Hey Guys, I was hoping you could share your experience and share your top 5 best upgrades for the stock 3800SC series 2. Preferably, the best upgrades for the money spent. Thanks guys.
If it has been posted, posting the link would be fine. I want the most inexpensive, but effective upgrades possible. Much different than Top 5 upgrades. A great example is the s-10 booster for the brakes. It is cheap,, but works wonders. I am looking for the same, but for the 3800sc ser2.
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03:18 AM
2002z28ssconv Member
Posts: 1436 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Jun 2005
In that case... pulley and tuning. The exhaust is so short in the Fiero that most are almost nonexistent.
But if you drop down to too small of a pulley, the increased incoming air temperature will make ping more likely. So then you have to cool the incoming air... intercooler. And then to take advantage of the additional PSI you'll want a better cam shaft.
And by now you're way past the cheap upgrade steps you were looking for.
Simple answer put on a smaller pulley. How small depends on the engine's tuning and how well you can cool the incoming air. I'll let the other 3800SCII guys recommend how small you can go. I think it's either 3.4 or 3.6. After that you'll need the intercooler. And if you tune the car in the freezing cold winter air, it's already "cooled" so you might need to tune it again in the hotter months if you are squeezing every drop of power from the engine and are right on the edge of gettin knock and ping.
*Edit - I searched for [pulley] in [Technical Discussion & Questions] in [subject/Username] * Results number 2 & 6 are some good reading for answering your question. http://www.fierosearch.com/...lley&Action=DoSearch
[This message has been edited by 2002z28ssconv (edited 12-04-2011).]
When you do any modification there is something else called supporting mods. In other words when you change one thing it effects another things. A smaller pulley can up boost 1-4 psi but if you go that route, a 180* stat, cooler plugs, 3" free flow exhaust, some tuning and an intercooler is required on anything 3.4" or smaller. If you want modifications that can stand alone , the N* 75mm TB, 3" exhaust, headers, an XP cam or high lift rockers, and a 3.5" pulley. The "best bang for the buck" in an upgrade a hard question to answer but it might be the 3.5" supercharger pulley. You can normally just install them stand alone.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
FIRST mod I would do to ANY 3800 SC build is make sure I'm using good exhaust. If you only plan on making about 300hp and under, you really don't need anything other than stock manifolds. It does help to port the front cast manifold but I haven't seen anyone produce significant gains by messing with the rear manifold at these power levels. Make sure you are running 3.0" mandrel bent exhaust pipe from the rear manifold to the muffler. Make sure you are using a low restriction, performance muffler as well. If it is dual outlet, then the outlets can be smaller than the inlet. (3" inlet and dual 2.25" outlets would be OK). Welding and porting the rear manifold is an option if you want to make more power; headers are also an option as well but beware most aftermarket headers made for the 3800 don't work in a Fiero without modification. And whatever header setup you use should have a 3.0" diameter dump at the point where both exhaust banks merge into one. Having both exhaust header banks dump into a 2.5" diameter pipe defeats the purpose of having headers (ie: for a gain in performance), in my opinion. These engines really need 3.0" (single) exhaust if you want them to perform well.
SECOND mod I would do is make sure you are using a good, free flowing induction system that has access to air OUTSIDE of the engine compartment. Just slapping an open element K&N filter right onto your throttle body inside the engine compartment isn't going to do you a whole lot of good when it is sucking in hot air right off the exhaust crossover pipe. I use 99-up 4.3L fullsize GM truck induction tubes (they are made of black plastic and measure 3.5" in diameter) and cut/modify them to work in the Fiero. I mount an open-element K&N air filter in the left side rear fender well just ahead of the left rear tire. It can get colder air here than it can from the engine compartment and gaining access to the filter is as easy as removing the inner wheel liner on that side. No matter what you use, you want to try to use something that is 3.5" or 4.0" in diameter, is non-metallic (so it doesn't heat soak), and has access to outside-of-engine-compartment air.
THIRD mod I would do is have the Series 2 blower housing CNC ported by someone who knows how to do it right. Dave over at tripleedgeperformance.com has ported a couple for me and has done an excellent job every time. He ports the outlet and also ports the inlet and makes an adapter plate so we can run a 96-99 Northstar throttle body. Of course the PCM will need to be tuned to work with the new TB/MAF combo and the ignition timing tables will also need to be tweaked to take full advantage of this porting, but it does make a difference.
