So I wanted to toss a pic of my car in for the calendar contest, but I've been told I don't stand a chance with my door sag, so... Help me sort out the right way to fix my particular sag before I reshoot this weekend. What do you guys think?
I had to blunder through this myself and "discover" how this works and to be frank, it's a PITA! I don't know any other way to do it for now, but the following is what I discerned about how the Fiero doors "adjust".
As I mentioned before, there are several axis that can be adjusted on the Fiero doors and both sides are the same. After I stopped and thought about it, I realized that there are 7 basic axis of adjustment to each door. It's only a matter of which hinges you loosen and what end of the hinge you loosen to make the required adjustments. So, to avoid being any more pedantic about this, lets just get right to the different basic movement axis of the doors.
It's obvious that the door hinges can be moved at either the *door* side, by reaching inside the door structure and loosening the bolts inside. or the hinges can be moved by loosening the bolts at the cowl, (body structure), side. One of the bolts on the lower hinge must be loosened from inside the car.
The 7 basic axis of Adjustment and what portion of the hinge must be loosened:
By loosening both the upper and lower hinges at the door side, the door can be "rotated" about an imaginary axis longitudinal to the car chassis By loosening ONLY the bottom hinge on the door side and very slightly loosening the top hinge on the dor side, the door can be pivoted relative to the top hinge to move the bottom of the door in or out. The inverse happens if you completely loosen the top hinge at the door side and slightly loosen the bottom hinge to pivot the top of the door in or out relative to the bottom hinge point
By loosening both the upper and lower hinges at the door side, the door may be moved horizontally inboard or outboard relative to the chassis structure:
By loosening either the top or the bottom hinge, or *both* hinges at the cowl side, the rear end of the door can be moved up or down in an arc relative to the hinges. (This adjustment cures a lot of the "droopy door" conditions at the door handle and the latch.)
By loosening both the upper and lower hinges at the door side, the entire door may be adjusted directly up and down relative to the chassis:
By loosening both the upper and lower hinges at the cowl side, the entire door may be adjusted fore and aft realtive to the chassis: (Note, tthis is the same for adjusting the angle of the door to cure the "droopy" condition)
NOTE: If hinge pins are worn, broken or holes in the hinges themselves are worn out of spec they should be repaired first before adjusting the doors
I have found it VERY helpful to get wooden shims, (wedges), like the type that are used to shim and align household interior door frames and use them to evenly shim the Fiero doors at the bottom between the sill and the door structure and work by trial and error, opening and closing the door until you get the door gap as even as possible all around the door and the door latches easily, swings open and closed without catching on anything and operates smoothly.
I also suggest working with the side glass installed in the door and in the *up* position. To keep the glass from hanging up on the rubber seal and making moving the door around difficult, simply lube the rubber with a light coating of vegetable oil that you can wash off the rubber and glass later. You want to continually check the postion of the glass against it's rubber seal and make certain that it seats into the proper location all around. Once you think you have it correct, be certain to cycle the window up and down a couple of times to be certain that the glass re-seats into the rubber properly each time. If it is necessary to make *extreme* adjustments to the door, you may need to lower the window glass, adjust the door and then adjust the window tracks to align the glass as required. In order to easily reach the hinges on the cowl side, you will need to jack up the car and remove the front wheel and fender liner on each side. To keep from inducing any amount of flex or twist in the chasis so that you get the doors aligned best, I strongly suggest that you place jackstands under the front crossmember and keep the car evenly supported while the front wheels are off. If you find that the angle of the car on the jackstands makes it difficult for you to work with the doors, then raise the rear of the car and use a 2nd set of jackstands to level the chassis.
(I told you this was a PITA )
Actually, none of this is terribly difficult work, (except reaching inside those doors to get at the hinge bolts if you have big hands), It's really just tedious and requires a bit of trial and error..check and recheck, until you get the best fit. It's also worth mentioning again that the Fiero is a 1980s GM car and you will NEVER get the door and panel fit quality of more modern cars, plus the flexible nature of the Fiero panels makes it even more difficult, that said though, it is possible to get the doors aligned evenly and nicely with some effort.
I know some of this is probably as clear as mud and I didn't explain it well, but I hope it helps, and as always I'm happy to explain further and help any way I can...
I did not want to Hijack that thread....
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10:52 AM
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
Are the bushings bad or the hinges bad? You may only need to replace the bushings within the hinge. Quick fix? Move your striker on the door jam and the door will be aligned. Of course it won't open and close correctly, but it will LOOK correct
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11:00 AM
TopNotch Member
Posts: 3537 From: Lawrenceville, GA USA Registered: Feb 2009
If your hinge bushings are good, and your door closes OK, you don't need to adjust the door, but only the door skin. Yes, they are adjustable. The screw holes are slotted, and the screw behind the trim near the handle screws into a plastic piece that is adjustable.
