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Another 4T65EHD axle setup question by hercimer01
Started on: 09-03-2011 03:18 AM
Replies: 32
Last post by: hercimer01 on 09-16-2011 03:16 AM
hercimer01
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Report this Post09-03-2011 03:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
I have an 86 GT.

I have a set of ?year automatic axles and a set of 86 manual axles and the 1998 4t65EHD tulips with the 1998 GTP axles.

I have read a ton of threads and am more confused than when i started.

I am not looking for the "definitive answer" Just what worked for you with the fieroX motor mounts (I think the engine placement is the same as the WCF mounts.)
Im just looking for what works with what I have. Whats your setup?

Will this work?

4t65ehd driver side = Edit removed guesses
4t65ehd pass side = Edit removed guesses


------------------
Project Genisis Lo Budget 3800SC swap in progress

88 formula 3.4L 4t60 swap

[This message has been edited by hercimer01 (edited 09-14-2011).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-03-2011 08:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
On the subject of 3800 swap axles there is no universal solution. It all depends on how you mount your powertrain and/or whos' ready made mounts you are using. On some swaps (as on my own) the axles will be exactly the same length on others the passenger side will be longer. Best to measure up and go from there and make up an axle by choosing a Cavalier, Beretta, Fiero manual, or GTP bar ( of the proper length) with the GTP inner and Fiero outer cups and the appropriate insides.
The common axle combo (that BTW I have not been able to get a proper fit out of) is to plug the FIero driver auto side axle in on the left (driver) side and use the driver bar with Fiero and GTP ends (and insides) on the passenger side. However, the ONLY way to get a precise fit is to measure up and have axles made or make them up from parts. Lots of guys on this forum will disagree with this but proper fitting always brings you within the allowable tolerances. Too loose or too tight a fit and the axle will break along with possible transmisson damage as well.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-03-2011 12:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Best to measure up and go from there and make up an axle by choosing a Cavalier, Beretta, Fiero manual, or GTP bar ( of the proper length) with the GTP inner and Fiero outer cups and the appropriate insides.



What years would the Cavalier and Beretta axles be?

[This message has been edited by hercimer01 (edited 09-03-2011).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-03-2011 04:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:


What years would the Cavalier and Beretta axles be?



IIRC the interchange would be the 90-93 Berettas driver side with the 3.1L /Getrag 5 speeds and the 90-94 Cavaliers with the same powertrain. Measure up head out to the junkyards, then measure up there again and choose. One day we should try to get a listing of GM axle lengths pinned on this forum.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-08-2011 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

On some swaps (as on my own) the axles will be exactly the same length on others the passenger side will be longer. Best to measure up and go from there and make up an axle by choosing a Cavalier, Beretta, Fiero manual, or GTP bar ( of the proper length) with the GTP inner and Fiero outer cups and the appropriate insides.


With my Engine / Trans setup. The stock supercharger pulley is almost even with the trunk lid. Where is your pulley with the even shaft setups? 1/2" to the right? What does this measurement need to be to make the axles equal length?

This is with stock ride height and fieroX engine mounts in an 86 GT.
If I move the engine mounts to the passenger side 1/2" the axle measurements will be equal. Two 14" inner axle shafts (measured from end to end disassembled). That is the measurement of the 86 4speed inner axle shafts DRIVERS SIDE. The 4 speed axle would be plug and play (axle shaft and outer CV joint and the 4t65EHD tulips.) This would leave about 1/2" to 5/8" clearance to full compression inside the tulip with the axles level.

If we could nail down this install on a public level here on the forum, at least to make it more universal, that would be great.

Does this sound about right Dennis?

[This message has been edited by hercimer01 (edited 09-09-2011).]

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Alex4mula
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Report this Post09-08-2011 09:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
I will repeat this again and again until some more people cooperates on this...
Now that I have built a 3800 I'm convince that this axle issue shouldn't be an issue for anyone if we all cooperated with a littel more detailed information from our swaps. I also spent hours reading and trying to figure out just because all the vague posts. If everybody gave a reference measurement like from the trany to the cradle and then state what axle you used it would solve the problem. Hell we can make a list like the 1/4mile list with everybody's solutions.
Having said that, on my 2004 3800SC, on an 88 cradle, the distance from the face of the trany mounting face (or block) to the very edge of the side cradle frame is 12". The Fiero auto driver side seems to fit fine with that with my 2008 4t65E. I guess for non-88 cradles the measurement may be different but there are many out there with those. I used a driver side Grand Prix for the Fiero passenger side. The 2000+ Cavalier one was too short and the GP driver too long. WCF mounts just in case but what matters is the final location relationship.
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Report this Post09-08-2011 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxTakeoffSend a Private Message to MaxTakeoffDirect Link to This Post
Here are a few CV axle compressed lengths I have collected from EMPI's website, I don't have the information to be able to convert these to the actual length of the axle shaft though. Figured it might add another piece to the puzzle.



