Okay

here is the problem that i am facing, my 2.8 is needing a top end job this year (heads, valves and seals), we are also planning on doing a bored throttle body and porting everything we can, because my engine guy owes me some work, and i am burning oil left and right. I don't have the money right now for a full engine swap.

In the long run though I want to do a engine swap within the next 3-5 years. I right now can get my hands on a 3.4 short block or a 3800 short block easily. Which one is going to be the most cost effective to swap out when ready?

Talking to my engine guy we can stroke, bore, cam, (the works) and build each of them up without and issue to be very strong engines, knowing that i will get more HP out of the 3800 in the long run, and even more if you s/c it.

However the amount of work and time that it takes to do a 3800 over a 3.4 is it worth it? and how much more challenging and time consuming is it to do the s/c 3800 over the normal 3800, and is it worth it or could it be added later? Will i actually see that extra HP on the ground? and with the amount of work i am putting in to the 2.8 right now would any of that be able to transfer to the 3.4 or 3800 saving money there?

Is there also a computer upgrade that you can do to make any of the swaps easier with a 5sp in it?

If nothing really transfers over i might not put as much into the top end build this time around..(ie street solutions dtb intake and porting)

My other option is to do just a rebuild (no porting or anything) of the top end this time and go the V8(ie ls1 ls6 or lt1) route, but i keep hearing about people putting all this money into building and buying these V8's to make ***HP but not being able to put that to the ground.

I am not looking to have the fastest Fiero out there but to be able to keep up with some of my Muscle Car (HOT ROD POWER TOUR) guys i hang with, looking for like a 12.5 1/4 mile or so.

Info about my car
88 GT
2.8L
5sp
Lowering Kit
17 inch rims
Koni shocks and bushings
V8 Archi Hood
Fiero Fiberglass GT1 side scoops
Ported exhaust manifold
Magnaflow Cat

Any input would be great, car is going for top end work in about 3-4 weeks and would like to be able to tell my engine guy what the plans are for the future, since he is the one with the engines. And we would be slowly building the swap engine little every year to budget money better.

Thanks in advance.

[This message has been edited by ltlgt88 (edited 12-18-2011).]

I also know that parts are more readily available and possibly cheaper for the 3800 than the 3.4...lets put this into account to in your suggestions.

[This message has been edited by ltlgt88 (edited 12-18-2011).]

3800 Turbo. Prepare to be trolled.

the easyest swap with as little wiring as possible...3.4 pr without a doubt probably the cheapest as well.

for a little more money and time you could go 3800 sc

far be it from me to disagree with mattwa the 3800 turbo is gonna be the fastest but also the most expensive adn probably more work than you want to do.

i say go 3.4 pr and enjoy a little more power for the same amount as a 2.8 rebuild.

3.4 pr?

[This message has been edited by ltlgt88 (edited 12-18-2011).]

theres a push rod from the 94-95 camero/firebird and the 3.4 dohc (dual overhead cam) from the lumina and what not. they are both awesome the dohc has more power but you need a harness and computer for it like any other swap, the 3.4 PR is pretty much a direct drop in. i think you just need to switch some of the stuff over like the waterpump and redrill starter holes.

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 12-18-2011).]

You won't get 12.5 in the quarter without a turbo on the 3.4L pushrod engine. I'd ask your buddy to get you a 3.4L short block, drill the starter, and swap over the Fiero parts. Then save your money for a strong 3800 and add a turbo. My .02. (I have a 3.4L turbo motor and I'm going 3800 turbo next round)

EDIT: 1/4 mile times https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/070670.html

The 4.9 caddy V8 bolts up to the Fiero trans and has gone 12.51 with a turbo. The other V8's need an adapter and cost a bit more than the V6 swaps.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 12-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by ltlgt88: 3.4 pr?

Yeah, like Niterrorz point out, you need to clarify WHICH "3.4L" your talking about, as there are two different ones when you refer to them and Fieros.

The one that is easiest to swap into a Fiero would be the 3.4L push rod engine from Camaros/Firebirds. This is the L32 code engine. It is the absolute easiest swap you can perform. You can make it near indistinguishable from a normal L44 2.8L, in that the L32 3.4L can accept all of the Fiero beauty components like the intake and valve covers, so to the untrained eye it looks completely stock, except you'll have a bit more power. The most labor intensive job you will have to perform will likely be the starter position relocation that has to be performed (Rodney Dickman makes a jig for this job). No wiring or anything.