FOURTH mod I would do is higher ratio roller rocker arms, either of the 1.8 ratio or 1.84 ratio variety. If you are planning on going with an aftermarket cam, consult the specs of the cam to make sure you don't use too high of ratio of roller rocker arms.
FIFTH mod I would do is install a smaller SC pulley, properly sized for all the mods you plan on doing before or after this step. If you do all of the above and you are able to run 93 octane premium fuel at all times, you should be ok running a 3.4" SC pulley. You can, of course, install less mods and install a smaller than stock SC pulley to gain performance. Just be aware there are limitations as to how much boost you can make with the mods you are running and for the fuel octane you are using - and trying to use too small of SC pulley / run too much boost for your mods or fuel can result in runaway detonation / KR.
SIXTH mod I would do is port the stock heads. Porting the heads correctly will increase performance a lot without hurting fuel economy or idle quality. Don't forget to have a multi-angle valve and seat grinding job done after you do the port work.
You can do all of the above mods and still have an engine that idles stock-smooth and gets great fuel economy while producing a very good amount of power. If you want even more power than this, then I would skip the higher ratio rocker arms and get an aftermarket cam instead (most aftermarket cams won't work with higher ratio rocker arms; but it depends on the cam). Keep in mind any cam that has higher lift and duration than the stock one will impact fuel economy, idle quality, and durability of the valvetrain in your engine. You may also be required to upgrade valve springs and the timing chain, depending on what cam you choose as well.
Installing an intercooler is the absolute last mod I would do to an M90 blower equipped 3800 engine. ALL the intercooler designs I've seen for these engines aren't particularly efficient and they do add a significant restriction as well. That's not to say they don't work because they do. I just don't think they are an upgrade I would consider installing until I installed everything listed above.
-ryan
------------------ OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-05-2011).]
1. DHP Tuner or HP 2. Flowing exhaust 3. Good intake 4. Smaller pulley 5. Supporting MODs for smaller pulley
To me #2/3 are something that really should not be called a MOD as it should be done during the swap. #4/5 are somewhat in the same boat being if you do #2/3 the proper way then you can run a 3.4 pulley with just the #2/3 MODs. For a list of what I would consider MODs would be:
1. Tuner 2. Cam w/ springs 3. Gen V 4. Full size IC 5. N* TB
Darth and MB, Thanks! Those are the kind of lists I was looking for. Just basic list with a summary of each. I am assuming that the stock exhaust manis fit fine in the fiero? She doesn't need over 300hp. She gets in enough trouble with 150
Darth and MB, Thanks! Those are the kind of lists I was looking for. Just basic list with a summary of each. I am assuming that the stock exhaust manis fit fine in the fiero? She doesn't need over 300hp. She gets in enough trouble with 150
The stock manifolds work fine...If you have the time and tools then u can clean then up alot. Not going to five u any big gains but will improve them.
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02:31 PM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15146 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Installing an intercooler is the absolute last mod I would do to an M90 blower equipped 3800 engine. ALL the intercooler designs I've seen for these engines aren't particularly efficient and they do add a significant restriction as well. That's not to say they don't work because they do. I just don't think they are an upgrade I would consider installing until I installed everything listed above. -ryan
Must repectfully disagree here just a bit. The IC opening is significantly larger than the exit port of the supercharger. Although it is a radiator type element it shouldn't be very restrictive. With a 3.4" pulley (and supporting mods) no matter how we tweaked the tuning, I could not get the last couple of degress of KR to go away. Adding the SSIC and using a true CAI system everything runs so much better. This could be a concern only on the series III engines because the genV superchargers put out more boost. There were a couple of installs on the series II 3800SC engines where the 3.4" pulley produced no KR's at all on a basically stock engine w good exhaust systems and stock tuning but this is not always the case . We lean towards recommending using an intercooler w a 3.4" pulley or smaller. It will allow the engine to make maxium power and control KR.s.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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03:00 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Must repectfully disagree here just a bit. The IC opening is significantly larger than the exit port of the supercharger. Although it is a radiator type element it shouldn't be very restrictive. With a 3.4" pulley (and supporting mods) no matter how we tweaked the tuning, I could not get the last couple of degress of KR to go away. Adding the SSIC and using a true CAI system everything runs so much better. This could be a concern only on the series III engines because the genV superchargers put out more boost. There were a couple of installs on the series II 3800SC engines where the 3.4" pulley produced no KR's at all on a basically stock engine w good exhaust systems and stock tuning but this is not always the case . We lean towards recommending using an intercooler w a 3.4" pulley or smaller. It will allow the engine to make maxium power and control KR.s.