BTW, my engine is sitting over to the right compared to yours hercimer01, here's mine ...



Based on my rough measurements, my PS axle wants to be about 1/2" to 3/4" shorter than my DS, and the stock Fiero auto DS axle that is normally plug and play is too short.
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-08-2011 01:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
So the idea here is to get a standard measurement for better preplaning. Can we get the trans tulips centered measured from the 4T65EHD tulip tips to the hubs. I believe this will allow Fiero drivers side manual axles to be used on both sides plug and play.
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Report this Post09-08-2011 02:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:

I will repeat this again and again until some more people cooperates on this...
Now that I have built a 3800 I'm convince that this axle issue shouldn't be an issue for anyone if we all cooperated with a littel more detailed information from our swaps. I also spent hours reading and trying to figure out just because all the vague posts. If everybody gave a reference measurement like from the trany to the cradle and then state what axle you used it would solve the problem. Hell we can make a list like the 1/4mile list with everybody's solutions.


The problem you run into here is a side to side measurement doesn't account for height (how high the engine/trans is mounted on the cradle). My custom mounts (not sold for mail order) put the engine/trans as low on the cradle as possible without compromising ground clearance (ie: the transmission pan bottom sits on the bottom plane of the cradle's bottom). ALL of the other ready-made custom conversion mounts I've seen mount the engine/trans an inch or two higher than this. And this WILL affect axle lengths to a small degree. Something else that will affect axle lengths is whether or not the engine/trans is sitting in the engine bay squarely. I've seen some pretty crooked engine swaps where the engine/trans was mounted in there so crookedly it would certainly impact what length axles you would need. So it isn't as simple as just taking one measurement to determine what axles you need to run.

The guy who sold you the swap mounts should be able to tell you what length axles (or what axle parts) you need to finish your swap. Since he made the mounts, he should know exactly what length axles you need.

Bottom line is you need to use a length of axle that will not allow the tripot bearings to bottom out nor pull out of the tripot end throughout the suspension's full travel. I saw a thread on here a while back where a guy took the boot off the tripot end, cleaned out all the grease, then installed the axle and tripot end dry, on the car, so he could see where that tripot bearing on the end of the axle was riding in the tripot end housing as he moved his suspension up and down. While this is time consuming, it is the only way to be certain you are using the correct length axle. Having said that, I would recommend running the longest axle you can so the tripot bearings ride as deep in the tripot housing as possible since that is the strongest part of the tripot housing. Of course you do not want to run too long of an axle as this can cause your tripot bearings to bottom out and bind up in the tripot housing end at the extremes of rear suspension travel.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-09-2011 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
Can we just work on centering up the trans to the hubs? 2 equal shafts to start with would be a great head start here.
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Report this Post09-09-2011 02:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

Can we just work on centering up the trans to the hubs? 2 equal shafts to start with would be a great head start here.




A little extra work will go a long way some times. This is one place that you will profit from extra work. When you think you got it all right, run the suspension all the way up and down with the boots off and turning the wheels by hand at the same time. In other words, put it all together without springs on the struts and use a floor jack at each rear knuckle and lift the rear suspension up as you turn the wheel. Look inside the tripot as the wheel turns and lifts. Check for binding. If at ANY time the wheel has "hard spots" as you turn it, the axle is to long. If the inner tripot is to colse to the outer lip of the cup, your axle is to short.
DO NOT JUST TAKE SOMEONES WORD FOR IT. This is VERY important. If your axles are on the raged edge of effective use, they will fail in time and or hard use.
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Report this Post09-09-2011 08:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxTakeoffSend a Private Message to MaxTakeoffDirect Link to This Post
I agree, we should all check our axles once we have a set up that looks like it will work, but that doesn't help us with finding a potential solution to check.
I am having great difficutly finding information on axle shaft length and what applications have axle shaft diameters and spline geometry that will work with Fiero and GTP parts.

 
quote
If we could nail down this install on a public level here on the forum, at least to make it more universal, that would be great.