[This message has been edited by TopNotch (edited 11-01-2011).]
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11:07 AM
gtxbullet Member
Posts: 4180 From: Pewaukee, Wisconsin, USA Registered: Apr 2008
Try this test: open the door partway (maybe about 6 inches, just enough so you can grab the bottom), and lift up on it. When you lift up, do you notice any play in the hinges? If so, then one or both of the hinge pin bushings is worn. Rodney Dickman sells replacements, and the tools needed for the job.
As mentioned above, the quick fix would be to adjust the door latch mechanism. But this will cause the door striker to hit it off-center. Repeated use can damage the latch mechanism and/or wear down the striker pin. So don't leave it like that.
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11:23 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Do what I do for lots of older used cars. Remove the latch striker. open the door just enough you can get a piece of 2x4 under the bottom jam. Then holding the door as shut as you can with the block under it, use a floor jack to lift at the back end of the door. Then release it and see how it lines up. go a little at a time till its level, then reinstall the latch. It really dont take much movement to bend it up, but I have jacked it up till a wheel was almost off the ground. You using the vehicle weight to bend the hinges. Works nearly everytime unless the door jam is rusted out. It even works if hinge is worn out or bushings are shot.
If your hinge bushings are good, and your door closes OK, you don't need to adjust the door, but only the door skin. Yes, they are adjustable. The screw holes are slotted, and the screw behind the trim near the handle screws into a plastic piece that is adjustable.
Hmmm.... I have had the skins off to replace the dew wipes in and out.... I never noticed there was an adjustment... the rubber/urethane skin is what we are talking about yes???
quote
Originally posted by jaskispyder:
Are the bushings bad or the hinges bad? You may only need to replace the bushings within the hinge. Quick fix? Move your striker on the door jam and the door will be aligned. Of course it won't open and close correctly, but it will LOOK correct
I was going to ask how do I tell what shape my bushings are in... and then...
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
Try this test: open the door partway (maybe about 6 inches, just enough so you can grab the bottom), and lift up on it. When you lift up, do you notice any play in the hinges? If so, then one or both of the hinge pin bushings is worn. Rodney Dickman sells replacements, and the tools needed for the job.
As mentioned above, the quick fix would be to adjust the door latch mechanism. But this will cause the door striker to hit it off-center. Repeated use can damage the latch mechanism and/or wear down the striker pin. So don't leave it like that.
Cool I will check it tonight to see if there is play... worst case I could adjust the striker for the pics and then put it back & fix it right?
[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 11-01-2011).]
Do what I do for lots of older used cars. Remove the latch striker. open the door just enough you can get a piece of 2x4 under the bottom jam. Then holding the door as shut as you can with the block under it, use a floor jack to lift at the back end of the door. Then release it and see how it lines up. go a little at a time till its level, then reinstall the latch. It really dont take much movement to bend it up, but I have jacked it up till a wheel was almost off the ground. You using the vehicle weight to bend the hinges. Works nearly everytime unless the door jam is rusted out. It even works if hinge is worn out or bushings are shot.
Guess this works prefect if the previous owner was a dummy and bent the door down leaning on it... LOL! The car is virtually rust free... only some typical surface rust on the cradle and suspension and where p.o. dummy scratched up the floor pan with a jack... in fact i had NO issues pulling any of the suspension and bolts when I did the poly upgrade! Thank goodness!
Might try this. But will it cause any other issues? Have you done it with a fiero... will it crack the door skin?
[This message has been edited by redraif (edited 11-01-2011).]
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12:11 PM
TopNotch Member
Posts: 3537 From: Lawrenceville, GA USA Registered: Feb 2009
Hmmm.... I have had the skins off to replace the dew wipes in and out.... I never noticed there was an adjustment... the rubber/urethane skin is what we are talking about yes???
Yes, but actually plastic.
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12:49 PM
DimeMachine Member
Posts: 957 From: Eastern Metro, Minnesota, USA Registered: Sep 2011
Guess this works prefect if the previous owner was a dummy and bent the door down leaning on it... LOL! The car is virtually rust free... only some typical surface rust on the cradle and suspension and where p.o. dummy scratched up the floor pan with a jack... in fact i had NO issues pulling any of the suspension and bolts when I did the poly upgrade! Thank goodness!
Might try this. But will it cause any other issues? Have you done it with a fiero... will it crack the door skin?
Don't do it. Fix the problem by replacing bushings or adjusting the hinge bolts.
