Alright my 3.8 was running great when droped out of the donor fiero. somewhere along the line things got mixed up...

things i have done
new PCM (tried 4 others and it still runs rich so my guess is either wire harness or engine related most likely engine related)
new wire harness from Phonedawgz
new wires new plugs
EGR delete
New O2 sensor (heated)

What ive done

jumped to my truck to see if the alt was bad (meaning not enough volts to create good spark and nothing changed
open air filter nothing changed took out most sensors and they all look new...
Would having bad injectors make this happen?

Thanks in advance
Josh

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1987 Black GT Custom interior with Mr. Mikes seats Series 1 L67 W/ 5 speed getrag! not running yet

Did you reprogram the PCM for egr delete?

You just need a tune. Can you scan it? Did you change/clean the MAF? A stuck injector can cause the engine to run rich.

[This message has been edited by nosrac (edited 10-17-2011).]

A leak in the exhaust, pre O2, could cause it to run rich. Somebody sneaking larger injectors in could. Dirty fuel pressure regulator, pinched return line, etc could cause it. Live tune would do wonders.

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Turbo 3800 E85 5spd spec5
11.53@126.7

It's a series one with a obd1 I'm hopefully checking injectors tom.

Most likely causes are
- Vacuum leaks
- defective O2 sensor
- defective FPR or restricted return (are you sure you didn't cross or pinch any lines)
- leaking fuel injector(s)
- restrictive air intake/filter (especially if it runs rich only at high rpm's)
- defective MAF sensor, or MAP sensor
- defective thermostat (stuck open)
- fuel in the oil

Plug in a tool and check reading against known good ones

.

How do you know it is "running rich"?

I see wrong maf sensor configurations all the time.... pre 99 mafs in 99tbs... etc etc..

quote Originally posted by nosrac: You just need a tune.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Live tune would do wonders.

Here's the problem. According to the information the OP gave me when I made a chip for him, he basically has a stock 3800 Series 1 SC engine with a 5-speed trans running on a 1470 PCM. I've burned many chips for swaps just like what this guy has done and all of those have run fine. I'm convinced something is either wrong with the OP's wiring, or with something on the engine (possibly an injector, some kind of leak, sensor issue, etc). He said he's had 4 computers and/or chips in it and all have done the same thing.

Another tune / live tune, is NOT going to PROPERLY fix anything. He needs to figure out what he has going on that is causing the problem. If he doesn't find the true cause of the problem that's causing the engine to run rich and he has someone do a "live tune" on it; then that tune is going to be incorrect and nothing more than a band-aid to cover up what is really going on here - if it is even able to get the engine running right.

Celthora87GT: The first thing you need to do is gain the ability to scan the PCM you are using. TunerPro RT has this ability, and for your specific system. When you need to do is check to make sure all the sensor data displayed is correct and nothing is "out of range" (ie: like the coolant temp sensor is reporting lower than actual temps). If everything on the scan looks good, then you need to check the basics: power, grounds, etc to the PCM. Fuel pressure, check for a leaking injector, etc.

If you get TunerPro scans you can email them to me and I'll be happy to look at them to see if I can detect anything wrong.

-ryan

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OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

Tunerpro RT is free (nagware) but I believe you need a cable from them.

I do have a cable btw, that I could send you.

I am currently doing a 4.9 and need it for this, however I should be done with it by tomorrow. I could send it to you and you could scan with it. It uses a USB port so most any laptop will work.

idk if there is a possibility to use any home made cable with it.

Thank you Darth. Everyone and their mother is saying "live tune! live tune!" and i simply reply IT NEEDS TO RUN FIRST. i do not think it is something with your tune although your tune is acting much weirder than the others and we already spoke of this. i truly think it is something with the engine. because Phonedawgz wiring harness should be perfect but you never know.
I did get some injectors from the yard today but they are from a series one 3800 NON supercharged.... (all of the supercharged cars were burnt to a crisp). The yard is a junkyard that the owner is trying to make a pick and pull but it is the only decent one in my area.
Can anyone tell me if the non supercharged ones are differant from the supercharged ones...