I totally support this; it looks I have mounted my tranny unusually far over to the PS so if I could find what other people have used for a similar set up, it would be great. Even if there were no information on my particular set up, I could at least get an idea of what won't work or what combinations of inners, axle shafts and outers are possible.
I have collected a bit of information on what axles have been used in some swaps but I have no clue where the trannies were mounted, I'd be happy to share if anyone's interested - I only have 5 so far.

The height of the tranny does have an impact but for a 15" length, a change of 2" in height would only change the length by 1/8" - still worth taking into account. UPDATE - I realized that I made an error in my calcs and for an axle 10" long, a change in tranny height of 1 inch would actually change the axle length by more like 1/2" - much more sensitive than I thought.

[This message has been edited by MaxTakeoff (edited 09-14-2011).]

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Report this Post09-09-2011 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NiterrorzSend a Private Message to NiterrorzDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

Can we just work on centering up the trans to the hubs? 2 equal shafts to start with would be a great head start here.


measure the length of the trans from tripot to tripot and then measure the distance from wheel hub to wheel hub. subtract and divide by two and we have a start.

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 09-09-2011).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-09-2011 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:


With my Engine / Trans setup. The stock supercharger pulley is almost even with the trunk lid. Where is your pulley with the even shaft setups? 1/2" to the right? What does this measurement need to be to make the axles equal length?

This is with stock ride height and fieroX engine mounts in an 86 GT.
If I move the engine mounts to the passenger side 1/2" the axle measurements will be equal. Two 14" inner axle shafts (measured from end to end disassembled). That is the measurement of the 86 4speed inner axle shafts DRIVERS SIDE. The 4 speed axle would be plug and play (axle shaft and outer CV joint and the 4t65EHD tulips.) This would leave about 1/2" to 5/8" clearance to full compression inside the tulip with the axles level.

If we could nail down this install on a public level here on the forum, at least to make it more universal, that would be great.

Does this sound about right Dennis?



My 3800SC is a series III /4T65eHD and the pulley sits about 1" to the right of the hinge. My engine position is more to the passenger side than most other installs, hence the axle lengths are identical. The powertrain is actually perfectly centered in the engine compartment which I consider beneficial. quite a bit more towards the battery than in the above picture. The point is that no two auto swaps are exactly the same. Fierox, WCF, purplereign and DIY mounts all position the engine differently. With the Getrag you don't have this problem as you use the stock trans mounts so the axles stay stock in the OEM position.
------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 09-09-2011).]

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post09-09-2011 12:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MaxTakeoff:


The height of the tranny does have an impact but for a 15" length, a change of 2" in height would only change the length by 1/8" - still worth taking into account.



Don't forget that the higher the engine/trans sits on the cradle, the more of an angle the axle is going to be at with the suspension unloaded. And this greater angle will make the tripot bearings ride deeper into the tripot housing end (at the bottom) as the axle turns.

Also keep in mind that changing the rear alignment (camber) angles will impact axle length as well. The more negative the camber, the shorter the axle will need to be. The more positive the camber angle, the longer the axle will need to be.

If you've replaced the rear struts and the car requires an alignment, make sure you give yourself enough room on the axle length to allow for some change when the alignment is done.

Sorry guys, but there is no one-size-fits-all solution here. Everybody's conversion mounts are different, and no two swaps are exactly the same. Any change in powertrain mounting height or position can affect axle length. Rickady88GT said it best.
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Report this Post09-09-2011 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
..

Sorry guys, but there is no one-size-fits-all solution here. Everybody's conversion mounts are different, and no two swaps are exactly the same. Any change in powertrain mounting height or position can affect axle length. Rickady88GT said it best.



I have to respectfully disagree with that. Many use the same type of mounts and at the end I see they use the same type of axles. Very few I see with custom made ones. I still think that some key measurements and telling what you have could help a lot to many people and save time.
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Report this Post09-09-2011 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxTakeoffSend a Private Message to MaxTakeoffDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Don't forget that the higher the engine/trans sits on the cradle, the more of an angle the axle is going to be at with the suspension unloaded. And this greater angle will make the tripot bearings ride deeper into the tripot housing end (at the bottom) as the axle turns.


I agree but the steeper angle is with the rollers at their outer most point, so the bottom rollers are only riding deeper, close to where they will be when the axle is straightened out.

Also, on my axles, the rollers look as though they only travel about 1/2" into the tripot between the two extremes, whereas the tripots look as though they could handle a good 2" of travel and I think I read somewhere that they are designed that way. If that is correct, then an axle 1/2" shorter than one that is close to bottoming out, would still work - or looking at it another way, one axle might work for a range of tranny positions within an inch or so.

