A little early at this point but my stock camshaft in my 3.4pr was wooped. Ofcoarse I "could" buy another for about $60 bucks new but I want more kick for my 3.4 . I've always liked comp cams and there is many choices of all camshafts. What im looking for is about 1000-5000 powerband. Next is the rockers. I want to use rollers but between 1.52 or 1.6 . I know what's the difference but if I go with performance cam will a 1.6 make that much of a difference and if I went with both I assume new higher springs would be needed? Well this is where id appreciate your input and opinions cause im not the best when it comes to camshafts at times and never put one on a v6. Oh and also need input on push rods and lifters aswell. Thanks to everyone who responds
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10:49 PM
PFF
System Bot
Raydar Member
Posts: 41129 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
1.6 rockers are used if you don't want to change cams. Just get the right cam and 1.52 rockers. I used the Comp Cams 1.52 roller tip rockers. They still use a ball swivel, but the roller tip is a nice improvement over stock. I'd recommend a Crane H260 or H272 cam. The 272 will likely require a bit of head work, to ensure compressed spring clearance. I ran the 272 in my 3.4, but I also had ported heads and lower intake, and a Trueleo intake and FOCOA headers. (The FOCOAs are out of production, but the Trueleo headers appear to be just as good.) You might be able to run stock springs with the 260. Not sure that's it's recommended, however. I just used the manufacturers recommended lifters and springs with the cam I bought.
------------------ Raydar 88 Formula IMSA Fastback. 4.9, NVG T550 Praise the Lowered!
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11:02 PM
Aug 24th, 2011
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
the Cam is the middle of a 3 part system: intake - cam - exhaust
so, in order to get the benifits of a more aggresive cam - you need to open up the intake & exhaust as well. unfortunately, there are not many options.
and - yes - as mentioned above - 1.6 rockers are for when you do not want to change the cam, and still get more lift. They increase the load on the valve train, and shorten its life.
I went w/ a 272 and 1.52 roller rockers; idles nice, has a little lope to it and pulls hard. I also port-matched the intake, ported the heads and exhaust manifolds... I am pleased with the results... Ohh and this was dun to a 3.1 stroker...
Englle Cams has a good selection for these engines and they're an old company with a good reep. I just put one of their 60 deg 21649H in my engine. My engine has one of our intakes, headers and lots of other mods thus it should work out good.
Hmm nice responses from you guys. For the 272 S did you change the springs?
With the Crane H272, you have to change the valve springs. The stock springs can't handle the lift. However, Comp Cams makes drop-in valve springs that will work (no head machine work necessary).
If I were to do the h260 with 1.52 rollers does that also have to replace springs? Not that I wouldn't mind doing it just need to know before hand to calculate $ being spent on the build.
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08:26 PM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
With the stock valve springs, you'll probably experience coil bind on the exhaust side. I would suggest installing aftermarket valve springs. The Comp Cams ones I listed above can handle up to 0.500" of valve lift.
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08:57 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
Forgot to add: With whatever cam you decide upon, use an oil like Royal Purple's HPS if you want your cam to last. Today's oils are not made for flat tappet lifters, IE push rod engines.
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11:20 PM
PFF
System Bot
Aug 25th, 2011
Raydar Member
Posts: 41129 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Forgot to add: With whatever cam you decide upon, use an oil like Royal Purple's HPS if you want your cam to last. Today's oils are not made for flat tappet lifters, IE push rod engines.
To expand on this... You need to use an oil that includes ZDDP (aka Zinc.) That requirement can usually be satisfied by heavy truck (diesel) oil. ZDDP was removed from most passenger car oils when roller lifters became commonplace, as it is reputed to cause catalytic converters to die earlier.
I used Shell Rotella T in my 3.4.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 08-25-2011).]
Yes... But I was doing a full-blown perforamnce rebuild anyway... Everything in/on my motor is new...
All things being equal; knowing what I know now (did the 3.1 stroker back in 97 when the 3800's were still quite expensive to aquire), I would not do another 2.8/3.1/3.4 build. The cost vs. performance does not come close to what a 3800sc can do STOCK. The only way I can see doing a 2.8 again would be to keep the Fiero original looking while still gaining some more performance...