DarkHorizion- i know it is running rich because it smells sooooo bad and is smoking pretty bad

BUTTT i will put the "new" injectors in tomorrow and see what that does. hopefully an injector is just stuck open.

Thank you all
i will post here how my test goes

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1987 Black GT Custom interior with Mr. Mikes seats Series 1 L67 W/ 5 speed getrag! not running yet

You can check for a stuck open injector by watching the fuel pressure after key-off. It should hold pretty steddy for at least two minutes. If you suspect one sticking only with the engine running, try unpluging one at a time and run the engine off 5 cylinders...see if it runs better off 5 than 6.

Something I've read here in the past, make sure you have the plug wires routed right. It can be easy to confuse the cylinder numbers now that your looking at the BACK of the engine instead of the front. Coil packs can confuse people if the coils were mixed around and you go by the factory numbering (if they are factory coils).

Fuel pressure regulators can fail and dump a bunch of un mettered fuel into the engine through it's vacuum line.

Double check the wiring for the coolant sensor to make sure it is a reference ground not a chassis ground on it, most series I's had two coolant sensors one for the computer and one for the gauge. If they are mixed up the computer will be getting the wrong reading and think it is very cold out side and make the engine run rich to compensate.
Other then that check real close for vacuum leaks although that will usually cause a high idle problem as well or a bad O2 sensor. Dan

You can pull the fuel rail from the engine; leave the injectors installed in the rail (make sure they are clipped in), then key on the ignition so the fuel pump runs. If you have a leaking injector, you'll see it right away. Make sure you put rags under all of the injectors when you do this to make sure you catch any fuel that might leak out.

1fatcat brought up a good point about the coil pack. If you have the GEN2 type coil pack, the coils can be swapped around on the module and if you are using the numbers on the coils for hooking your plug wires up, this could be an issue. There are numbers molded into the module that indicate which pair of cylinders are supposed to be connected to that coil. I have a picture showing the correct coil placement on my website here: http://www.gmtuners.com/tech/coilpack.htm (bottom picture)

If everything is correct with the coil pack and you don't have leaking injectors, then you're going to need to get some scan data so we can see what is going on.

He is using a 3 wire CTS sensor

Yes the outside pins of the CTS are wired to the CTS pin and the sensor ground.

but im only using one sensor which hole should the sensor be plugged into? the one under the TB or the one that sits right next to the 6 cylinder. would not having enough coolant cause this? its not filled to the top with all the air burped out...

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1987 Black GT Custom interior with Mr. Mikes seats Series 1 L67 W/ 5 speed getrag! not running yet

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Another tune / live tune, is NOT going to PROPERLY fix anything. He needs to figure out what he has going on that is causing the problem. If he doesn't find the true cause of the problem that's causing the engine to run rich and he has someone do a "live tune" on it; then that tune is going to be incorrect and nothing more than a band-aid to cover up what is really going on here - if it is even able to get the engine running right. -ryan

My bad I thought it was OBDII and he was using stock PCM and tunes.

quote Originally posted by nosrac: My bad I thought it was OBDII and he was using stock PCM and tunes.

No worries; it's cool. FYI: Stock or lightly modded engines should run fine on stock tunes regardless if they are running OBD1 or OBD2 PCMs. What the OP has going on has raised a few eyebrows, especially since he's tried several different computers and chips and none run good. I suspect something simple is causing this (like incorrect firing order or a bad ground); he just needs to find it.

I beleive that you need to remove the mystery by getting a good scanner and taking a look at everything. Modern ODBII engines cannot be easily diagnosed without scanning and data logging. My guess is that a sensor is either defective or its outputs are not being inputted to the computer. A scan will tell you exactly what is wrong.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Update....
I redid my grounds and made sure they were good. i checked for leaking injectors by taking the injectors out of the LIM and leaving them on the fuel rail and turning the key waiting two min and it still had pressure.
Checked firing order (again)
JUST TO MAKE SURE

when looking at the 3800 from the back of the car the Cylnder #1 is on firewall side all the way right by the belts and # two is directly accross on the trunk side belt side. # 3 is firewall side middle and #4 is trunk side middle and #5 is firewall side trans side and #6 is trunk side trans side? I am almost positive thats what it is but just to cross that off i might as well ask.
Josh
And thanks guys for helping so much

Yes

Hey Tim If you are not using that Cable could you send it on down? it would be greatly apreciated ive come down to scaning it because i seriously have absolutly no idea what would be causing this. hopefully just a faulty sensor. i will send all back as a nice big package.