The DOHC version, or the "3400" (distinguishable because it literally reads "3400" on the intake), is the LQ1 code engine. While yes it will have slightly more power and potential than the L32 3.4L, you will have to do like all the other swaps and perform wiring work. However, you can likely find a 3400 with far less mileage, since it was used in lots of more recent late model vehicles.

And yes like Hudini point out you're not going to get 12.5 numbers without some sort of significant power adder with either swap.

[This message has been edited by Fiero84Freak (edited 12-18-2011).]

Iron head 3.4 swap is better bang for the buck than any work to the 2.8.

Keep the Camaro intake, use the DIS ignition and Camaro computer.

The 2.8 intake manifold just doesn't breathe well enough for a larger engine. It doesn't breathe well enough for a 2.8 for that matter.

If you end up with a 3800 series II/III, you will start out way ahead if you get one with low miles (<200,000mi) and don't touch the bottom end.

If you want 12.5 1/4 mile times then a mild 3800sc build will be the easiest, best fual mileage. and most reliable.
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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.54@132.7

[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 12-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero84Freak: The DOHC version, or the "3400" (distinguishable because it literally reads "3400" on the intake), is the LQ1 code engine. While yes it will have slightly more power and potential than the L32 3.4L, you will have to do like all the other swaps and perform wiring work. However, you can likely find a 3400 with far less mileage, since it was used in lots of more recent late model vehicles.

The DOHC is not a 3400. While the OBDII versions of the DOHC do say "DOHC 3400" on the injector cover, the 3400 SFI is an aluminum head pushrod engine. The DOHC engine is MUCH heavier than the 2.8

The 3500 pushrod engine is lighter than the 2.8, yet makes the same power (stock) as the DOHC. It's the best of both worlds from that regard, but the accessory drive and wiring require extensive work to adapt to the Fiero.

The 3800 swap is a bit more difficult than the 3500 swap, but MUCH more documented. Of the options discussed, it's the only one that will get you to 12.5's easily.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-18-2011).]

It might be a little less confusing to say it this way

The LQ1 aka TDC (Twin Dual Cam) aka DOHC or 3400 DOHC while 3400 CCs is not what most people on this forum call the 3400.

The LA1 is what most people on this forum refer to as the 3400.

Both engines have a 3.4l (3400 cc) displacement

So does the L32. The L32 is what most on here refer to as the pushrod or iron head 3.4

All the above engines are 60 deg V6 designs

More information to confuse you is loacted at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...s_60%C2%B0_V6_engine

quote Originally posted by Will: The DOHC is not a 3400. While the OBDII versions of the DOHC do say "DOHC 3400" on the injector cover, the 3400 SFI is an aluminum head pushrod engine. The DOHC engine is MUCH heavier than the 2.8 The 3500 pushrod engine is lighter than the 2.8, yet makes the same power (stock) as the DOHC. It's the best of both worlds from that regard, but the accessory drive and wiring require extensive work to adapt to the Fiero. The 3800 swap is a bit more difficult than the 3500 swap, but MUCH more documented. Of the options discussed, it's the only one that will get you to 12.5's easily.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-18-2011).]

It is a 3.4 push rod that is available...

So you many of you are telling me just to swap the bottom end of my 2.8 with the bottom of with the bottom of a 3.4?

Since the engine is out and would it be worth bore, stroke, cam, the works to the bottom end of the 3.4 too?

If you want to do all that then just buy a low mileage used 3800 and drop it in. You will be money and power ahead.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 12-18-2011).]

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: If you want to do all that then just buy a low mileage used 3800 and drop it in. You will be money and power ahead.

as mentioned before there is a lot more work to put a 3800 in than i have money for, PCM, Harness, etc... the 3.4 sounds like i can use the same pcm and harness, and is just a drop in, and then in the next couple years i could build a 3800 with all the fixings and goodies to make it a good install that won't have to be taken out later to have the goodies put in it.

[This message has been edited by ltlgt88 (edited 12-18-2011).]