Just my .01
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10:23 PM
Aug 26th, 2011
Alex4mula Member
Posts: 7405 From: Canton, MI US Registered: Dec 1999
All things being equal; knowing what I know now (did the 3.1 stroker back in 97 when the 3800's were still quite expensive to aquire), I would not do another 2.8/3.1/3.4 build. The cost vs. performance does not come close to what a 3800sc can do STOCK. The only way I can see doing a 2.8 again would be to keep the Fiero original looking while still gaining some more performance...
Just my .01
Just what I wanted to point. Unless you have a lot of money and like to play with mechanics, if I were you I would just replace what is bad the cheapest way and call it a day. Cam and rockers won't give you more than 10-15hp on a good day and if you try to match all that is needed to help the cam you will spend a lot and still not get something great in today's standards. This is from someone who took that road already.
Originally posted by MeAndMyFi: A little early at this point but my stock camshaft in my 3.4pr was wooped. Ofcoarse I "could" buy another for about $60 bucks new but I want more kick for my 3.4....What im looking for is about 1000-5000 powerband.
As some others have suggested, I'd also go either with the Crane H-260-2 or the Crane H-272-2, and given your stated interest in "about 1000-5000 powerband", I'd favor the Crane H-260-2, which has the added characteristic of not having to fool around as much --- if at all --- with the electronics of your Fiero's 3.4L engine to have it running well.
Either of those cams are more aggressive than the stock 2.8L V6 Fiero cam --- which is exactly what the stock camshaft in your pushrod 3.4L is --- IF --- as is typical, it was sourced from the base 3.4L V6 engine from a `93 through `95 Camaro or Firebird.
In the less probable event your 3.4L engine was sourced from GM's 3.4L "crate engine" (instead of a `93 through `95 "Camarobird"), be aware that the specs of that GM 3.4L crate engine's cam are different and more aggressive.
More specifically, while most people probably don't know this, the specs for that 3.4L GM crate engine's cam are the same as those of the Crane H-260-2 cam I merntioned earlier.
Nonetheless, just because of its lower price (and nothing more), maybe another option you'd like to consider is the Edelbrock 3790 cam.
Normally, I'd favor Crane over Edelbrock because Crane has been better known for its cams, whereas Edelbrock has been better known for its intake manifolds. However, at Summit Racing ( http://www.summitracing.com ), a large, discount-oriented mail-order house, the price difference between the aforementioned Crane and Edelbrock cam and lifters set-ups currently appears to be a substantial one.
In any case, my table below displays a side-by-side comparison of specs for the stock 2.8L Fiero and `93-`95 3.4L Camaro/Firebird cam (which is the same cam), the Edelbrock 3790 cam, and the Crane H-260-2 cam and 3.4L GM crate engine cam (which is the same cam).
As you can see, the specs of the Edelbrock and the Crane cams are very similar to one another, so each provides nearly the same increase in duration and lift over the stock 2.8L Fiero/3.4L "Camarobird" cam:
I hope this info has been helpful to you, MeAndMyFi, and regardless of what you end up choosing, good luck to you with your 3.4L engine's camshaft project.
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05:32 PM
Rick 88 Member
Posts: 3914 From: El Paso, TX. Registered: Aug 2001
Good information! I was not aware the crate motor cam was any different than the Camaro/Firebird 3.4 cam. Which cam works best with the getrag manual transmission?
Alright looks like the H260 is the cam I will be going with. Its part number on summit is #253901 for those looking for it. Also is there a kit the includes that cam with new lifters, push rods, hydraulic rockers along with the goods? And does this cam require new springs and if so if they are included in the kit.
Originally posted by MeAndMyFi: Alright looks like the H260 is the cam I will be going with. Its part number on summit is #253901 for those looking for it. Also is there a kit the includes that cam with new lifters, push rods, hydraulic rockers along with the goods? And does this cam require new springs and if so if they are included in the kit.
There may be a camshaft manufacturer who markets such an extensive kit which includes all those parts you mentioned under a single part number, but I'm not aware of any who do that.
