end is much lower on those than on Fieros. You'll have to relocate the inner pivot of the toe link via cut/weld in order to get bump steer even close to right.
It's not a trivial operation.
You get those from Butler's?
nah, I got them around the corner at kikers. I don't like the old man who runs the desk at butlers, he tried to screw me over on parts a couple of times, so I don't go there anymore.
Not that I'm going to get up and do it, but would it be advantageous to move the struts out further, or did GM do it for packaging reasons? I've got a couple of other ideas still that may allow this spindle to be used, I'll just have to do a little more thinking on it.
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Also, *most* of the weight gain for the A- and U- body knuckle swaps is in the rotor, caliper and bearing (as you see, the knuckle is only responsible for 2 of the 13-15 lbs of unsprung weight gain). You can use LS1 F-body calipers in addition to the aluminum knuckles... you *might* be able to keep the unsprung weight gain down to 5#...
I was just posting data I had available to me, I'll post bearing weights too when I have them available.
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08:35 PM
Feb 4th, 2012
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I understand that's all you had available. Going to a knuckle 5# lighter than stock instead of a knuckle 2 lbs heavier saves 7 of the 13 lbs. The aluminum F-body caliper can save another pound or two vs. the iron A/U/W calipers. I think that the N/L bodies use a smaller aluminum caliper, but I could be wrong about that... it's been a while.
GM moved the struts out to package larger FWD powertrains like the 3800. The reduced kingpin angle hurts handling because it reduces camber gain.
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09:48 AM
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12479 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
You might want to modify the lower section of the strut to pickup the existing hole location in the upright. That would fix the hole distance issue, as well as the strut angle issue. It would require cutting/welding to the strut mount flange, but the mod would last the life of the strut.
[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-04-2012).]
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10:26 AM
Feb 5th, 2012
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3136 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
You might want to modify the lower section of the strut to pickup the existing hole location in the upright. That would fix the hole distance issue, as well as the strut angle issue. It would require cutting/welding to the strut mount flange, but the mod would last the life of the strut.
This is probably what I'll do, but I'm not 100% sure yet, I would like to try to use the oldsmobile strut, because KYB offers it in adjustable.
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does the minivan upright use the same outer tie rods as the Fiero?
I'm pretty sure they do. Both the A-body and U-body uprights bolt in place of the Fiero upright. However, the U-body uses a ball joint with a larger shank. This ball joint still bolts to the Fiero control arm.
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09:51 PM
ericjon262 Member
Posts: 3136 From: everywhere. Registered: Jan 2010