PLAN ON 3 MONTH TO A YEAR FOR THE 3.8 SWAP
THE 3.8 WITH OUT SUPECHARGER OR TURBO IS ONE OF THE BEST ENGINES G.M.. BUILT.
LOTSA POWER IN THE 3.8 HEAD PORTING
THE ONLY REASON TO GO 3.8 SUPERCHARGED IS TO BEAT YOUR BUDDIES
THERE ARE BOUND TO BE MANY,MANY BUICK 3.8 WITH SWAP ACCESORIES AVAILABLE AT REASONABLE PRICE,,A LOT OF THESE SWAPS WOULD NEVER BE COMPLETED
you never know what awaits you in a used yard engine,you should pull the heads ,then if needed do a budget engine rebuild kit rebuild,hand lap valves,,there is a 50/50 chance a car that was rear ended has a decent motor,,most camaro,s have been run hard by young owners

RESEARCH DARTH FIERO FOR INFORMATION ON ECM
IM HAPPY WITH THE 2.8,SITTING IN TRAFFIC

[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 12-18-2011).]

I don't have money right now for a full swap with all the extra cost for the labor and lots of small things that go with a swap like a/c recharge, extra gaskets,etc. The guy doing the work is a friend and we have swapped some items for some of this work so the price is reduced but I still don't have the money to do a full blown swap, but this is a necessity to get the car running again. When he opens the top end and if thereare more issues than just that I will probably scramble and do a non built up 3.4 swap.

Just trying to figuring which way to go in the end. Honesty how much HP can you get out of a full built up 3.4 with all the top of the line fixings including bore and stroke? And how much is the swap? And how much for the engine build?

And how much can you get out of a built n/a 3800 with all the goodies including bore and strokes? And what s the coat of the swap? And how much for the engine build? And can you ad the S/c later for more power?

When I am talking swap coat I am talking the actual swap (mounts electrical fittings, etc.) And not the cost of the motor it self and its build.

That I guess is the info I am looking for.

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LETS GO DRIVING!!!


Hot Rod Power Tour 2009,10 - Muscle Car
Hot Rod Power Tour 2011, Fiero
Working on Hot Rod Power Tour 2012.

I suggest you put a good stock 3.4pr and that's it. Don't waste money in machine work, cam, intakes etc. because it will give you very little. It is very easy to spend a lot more than you think when yo go there. Talking from experience here. Have done them all. Better save that money for a 3800sc later on or even better a good V8.

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Red: TPI V8 + 6-Speed White: 3800SC auto
304rwHP/366rwTQ

quote Since the engine is out and would it be worth bore, stroke, cam, the works to the bottom end of the 3.4 too?

So boring, stroking and replacing the cam would mean you would have to pay for the machine work to the block, replace the bearings in the block, replace the rings and pistons and crank and connecting rods. You are also talking about replacing the cam. At that point it would be foolish not to also have the heads reworked.

If you do the 3.4 you should also have your ECM re-tuned for the 20% additional displacement if you want it to run right. You COULD do that with the stock ECM but most would recommend you do it to a 7730 ECM. That also means some rewiring of the harness to make it work.

What you proposed would not be 'inexpensive'.

If your wanting lots of power, reliability and your thinking about diving into the bottom end of a motor... Stay away from the 3.4 pr. It's just not worth your time when the 3800 can do it cheaper.

You would be trying to get a 3.4 to 200 HP, which is stressing it. The 3800 STARTS there, with total reliabilty.

Most bang for the buck would be whatever engine you can find at the cheapest price.
The 3.4L TDC's usually can be had for a low price. They bolt in but some rewiring is needed. Not a real popular choice but provides 205 HP stock and a high revving powerplant that gives plenty of top end power.
The 3.4L P/R engines are also inexpensive and almost bolt right in with no rewiring required.
Both engines though are getting hard to find with low miles.
The 4.9L's are still around , inexpensive, relatively easy to swap ( but rewiring required) and offer 275 ft lbs of torque 200 HP and close to 30 hwy MPG.
This Caddillac swap probably gives the most for the least amount of money.
The 3800SC's in good shape are gettting scarce and when you do find a low mileage engine they often sell for $2,000 or more.
The SBC V8s. The skys' the limit on power but they tend to become expensive swaps as an adapter kit is needed for installation..

Decide how much you have to spend and then go from there.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Flotech Afterburner Exhaust, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Just a heads up. I know Fierosound did a 3.4 and super charged it. He has said many times, next time he will just do a 3800 SC.