More typically, as is the case with the Crane H-260-2, the manufacturer markets a "kit" comprised only of the cam and new lifters. In this case, Crane's part number for their cam-and-new-lifters "kit" is 253902 (instead of the 253901 you mentioned for just the cam). When installing a new "flat-tappet" hydraulic cam (which is what the Crane H-260-2 is), it's critical to install new lifters so as not to wipe out prematurely the lobes of the new cam which come into contact with those lifters.
As for the numbers of the other parts you mentioned, you can check those out on Crane's on-line catalog ( http://www.cranecams.com/50-51.pdf ).
As for the question you had about new valve springs with the Crane H-260-2 cam, they are not required --- technically speaking --- but let's think this through a bit more. Unless you already know your old stock valve springs actually are relatively new and in great shape, do you really want to re-use them with your new cam and new lifters?
I have not even 50 miles on the heads including springs and such so I feel that they are closest to new in my opinion. If they required a stronger spring I wouldn't mind putting new ones in but if I can save that $50 on springs that'd be nice. And for the lifters and such yes I planned on putting new in. As for the kits well new cam and lifter is a start just wondered if it came in an all ready to install deal if not that's just a few extra bucks to spend. I can't wait to actually get a few bucks to work with the engine some. Is there any gear timing sets or is there only chain driven? Just curious
Originally posted by MeAndMyFi: I have not even 50 miles on the heads including springs and such so I feel that they are closest to new in my opinion.
MeAndMyFi, that certainly sounds "closest to new in my opinion" as well.
Nonetheless, even if doing so errs on the side of caution, you may want to obtain another opinion on the valve spring issue for added peace of mind.
In the interest of full disclosure, I now see that Summit Racing on their website says that Crane valve springs (part number 99848-12 for one set of 12) --- for some unspecified reason --- are "required" with the Crane H-260-2 cam-and-lifters kit ( http://www.summitracing.com...y=Brand%7cCrane+Cams ).
Quite frankly, that particular "requirement" for new Crane valve springs surprises and makes little sense to me because the valve springs Crane itself recommends for their H-260-2 cam are the same Crane valve springs they recommend for even their mildest cam for 2.8L through 3.4L pushrod engines. In turn, that mildest cam is fairly similiar in its general duration and lift specs to those of the stock 2.8L Fiero/3.4L "Camarobird" cam, and like your already new, stock valve springs, those particular Crane springs don't even require machining of the heads.
Is Summit Racing in effect asserting that none of Crane's cams for the pushrod 3.4L engine --- even their mildest --- is compatible with your new, (presumably) GM stock, 3.4L valve springs?
If not, that in my opinion seems to beg the question of Summit Racing or of Crane Cams, "Why not?"
The 260 isn't enough to be worth bothering with. The 272 works very well, but I agree you also need to do some head work to take advantage of it. If you don't want to do head and exhaust work, just stick with the stock cam, it is cheaper.
Originally posted by BillS: The 260 isn't enough to be worth bothering with. The 272 works very well, but I agree you also need to do some head work to take advantage of it. If you don't want to do head and exhaust work, just stick with the stock cam, it is cheaper.
If you revisit my first post to this thread, you'll see I've nothing against the Crane H-272-2 cam, but you'll also see that given MeAndMyFi's stated objective, I'd favor the Crane H-260-2, so I guess you and I can "agree to disagree" on this one.
Originally posted by MeAndMyFi:Is there any gear timing sets or is there only chain driven? Just curious
By "gear timing sets" as opposed to "only chain driven," I'm assuming you're referring to what I've more typically heard referred to as "gear drives."
If we're talking about the same thing, these "gear drives," unlike traditional timing chain and gear sets, involve direct contact between two or more gears, and employ no timing chain whatsovever.
Some gear drives intentionally are designed to emit a noisy supercharger-like "whine" while in operation, and others less so. However, since neither was available for my 3.4L engine swap --- or for that matter, anything other than some V8s --- "choosing" between those two types of gear sets became a non-issue for me anyway.