Again, I don't think we're looking for a single solution, more a bit of guidance and direction to help with finding suitable axles. Isn't it better to have people say "here's what I used, but my tranny was here so bear that in mind and be careful", rather than "there's no single solution, so you're on your own"?
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Report this Post09-09-2011 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:
I have to respectfully disagree with that. Many use the same type of mounts and at the end I see they use the same type of axles. Very few I see with custom made ones. I still think that some key measurements and telling what you have could help a lot to many people and save time.


As I said before, IF you bought a set of conversion mounts from a certain vendor (call him Vendor A), that vendor should be able to tell you what axles you'll need to use in your swap. But unless another vendor (Vendor B) is selling an exact copy of the mounts sold by Vendor A, those mounts made by Vendor B may place the engine/trans in a different position on the cradle than the mounts sold by Vendor A.

There are enough build threads on this forum that anybody can find out what axles were used in a particular swap if they used the search function (and that information is in the build thread, of course). But the fact that the axle question keeps coming up tells me either people aren't using the search function or there is no one-size-fits-all solution out there.

Again, it isn't just a matter of where your engine is sitting on the cradle in relation to right and left. You also need to know where it is sitting in relation to front to back and up and down. And differences of position across all three axis points will impact what length axles you'll need. This is the reason why I don't want to sell conversion axles for mail order. Because I know the minute I do, somebody is going to complain that they won't fit THEIR swap.
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Report this Post09-09-2011 07:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NiterrorzSend a Private Message to NiterrorzDirect Link to This Post
we should elect a board to oversee the standardization of aftermarket fiero parts.
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-09-2011 07:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
Ryan your already defeated in the idea of getting anywhere here. There is a solution to this
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-09-2011 08:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post

hercimer01

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Member since Mar 2008
A generic install with a generic suspension can be estimated to have reproducible results. Henry Ford ring a bell?
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Report this Post09-09-2011 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
Ryan.
I just realized horw i ended up starting this thread. After exhauasting all avenues of research, YES THE SEARCH FUNCTION. I came across this http://www.gmtuners.com/swap/axles.htm Your write up on how to build axles for this swap. I followed it, I found a 1999 Pontiac Montana minivan just as you described, Pulled the axle , went tried to install it as described and it wouldn't fit. So here we are. Your article mentions nothing about engine placement or ride height. Yes im frustrated . that is why im here trying to work out a soulution. I will come up with one. I will be at Fierorama, we can talk more there. Thanks, Allen.
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Report this Post09-10-2011 09:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:

Ryan.
I just realized horw i ended up starting this thread. After exhauasting all avenues of research, YES THE SEARCH FUNCTION. ...



Oh did I used the search function... I can list all the links to the different threads and won't fit a page. If they were that good then no one or few would be asking. And yes I think people can provide a 3-axis reference when they list their solution and others could use that.

Allen; Check Katakak's threads. At least for axle build/disassembly they were very detailed and super usefull for me. I spent two weeks researching and trial/error only on axles. You'll get there. Too bad we all have to go thru this.
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Report this Post09-10-2011 09:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
I can not believe that with all the 3800 swaps that have been done out there people are still having issues with making axles...It is a very simple process unless you make it difficult....All mounts offered by vendors as of now can use the same axle setup(stock auto Fiero DRV axle with built Pass from GP donor/manuel outer). If you want the swap more centered then you use 2 manual short axles.....Dont by aftermarket axles as this changes what will fit and what will not....I have said it already....unless you take several measurements and have the axles custom made you are not going to get a perfect fit...Does that matter ......NO..as many swaps are ran this way with no issues....I have used the first option I listed in all my swaps with ) issues.....

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post09-10-2011 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
originally posted by darthfiero Again, it isn't just a matter of where your engine is sitting on the cradle in relation to right and left. You also need to know where it is sitting in relation to front to back and up and down. And differences of position across all three axis points will impact what length axles you'll need. This is the reason why I don't want to sell conversion axles for mail order. Because I know the minute I do, somebody is going to complain that they won't fit THEIR swap.


 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:

I can not believe that with all the 3800 swaps that have been done out there people are still having issues with making axles...It is a very simple process unless you make it difficult....All mounts offered by vendors as of now can use the same axle setup(stock auto Fiero DRV axle with built Pass from GP donor/manuel outer). If you want the swap more centered then you use 2 manual short axles.....Dont by aftermarket axles as this changes what will fit and what will not....I have said it already....unless you take several measurements and have the axles custom made you are not going to get a perfect fit...Does that matter ......NO..as many swaps are ran this way with no issues....I have used the first option I listed in all my swaps with ) issues.....


