This morning after taking the Fiero swimming numerous times on the way to work near O'Hare (due to record rainfall) I decided to stay put at a Kmart rather than have to keep choosing between turning around yet again and pushing my luck driving through high standing water. To kill time while the water went down I started shopping all the auto parts and repair shops for best options on a long overdue oil change.

The Kmart had an attached (but not connected) auto service, but they wanted a minimum of forty bucks, fifty for synthetic. I asked did they have the filter and what filter would they use for the synthetic. Yes, they had plenty of "international," straight from China-looking filters available they would use for either regular or synthetic oil changes.

Inside the Kmart there was a sale on filters. By mistake I chose the filter for the Iron Duke because it was deeper than the tiny Fram 3387A I already had at home. I realized the error when I tried to upgrade to the PureOne filter. In comparing the correct small V6 filter with the larger one intended for the four I concluded there was no difference other than the depth. I figured this was probably due to the infamous inadequate oil capacity of the original four and the recall heat shield on the six. My heat shield is missing and I've read here that the deeper Fram PF 52 fits and may actually give better oil pressure in the VIN 9. So I bought the one for the VIN R.

After a nice, hot, quarter-pizza-sized, blue-light-special, 99-cent pizza slice I crossed the parking lot for a McDonald's Dollar Tea. The place was standing room only with families so I sloshed across the street to the Car Quest. The obviously-busy and short-handed guy who finally came out didn't really want to deal with my inquiries. It was twenty-five for plain Valvoline listed on the board, then two other grades before full synthetic, all Valvoline and expensive. I went next door.

NTB was also short-handed and busy, but the guy was very nice and interested in Fieros. He looked up the filter for me and even went back to get one to compare to the Kmart Purolator I was carrying. He said you can get five dollars off the lowest grade oil change by booking an appointment online and presumably more on the higher grades, but they weren't even taking appointments for today. He said the CarQuest filter he brought out was the only one they used for any grade and also for either engine. It was the deeper version, just like the one I had. He recited company policy that they wouldn't install customer oil or filter. I said I might try making an appointment for tomorrow. In the lot behind was a nice Firebird.

It was still overcast and getting muggy, but I could see my old Fiero, with stuff hanging from the nose and windows open for the wet carpets, still sitting in the Kmart lot. I decided to hike up the street to Firestone. Another short-handed busy guy with an XJ in one bay asked, "A what? What year? 85!" He said they did have the filter, but he had to have the online coupon in hand to give me the discount on the sixty-something full synthetic. Half hour wait, forty-five minutes to change the oil. Usually no appointments on the weekends. I went across the street.

Advance happened to have Mobile 1 on sale, thirty-four dollars for five quarts with a fourteen dollar Mobile 1 filter thrown in. I checked the book to see if they had one. Yes, they had the small M 101 for VIN 9 and M 201 for VIN R. Advance also has what they claim are A1 Cardone semiloaded rear calipers for under sixty with a twenty-five dollar core. However when I looked up the part number another store gave me I found Fenco calipers and, unlike the Cardone's they picture no spring, brackets, and arm for the e-brake. I already bought springs from the Fierostore, but the bottom bracket is missing from the driver's side on my rear-brake draggin, no-cables, no-pads-left beast. Besides it sure would be nice to have the whole thing already assembled. Today they looked them up and again claimed they're Cardone and include all hardware. I said order one and we'll see. If it's not Cardone and doesn't include the bracket I need give me my money back. They said fine. I said I just might.

Across the street there was a 10 Minute Lube I'd missed. I don't usually consider JiffyLube and the like because I've heard so many horror stories. They seem to mess up more often than not and charge high prices for extra services they don't actually provide. A company I used to work for sent us to one where they would vacuum with no suction and wipe the windows with dirty rags. They''d shout out, "Fool Service!" A limo service I drove for had to replace suspension parts they didn't lube. A cab passenger said they ruined her engine when it leaked and I've heard numerous tales like that in news features. But one advantage I could see was that they're not going to do a safety inspection and hold my poor Fiero hostage until fifteen hundred dollars are safely in their account in the name of my having good brakes. So I dodged traffic again.

The eager little kids jumped all over me, but they had a lot of oil and service choices including Mobile 1 for sixty-five so I had them look up the filter. Again, yes they had it, a generic filter, same for synthetic and either engine. But they also will install customer oil for six dollars off - a total of thirty bucks.