If I recall correctly, what I employed instead for my own 3.4L engine swap of nearly 5 years ago was called a "Cloyes Original True Roller, Double Roller Timing Chain and Gear Set." There are other Cloyes items, but that particular Cloyes set-up, at over $100, isn't cheap, and may well be overkill for my Fiero. However, I needed something that was super reliable, and based on my experience with that set-up in another car that has seen extensive racing over the years, I think those things have deserved their long-standing reputation for being virtually bulletproof.
[This message has been edited by project34 (edited 08-29-2011).]
Alright here's another question what if I just put a stock cam with 1.6 roller rockers instead of a cam will there be any performance increase vs the h2602?
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02:12 PM
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
When I built my 86 2.8 turbo I used a Crane cam and springs and upon installing the springs 2 or 3 bosses had to be machined because the springs were way too high. Measure them carefully before installing.
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02:37 PM
Aug 30th, 2011
La fiera Member
Posts: 2279 From: Mooresville, NC Registered: Jun 2008
To avoid these kind of problems and have an endless array of choices of springs, the heads we offer are machined to accept smallblock Chevy springs. Standard in the heads we offer the Z28 spring which is rated up to .550 lift. I currently have these installed with a 232@.050/ .512 lift cam in our track car.
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10:29 PM
Aug 31st, 2011
Francis T Member
Posts: 6620 From: spotsylvania va. usa Registered: Oct 2003
To avoid these kind of problems and have an endless array of choices of springs, the heads we offer are machined to accept smallblock Chevy springs. Standard in the heads we offer the Z28 spring which is rated up to .550 lift. I currently have these installed with a 232@.050/ .512 lift cam in our track car.
What I was saying is that even high performace springs can be out of spec, IE higher than what those Crane springs were supposded to be; so always check them.
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09:18 AM
La fiera Member
Posts: 2279 From: Mooresville, NC Registered: Jun 2008
Originally posted by Francis T: What I was saying is that even high performace springs can be out of spec, IE higher than what those Crane springs were supposded to be; so always check them.
This is a nice list of cams, I went with a custom grind for my high compression 3.1 build, but these give you some idea of what does what. I think how the engine makes power is as important as how much, like where in the power band you get the power and how wide it is. All depends on how you are wanting to drive it. Larry
MeAndMyFi, I agree with your decision to select the Crane H-260-2 cam:
quote
Originally posted by MeAndMyFi: ...looks like the H260 is the cam I will be going with. Its part number on summit is #253901 for those looking for it.
In contrast, I disagree with the thinking evidenced by your evil twin, who --- besides pirating even the same user name as yours, MeAndMyFi --- seems unusually interested in using 1.6-ratio rockers on something, even if it means abandoning the Crane H-260-2 cam you had selected above:
quote
Originally posted by MeAndMyFi: ...what if I just put a stock cam with 1.6 roller rockers instead of a cam will there be any performance increase vs the h2602?
Employing 1.6-ratio rockers with your current, stock 2.8L Fiero/3.4L `93-`95 "Camarobird" cam, will not enable it to exceed or meet the performance afforded by installing a Crane H-260-2 cam instead.
MeAndMyFi, I hope my responses here have helped clarify things for both you () and your evil twin () who has pirated exactly the same user name as yours: MeAndMyFi.
Yeah I really want to go with that setup. Sounds nice and this would be my first swap so I don't wanna put a whole lot into it just yet till I get things moving again. Is the stock 3.4 with the h260 that mug noticeable over the stock 2.8?
Yeah I really want to go with that setup. Sounds nice and this would be my first swap so I don't wanna put a whole lot into it just yet till I get things moving again. Is the stock 3.4 with the h260 that mug noticeable over the stock 2.8?
If you fix the intake and exhaust? yes.
if you do nothing to the intake and exhaust? not really.
you need to at minimum, port the exhaust logs and Y pipe. port the upper intake and put in a bored Throttle Body. Best would be a better intake and headers. Changing the cam relies heavily on the intake and exhaust being able to breathe. if you do not increase airflow in those you will get very little change out of a cam upgrade.
Cam, valve-train and internal part upgrades all require a free flowing intake system and a free flowing exhaust system to work.
) who has pirated exactly the same user name as yours: MeAndMyFi.