3.4L can be built up normally aspirated to get just over 200hp without any problem. The cost to do it is about $2000. (Just the Intake, headers, and cam are half of that cost) This will get you into the low 14/ high 13 second range in terms of 1/4 mile times. Adding a turbo will get you into the low 13's.

The 3800's are a strong motor and depending on how you go will get you into the 12 second range easily. There are many here who have done awesome things to 3800's both supercharged and turbo's.

SBC V-8's are also strong engines and depending on which one you get and what you do to it will determine how fast it is. With an off-the-shelf ZZ4 I am running low 12's without any mods to the engine. Of course a ZZ4 is $4000 just for the new engine. But the point is SBC's can be built inexpensively since it has a huge aftermarket. I have had no problems with mine and it's had the V-8 in it for 6+ years now.

As for cost, It all depends on how much work you do yourself. Typically for the average person it is about $4000 for either swap (if you already have the motor). Some folks with experience can do it for much less. Those with no experience are looking at $8000-$10000 for a swap.

Since you are wanting power to run in the 12 second range, I would see about saving up for the 3800 or V-8 swap. A 3.4L will be a waste of money since you want more power than it could deliver on a typical performance build. You would be better off just doing the top end work on the 2.8L and doing a larger swap later. If you are unsure which swap to do, I suggest taking a ride in a 3800, 3800SC, or SBC V-8 Fiero to see which way you want to go. Each engine gives the Fiero a unique feel and it is a personal choice at how you want the car to feel/act. Once you pick a swap, Getting help to do it and save money can be easy to do with the many experienced folks on here.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

Just typed alot of info and lost it...CRAP!

To sum up, Just find a good used 3800sc. In the longrun it will be cheaper, last longer, better gas milage and more fun to drive.

Steve

[This message has been edited by JumpStart (edited 12-19-2011).]

Try the idea of a naturally aspirated 3800. 205 HP, and a dime a dozen, relatively speaking. Smooth, fast, reliable as a stone bridge. It also fits the engine compartment better than any of the other swaps as far as I can tell, even better than the old 2.8.

quote Originally posted by mattwa: 3800 Turbo. Prepare to be trolled.

He's asleep at he wheel? LOL

So just got off phone with my engine guy, we are going to do a mild top end / head job to get me through the next couple of years tell i can get the money to do any type of FULL SWAP.

if for some reason when he pulls the heads off he sees major scaring in the cylinders or rings or any thing major on the lower end from there then we are going to take it out for the 3.4pr that he has sitting there, using many of the parts from the 2.8 top end. This is the easiest and least expensive swap to do at the moment.

I will probably not go with the 3.4pr if i don't have to do it now. I have been looking online and stuff and can find some 3800 engines for less than 1000 with about 80000 on them. I am also still considering doing a V8 swap too, don't know which one, was thinking of the zz383 or an 5.7 of some sort (ls1/ls6) or possibly an LT1? When i do decide to do this project in a couple years i am going to tear the whole motor down to the Block only and rebuild it from there, honing or boring, so mileage on the old doesn't always matter or weather it was built for a s/c or not.

I would love to be able to take a v8 or 3800 s/c out of a 20 mile cruise or something to figure out what i like the best, but also it depends a lot on how the person sets the engine up with the internals and bolt ons. (anyone has one in the Round Lake, IL area let me know)

Also what MANUAL trans do you suggest for any of these swaps? Right now i have the 5speed that can in the 88's but i will need to replace it or rebuild it because the syncros from 3 to 4th when cold are not working the best.

So i still want any input that you can give on this topic.

Thanks everyone for all the input

quote Originally posted by ltlgt88: Also what MANUAL trans do you suggest for any of these swaps? Right now i have the 5speed that can in the 88's but i will need to replace it or rebuild it because the syncros from 3 to 4th when cold are not working the best. So i still want any input that you can give on this topic. Thanks everyone for all the input

As for trans, The 5-speed Getrag would be the easiest to do. The 6-spd from a G6 would be fun but add lots of cost to the swap. The 4-spd is good for having fun or on a track.

No matter what trans you use, Make sure it has been checked out before you do the swap. Any part that is worn or questionable will most likely fail under the higher horsepower engine.
The best thing to do is get yourself a used 5-speed like you have and have it gone thru by a good trans shop. That way it is fresh for the swap. Kind of makes it easier as well since when you do the swap, you can swap the engine/trans together at one time.