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01:13 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
If you do have a nice car, fix it right. My way is just what I said, a cheap car lot way. It works when dealer dont want to spend $100 to fix it. It really dont affect anything else. What makes them sag is worn hinges, worn bushings or just the weight of the door over time. I do it on lots of Explorers because theres no way to get in to the upper hinge without pulling the dash. Dealer likes spending $25 to make it shut over $500 every time
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01:58 PM
nitroheadz28 Member
Posts: 4774 From: Brooklyn, NY Registered: Mar 2010
projects.... My interest is totally peaked... Might just be stopping for a visit. So far so good on the cars behavior so I plan to be coming to the next club meeting for sure... Hopefully I get to meet you?
projects.... My interest is totally peaked... Might just be stopping for a visit. So far so good on the cars behavior so I plan to be coming to the next club meeting for sure... Hopefully I get to meet you?
Haven't been able to make it to a meeting for a LONG time. Just don't have the money for gas, & it doesn't look like I'll have any in time for this month's meeting either (all bills are due & I have no income at this time). You know about the VW Cabriolet with Fiero running gear & mid-engine SBC, right? Then there's the pickup, Z car, 3 Fieros, 2 Beetles... Heck I might even have the slot car track down (it's suspended on cables) if you're lucky. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Try this test: open the door partway (maybe about 6 inches, just enough so you can grab the bottom), and lift up on it. When you lift up, do you notice any play in the hinges? If so, then one or both of the hinge pin bushings is worn. Rodney Dickman sells replacements, and the tools needed for the job.
As mentioned above, the quick fix would be to adjust the door latch mechanism. But this will cause the door striker to hit it off-center. Repeated use can damage the latch mechanism and/or wear down the striker pin. So don't leave it like that.
So I went out and checked the car last night. With the door partially open... I lift up on the bottom end and I can move the door with a nice thunka, thunka sound... I had no one to see where the movement was occuring, but I'm fairly certain its the pins... Everything looks original and now that I think back, I remeber the door sqeaked something aweful when I got it. It already lightly hits and lifts up onto the stricker when it closes... stricker is pretty worn already...
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09:35 AM
PFF
System Bot
jaskispyder Member
Posts: 21510 From: Northern MI Registered: Jun 2002
I think the hinges are ok... the cars doors open and close without much force. I had to really work it to get the thunka thanka... Thank you for the article... Makes me a bit less afraid... Just wish the pics were better & there were more of them... LOL... guess I will be documenting this fix!
Ok... So I can get the bushing in the help section... what about the pins... GM like the article says? Or do I assume and start with the bushings? Autozone or the like have the spring tool? Or should I just order it all form Rodney?
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02:03 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
You just knock the old pins and bushings out with long rod and hammer. Do ONLY ONE hinge at a time. Pins should push up towards the top. New ones just press back in and push the new pins down in. The only one that takes some work is the one with the hold open catch. I bought a $50 tool thats supposed to do it, but its more work than the old way. Just takes up drawer space now.
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04:38 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
Between two people it is not hard at all. I just did my door today. Was sagging and had the thunka thanka. Now is like new. Pins alone took us about 45 minutes. I had to do the roller too so total was time 1.5hrs. Easy way for us (I have done two doors already) is to remove the pins and take the door off. Then you can somewhat easily remove and reinstall the bushings. Then you place it back and put the pins in. We used a jack to hold the door from the bottom and lift/align as needed to remove and install the pins. Before all these you will need to remove the little spring with a compressor tool that is sold at autoparts and HarborFreight for cheap. You need two people to do it as one will be holding and helping to align the door while the other removes/install pins. Some good vice are usefull to get the pins and bushings out. Work slowly and all be fine. Like I said, it is a 40-60min job.
If your hinge bushings are good, and your door closes OK, you don't need to adjust the door, but only the door skin. Yes, they are adjustable. The screw holes are slotted, and the screw behind the trim near the handle screws into a plastic piece that is adjustable.
well I took a good look at the hinges today .... Yipes the bushings are moving out of the hinges on their own. I actually have one missing. Not sure if the previous owner tried a failed or if they just fell out on their own. Pics tomorrow or Monday!
did the above trick to mask the driver door sag. The passenger side got a plumped temporary door pin cover... Lol...
------------------ Rescued & resuscitated 1984 Indy Fiero Pace Car presently reversibly modified...LOL!
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12:38 AM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
I was going to mention the door when you posted pictures for the calendar shoot. I decided not to in case you were sensitive about it. But seeing you're interested in fixing it, your belt trim is also mismatched. Just trying to be helpful.
belt trim... Meaning the smooth versus the channeled style black body moldings? I swapped the doors over to smooth when I fixed the rotted dew wipes... The rear needs a bumper swap but the donor is silver, so waiting on other body work before I swap over... The light sections have not been swapped due to not having a full set... Most are cracked and broke in the bone yards. So yes they are presently mismatched
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11:36 AM
Nov 7th, 2011
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I only do one hinge pin at a time with the door open and on the car. Most cars these days have power everything and you have to pull the wiring harness to get the door off. I prefer to leave it all alone and do it on the car. Its not that hard and takes less time. Ive even had wiring problems in the harness when Ive had a door off. They corrode inside the insulation and from flexing when door is opened and closed. You will never see the defect and when you reinstall the door, you cant get something like power locks, windows , etc to work that was working till you messed with it. Takes hours to figure out where the problem is. (just sayin). Then you dont have a customer coming back saying you broke his window or lock.
yes I want to try to swap pins with the door attached... One at a time... Can the bushing be swapped with the door attached?