I've tried the popular axle combo that you reference with WCF mounts and it doesn't work. The made up passenger side axle ends up being about 1" too long and the Fiero auto axle used on the passenger side is way too short. IIRC Darkhorizon uses Cavalier and Beretta axles, some guys use two Fiero manual axles, while others have had success with the Fiero auto axle and the made up GTP axle. I believe that Ryan explained it best. I just measure up and go down to the axle rebuild shop and have them made with GM parts.

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, ZZP Intercooler, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-11-2011 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:

If you want the swap more centered then you use 2 manual short axles.....Dont by aftermarket axles as this changes what will fit and what will not....I have said it already....unless you take several measurements and have the axles custom made you are not going to get a perfect fit...Does that matter ......NO..as many swaps are ran this way with no issues....


So, I talked to Ryan today and he agreed, for a centered trans two driver side manual axles will work. He also said depending on trans height and ride height will affect the axle distance moved in the tripot and as the lower control arm goes down, it swings in towards the center of the car. So I agree, Yes, Clearance inside the tripot needs to be verified after you put it all together.

I also talked to V8Archie today about the strength of these axles for this purpose and he said he runs the OEM manual axles in his V8 conversions with no Issues. He also said if you go over 400 to 500 horsepower then yes custom made axles would be needed.

It sounds like we have a consensus here for a basic L67 swap. This is the simple solution I was looking for.
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MstangsBware
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Report this Post09-11-2011 10:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


I've tried the popular axle combo that you reference with WCF mounts and it doesn't work. The made up passenger side axle ends up being about 1" too long and the Fiero auto axle used on the passenger side is way too short. IIRC Darkhorizon uses Cavalier and Beretta axles, some guys use two Fiero manual axles, while others have had success with the Fiero auto axle and the made up GTP axle. I believe that Ryan explained it best. I just measure up and go down to the axle rebuild shop and have them made with GM parts.




If the common axle setup did not work with using WCF mounts then you did not mount the engine trans in the correct auto location or the axles you where using where not the correct ones..I have never has the DRV stock Fiero auto axle be "way short" or the built Pass side axle be to short either....That doesnt make since that both where to short by that much.......
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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post09-12-2011 05:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by hercimer01:


So, I talked to Ryan today and he agreed, for a centered trans two driver side manual axles will work. He also said depending on trans height and ride height will affect the axle distance moved in the tripot and as the lower control arm goes down, it swings in towards the center of the car. So I agree, Yes, Clearance inside the tripot needs to be verified after you put it all together.

It sounds like we have a consensus here for a basic L67 swap. This is the simple solution I was looking for.


It was nice meeting you at Fierorama, Allen. I hope the information I gave you there clarified what I was trying to explain in this thread.

 
quote
Originally posted by MstangsBware:
If the common axle setup did not work with using WCF mounts then you did not mount the engine trans in the correct auto location or the axles you where using where not the correct ones..I have never has the DRV stock Fiero auto axle be "way short" or the built Pass side axle be to short either....That doesnt make since that both where to short by that much.......


This is the reason why there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution. There are production tolerances, different ways people mount their engines/transmissions, different axle parts used, different ways people use "store bought" conversion mounts (???), etc; and all this impacts what length axles will work for your swap. Like I said before, the BEST thing to do is get the information from the guy who made your mounts as to exactly what axle parts you need. Whoever made those mounts SHOULD know what you need since you are using their mounts and they should know where engine/trans is positioned on the cradle. But again, if someone bought a set of WCF's mounts (for example) and the WCF axle recommendations didn't work, then that someone didn't do something right in the installation (at least according to what WCF's says you should do).

 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:
Oh did I used the search function... I can list all the links to the different threads and won't fit a page. If they were that good then no one or few would be asking. And yes I think people can provide a 3-axis reference when they list their solution and others could use that.


Ok, suppose I provided said 3-axis measurements. What if someone is using a set of WCF or some other vendor's mounts and their 3 axis measurements don't match up with the information I provide? If they don't have the means of modifying those mounts (by cutting / welding / drilling) to get them to move the engine/trans into a position that matches MY measurements, what good are the measurements I give? They won't be any good unless you are custom making your own mounts and have the freedom to position that engine/trans on the cradle where I say it should be (if you are going to use my axle recommendations).