Oh the previous owner of the engine had a stock 2.8 IAT sensor installed..... didnt notice till i pulled it from the intake to check if it was clogged. went out and bought a new 92 park ave sensor and made no differance.....

So if your running a series 1 engine, what ecm are you using? Also, what maf sensor? Also, what o2 sensor?...1 wire, 4 wire?

The ECM is 16141470 i think. the Maf im guessing is stock i didnt know they made mafs for differant applications and the o2 sensor is 4 wire and its brand new

EDIT: Alright so i just checked when i switched the two fuses Phonedawgz supplied in his harness for the INJ1 and INJ2 just to make sure i had them in right and when i switched them it ran even crappier so maybe the INJ1 and INJ2 are not getting enough power????? just a thought and something i noticed.... i switched them back and ran as it has been for a month now...

[This message has been edited by Celthora87GT (edited 10-27-2011).]

changing fuses cannot change engine performance by itself. There is something else going on there....maybe poor connections or increased resistance.

quote Originally posted by Gall757: changing fuses cannot change engine performance by itself. There is something else going on there....maybe poor connections or increased resistance.

That's what I was thinking too. I don't see how changing fuses or fuse sizes would change anything...assuming niether fuse blew out, the current should still flow.

Have you tried running it with the O2 electrical connector unplugged?

Alright tried running with O2 sensor unplugged and nothing changed... do you think the o2 sensor is messed up sending false readings?

That can't be the cause of the trouble if the engine runs the same with the O2 sensor unplugged.

Alright
Three things that make an engine run.
Spark
Air
Fuel
i either have to little spark....
too much fuel....
to little air....

Spark can be crossed off because that is checked and is OK and i have firing order set in stone and the coils in the correct
It will run the same with air filter on or air filter off ( cone K&N filter right off of TB)
so it has to be fuel.... There are 6 things to the fuel system. 1. Fuel pump 2. Fuel lines 3. Fuel filter 4. Fuel rail 5. Fuel pressure regulator 6. Fuel injector....
if the fuel pump was sending to much fuel the FPR would fix that (i have tried 2 differant FPR the one that was on there and a new one)
If the fuel line was kinked it would recive not enough pressure and if the return line was kinked (checked OK) it would pressureize to much but its fine
not sure how the fuel filter would mess with this at all
Fuel rail could be ???? no idea how that would affect it either
FPR was covered already
and lastly the fuel injectors which have been checked OK for holding pressure


When the engine is taken to about 1500 RPM up from 900 idle it blows massive amounts of fuel rich smoke im afraid to take it any farther....
UGH!!!!!

This thread is getting kinda long, so maybe I missed it, but have you confirmed that the injectors are in fact the right ones or that they are not worn and sending too much gas to the engine? What is stock,,,19 lb.or 17?....maybe these guys are shooting 24 and you don't know it.

I have not confirmed that the injectors are stock im not sure how.

Are you running the correct MAP sensor?

Wait - no MAP sensor on the series I

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 10-31-2011).]

no MAP sensor its a 1992 engine....

And this MAF is the same as what was on the engine before right?

Yes sir it is nothing was changed that didnt need to be changed excluding plugs and wires i did that because the engine was out and it was easy

When is good for me to come down and look at it?

When ever you would like. then you can pick up the wire harness and the two PROMS i work till 3 and am free after all this week. is there anything you need me to have ready does the car need to be able to drive because currently there isnt much of an exhaust on it. and the inside is still torn apart and brakes are not bleed

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1987 Black GT Custom interior with Mr. Mikes seats Series 1 L67 W/ 5 speed getrag! not running yet

Well you just want to get it to run for now right?

Tomorrow (11/1 at 4:00) works for me btw.

Works for me too 414 213 9577

k - I'll see you there at 4

920.371.0849