While the IC core opening is larger than the exit port of the supercharger, there are a few things to consider.
1) The existence of the "radiator core" in the IC is an obstruction. It does not flow as good as an open hole (even a smaller one) would. 2) The exit hole in the bottom of the blower housing is where the air is coming from. Even though the IC core area is significantly larger, how much of it is seeing the bulk of the flow? The air exiting the bottom of the blower housing would need to make an immediate 90 deg turn to flow to these extra areas of the IC core and then would need to make another immediate 90 deg turn to go thru the core. Making these turns slows down the flow. How much room is in there to do that between the bottom of the blower housing and the IC core? 1/2"? Less? Air flowing under pressure acts as a fluid just like water, and thus it is resistant to change direction. Therefore, the bulk of the air exiting the bottom of the blower is going to be forced to go thru about 1/2 of the available IC core; which is going to make this type of IC less effective and also restrictive (compared to something more conventional like what you would use with a turbocharger).
I'm not saying these IC's are useless. I have seen dyno tests that suggest they do lower KR and allow you to run more boost and ignition timing and ultimately make more power. But the question is where on the mod list does this kind of an investment become worth the money? I've seen a lot of dyno tests that suggest there can be LITTLE to NO gains to be had by adding one of these intercoolers on engines that have very little other mods done to them. Remember: a new, complete IC kit costs $600 for a "short stack" and over $1000 for a more effective, thicker one. That's why I put it on the bottom of my mod list. It is the LAST thing I would do/use for an upgrade in an M90 build. I simply think there are better mods to spend your money on before you get to the point of needing an IC.
Of course, in a perfect world, I would ditch the M90 SC in favor of a turbo long before I got to the point of needing a lot of these mods. When you can slap a turbo onto an otherwise stock 3800 (that only has ported heads and rockers) and run low 11's in the 1/4 with an auto trans, it seems like a no-brainer to just do the turbo and forget messing with the M90 setup.
But the OP asked the question about what mods would you do to an M90 equipped 3800.
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-06-2011).]
Forgive my ignorance, but how much would it be to just throw a turbo on the 3800 with no other mods? Would a 3.4 with a turbo be an even better/cheaper alternative to a 3800?
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04:20 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5921 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
Forgive my ignorance, but how much would it be to just throw a turbo on the 3800 with no other mods? Would a 3.4 with a turbo be an even better/cheaper alternative to a 3800?
Depends on your level of fabrication skills. If you can weld and do metal work yourself, then you can do a turbo setup on pretty much any engine for minimal cost (depending on how much you can get a turbo and the materials to install it and make it work for). But if you don't have such skills, then you are either going to need to buy an expensive kit or pay someone to do the custom fabrication work.
A 3800 (especially with SC internals) will reliably handle more boost than a stock 3.4 iron-head V6 will. A 3800 also makes more power to begin with than a 3.4 does. So I wouldn't say a 3.4 Turbo is a "better" alternative to a 3800 Turbo. A 3800 Turbo is going to outperform a 3.4 iron-head pushrod Turbo setup, mod for mod; hands-down. However, it may be cheaper to use the 3.4 because a 3800 does require custom mounts and wiring to use in a Fiero (whereas the 3.4 can use stock Fiero parts).
Just depends on what you want out of the finished product and how much you want to spend.
If you click on "turbo" in my sig there is a build thread of going SC to turbo. It cost be about $900 in parts. Although I have surpassed that now if you count the parts I have broken from the power increase. I was at the point where I wanted to make more power and the next step was a cam and intercooler. It was going to cost well over $1,000. Scott (DH) kept bugging me to go turbo instead of spending the money on more supercharged mods. I finally gave in and bolted a turbo on. I am so glad that I listened.
A maxed out M90 power level will end up being cheaper if you do go turbo from the start, If you can do the fab yourself like Ryan said.
If you click on "turbo" in my sig there is a build thread of going SC to turbo. It cost be about $900 in parts. Although I have surpassed that now if you count the parts I have broken from the power increase. I was at the point where I wanted to make more power and the next step was a cam and intercooler. It was going to cost well over $1,000. Scott (DH) kept bugging me to go turbo instead of spending the money on more supercharged mods. I finally gave in and bolted a turbo on. I am so GLADE that I listened.
A maxed out M90 power level will end up being cheaper if you do go turbo from the start, If you can do the fab yourself like Ryan said.
On a scale of 1-10..How GLADE was you? ...........haha