It is so easy to remove the door and work outside with all the space that I see no reason why not. My GT had all option so it required to disconnect three plugs. That and the rubber is like 2min max. If the wiring is going to fail (which I think is rare) then why not know it then and fix it too? Depending on your tools removing the bushings with the door on can be major PITA or not too hard. Trust me, removing the door looks much harder than what it is.
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02:53 PM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
Yes, pins and bushing can be done on the car just like I said.
My 6 way power seat stopped working in the Caddy. I spent 5 hours under the seat, under the carpet, in the kick panel. Finally found it was a wire corroded inside the insulation under the carpet. It was inside the harnes and all looked perfect. Had to keep testing each of dozens of wires one at a time, length at a time for continuity before found the bad one. Dealer wanted $500-$600 to diagnose and repair it.
Explorers and Lincolns are notorious for broken wires inside insulation at door jams. Ive had a lot of them.
[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-08-2011).]
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04:47 PM
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
My 6 way power seat stopped working in the Caddy. ...
Hear that all the time on Caddys not Pontiacs If you are running a business I can understand the shortcut to avoid the risk. On my own car I do it right
so im back to finally collecting parts for my project. no one ever listed any part numbers for the autozone bushings and pins... or are they generic GM? Or should i just order from rodney and be done with it?
------------------ 1984 Indy Fiero SE Pace Car Replica #770 "SE" Stormtrooper Edition Rescued, resuscitated and reversibly modified! (I'm so not done yet!) Poly all round & Black Drag DR-34s Frt: 225/45 on 18x8 (47 offset w/ 8-9mm spacer) 1.5 coils cut off 1984 WS6 springs Rear: 265/35 on 18x8.5 (45 offset) Coil-overs w/ 10 inch 300lb springs & 7 inch sleeve
Everything is the previous owners fault!
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04:51 PM
Haru1224 Member
Posts: 32 From: Dayton, Ohio, US Registered: Mar 2012
I got mine from Rodney. I boogered a bushing and had to buy one from NAPA and it was way more expensive than Rodney. plus it was faster having Rodney ship than driving from my house to NAPA to pick it up. LOL. I did mine with the door left on. I borrowered a cherry picker and would highly recommend that. My bushings and pins were stubborn coming out, no way I would have wanted to do it just with a lift under the bottom of the door, although I used that too to help stabalize. I was going to disconnect the wiring and decided I had enough room. weeks later I saw a tool to remove hinges that is like an offset large drft, that looks like that would have made it much easier to do. I'm glad I suffered through it (not telling how long it took) the door works great now. Bushings pressed in pretty easy using a bolt and nuts that tigtened down on it.
My door was sagging on my 86 Sport. I replaced the bushings and it was still hitting the body with the door. Turned out that the door panel was off. I loosened it and adjusted it to line up the lines. Another great tip to tighten up the doors is to replace the striker with a Ford Striker. It holds the door much tighter. Bascially get the new striker from Autozone or Advance and cut the plastic bushing off it and install, real simple but tightens the door up a lot.
My door was sagging on my 86 Sport. I replaced the bushings and it was still hitting the body with the door. Turned out that the door panel was off. I loosened it and adjusted it to line up the lines. Another great tip to tighten up the doors is to replace the striker with a Ford Striker. It holds the door much tighter. Bascially get the new striker from Autozone or Advance and cut the plastic bushing off it and install, real simple but tightens the door up a lot.
When they ask what car it is for, what ford did you say? Or is this a part on the floor?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-09-2012).]
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05:26 PM
fierogt28 Member
Posts: 2962 From: New-Brunswick, Canada. Registered: Feb 2005
My door was sagging on my 86 Sport. I replaced the bushings and it was still hitting the body with the door. Turned out that the door panel was off. I loosened it and adjusted it to line up the lines. Another great tip to tighten up the doors is to replace the striker with a Ford Striker. It holds the door much tighter. Bascially get the new striker from Autozone or Advance and cut the plastic bushing off it and install, real simple but tightens the door up a lot.
No need to "cut" the plastic bushing off. Just pull the metal washer or twist it to come off and slide the plastic bushing outwards.
I know, I did this modification to 1 of my 88GTs and the doors are much tighter, and the door moved up once closed.
The original door striker bolts do tend to wear.
------------------ fierogt28
88 GT, Loaded, 5-speed. 88 GT, 5-speed. All original.
)