The custom CV axle building information I give on my website should be used as a starting point only. Do as Rickady88GT says (with the boots off) and see if my (or someone else's) axle solution works. If not, get a longer or shorter inner axle shaft until you find something that fits. For example: if the stock Fiero manual trans driver's side axle is too long, then you can use one from a 94 Beretta (driver's side) that had a 3100 V6 and 4T60-E transmission (as it is shorter). If the stock Fiero manual trans driver's side axle is not long enough (to be used in the passenger side of your conversion), then you can get a longer axle. One from a 2000 Venture van (driver's side) is a little longer.

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katatak
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Report this Post09-12-2011 11:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for katatakSend a Private Message to katatakDirect Link to This Post
I can't speak for other mount setups but I can say this. I have done 2 - 3800SC's with 4T65eHD's - one was on an 88 and the other on an 86. I used stock Fiero trans mounts and the 90's 4t60 trans mount brackets. On the firewall side of the cradle, I used the trans mount slots closest to the center of the cradle and on the trunk side I had to do some "fab" work to move the mount point closer to the center. I honestly can't say if it was centered or off center toward the passenger side. I used the exact same axle setup as Mstangs mentions above - Fiero Auto Driver side on the driver side and a combination of the GTP passenger side Tulip, GTP Driver side Axle and the Fiero outer manual using the GTP Spider, cage and bearings on both swaps - no issues at all on sither swap. I also did the mock up with no boots/grease and loose suspension and ran it through it's range of motion. I played with some Caviler axles, GTP axles, Non GTP axles, Silhouette Van axles, etc. Nothing worked as well as the above mentioned setup. I could have mounted the trans mounts in the stock Fiero location but I would have had to modify the driver side Cradle rail for trans clearance - using the stock Fiero mounts and modifying the monut point (moving the trans mounts toward the center of the cradle) allows the motor and trans to sit as low as can be without exposing the trans pan to abuse from road debris. The front - motor mounts were hand fabbed once the trans was mounted.

I agree, it would be nice to have a "list" of useable axle combinations:

I used "X" mounts and used these axles. My motor/trans sets on the "XX" year cradle X inches from some fixed point and is X inches above the bottom of the cradle.

I only wish I would have taken detailed measurments as I was doing my 2 swaps - it would make any future swaps I do a lot easier for me. Even with such a list, there will still be variables and it would be a good idea to double check the fit to make sure everything is setup correctly. You really do not want to find out that an axle is too short or too long while you are driving down the road!
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-14-2011 02:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
This is what i have so fare. I couldn't find a Cavalier or Beretta axle so i grabbed a 1991 driver side Deville axle. I still have to fit it into the car once i move the engine but this should leave 5/8" clearance in the bottom of the tulips with the hubs level to the tulips.












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MaxTakeoff
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Report this Post09-14-2011 11:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MaxTakeoffSend a Private Message to MaxTakeoffDirect Link to This Post
Hey, I wanted to point out that my earlier statement regarding the height of the tranny was incorrect, I have updated the post above. Basically, the axle length is much more sensitive to transmission height than I first thought and would need to be carefully considered for anyone making axles based on other people's experiences. Fore and aft placement would probably have a similar impact.

For my build I have found a local axle builder who says he will build up a pair of axles to my specifications for $100 CDN each, I'm supplying the inner tripots and we might be using my outer stub shafts. In my situation I think this is the best solution but I would still like to thank hercimer01 for the great pics and info - keep it up, I'm interested to see the final set up.
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-16-2011 03:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post
OK, So the measurements are in.

With the tulips centered between the hubs, from tulip tip to inner flange of the hub is 12".

The axle shafts of the manual driver side kind are 14.5" long fro tip to tip.

With the axle level, hub to tulip, there is 3/4" clearance of the rollers to the bottom of the tulip with the axle seated in the hub.

With the strut fully extended there is no binding of the axle shaft inside the tulip and it is 1.5" from the tulip tip.

All you math wizards ought to be able to come up with a formula here for ANY SETUP at least with the axles level and perpendicular for axle length. The trans is a constant and so are the hubs. Yes Darth before you go into a run on sentence where my ADHD wouldn't allow me to follow any way, your particular variation would have to verified.

Allen
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hercimer01
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Report this Post09-16-2011 03:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hercimer01Send a Private Message to hercimer01Direct Link to This Post

hercimer01

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I don't know if the 88 hubs are a different width.
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