I said I'd think about it and marched out, but after checking on the not-yet-open O'Reilly's it started to seem like a good idea. If I got the Mobile 1 and filter at Advance it would still be sixty-five, but I'd have the better filter and be done with it without messing around in the wet parking lot trying to pour the old stuff into something and so on. I collected the car, parked it in their lot, and went across the street to get the oil. While I was at it I ordered the driver's side caliper to see if it's what it seems to be. By the way, Amazon has rear caliper kits complete with the yellow plug for three bucks and change.

Another advantage of 10 Minute Lube is they let you drive yourself in. After a clumsy job of that I showed them where to find the engine and they got to work. It really did only take them a couple minutes and their air hose(s) worked well. It was kind of a Keystone cops deal getting the right amount of oil in, but after the larger filter and running it for a few seconds we had one quart left in the five quart jug. Their book showed it should take three and a half quarts. They give you coupons you can use on another vehicle or another service within ten days.

On the way home the oil pressure pretty quickly got back to its usual twenty-five or thirty at idle when hot. After playing around with other stuff for awhile in the parking lot I looked underneath. There was oil or something on the cross member under the filter, but none on the ground that I could be sure of so I chalked it up to the morning's water adventures or oil left over from the filter change.

At dusk I went out and finally set the timing with my new timing light I bought from Amazon months ago. It's the Innova Equus 3555, the one with a dial to set the advance electronically, but not the digital one that you can use as a voltmeter and tach. By the way, it turns out you need that one, the one hundred bucks on Amazon, top-of-the-line, 3551 model, if you have DIS. It also turns out the dial feature is really only intended to check mechanical or vacuum advance systems - if you happen to have the specifications for reference. In other words it's not needed on any stock Fiero, although it does allow you to determine how much your timing is off without reading the little grid. You just turn the dial to get the marks to line up at ten degrees. Whatever you have to set the dial to is how much you're off. Probably not worth the money. It does fit 8.8mm wires no problem and I was able to see the marks in the fading evening light. Those marks clean up nicely with a wire brush. One of those Harbor Freight flashlights comes in handy on this job. I was able to tighten the distributor bolt and place a nice little burn below my thumb using the closed end of a slightly offset box wrench.

At this point it was dark, but I lay down and shined the Harbor Freight flashlight at the new filter and the pavement and cross member under it. It's pretty clear the new filter is leaking. There is oil all around it, including above, lots on the cross member, and some on the ground. Although I've been keeping the top of the engine clean by washing pretty often and torquing the valve covers the bottom and firewall sides are pretty thick with oil of unknown vintage and origin. I had a horrific oil sender leak over a year ago, but the sender looks clean now and until recently, so did the front of the engine. The back side was also dripping, quite possibly from the distributor which was never really tightened after the new module had to be replaced over six months ago. That's why I did the timing tonight. Although the old filter was covered with dirty oil, the new one has a ring of fresh oil all around and below it. I'm afraid that either the M 201, meant for the 4-cylinder, really doesn't fit properly, or the 10 Minute Lube guys overtightened the new filter, messing up the gasket. It's not loose enough that I can turn it by hand either way, but it sure seems to be leaking. I have a new Fram mid-grade 3397A filter, plus two others, including the Purolator one I bought at Kmart today, but if the Mobil 1 is wrong or damaged, how am I going to swap it out without loosing a lot of expensive oil?

Whew...now that was a story.

You will lose what ever oil is in the filer....1/4 of a quart maybe... if you change the filter. You could have an installation issue (too tight, too loose, old gasket still on there), or you have an issue where the old oil is just dripping from when they removed the old filter. Clean and check again and if in doubt, change the filter.

BTW, it is AC/Delco PF52, not Fram 52 (you mentioned this in the article). I believe the PF52 (or equiv) is recommended for the 2.5L, due to the extra capacity. That is what I run.

Overnight it occurred to me it's probably just over-tightened. Maybe if I just loosened it a little and just hand tighten? I know the old gasket came out because I saw it on the old filter. It was all there too. I'm pretty sure they just don't know any better. I asked the guy if the guy underneath the car used a torque wrench. He said, "I don't know what kind of wrench he used, probably just an ordinary wrench." What do you bet he used a filter wrench to tighten the filter?

Thanks for the AC Delco note. No wonder I couldn't find it. Does the issue of using the filter for the four on the six matter?

I personally don't use anything but puralator filters. They have drain back valves and are higher quality than the most of the off shelf China filters you get.

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 07-24-2011).]

Make sure the old filter gasket isn't still stuck to the block. Common problem on the V6.

Oh, and send some of that rain downstate. Been cooking down here (STL area) at 100 degrees for over a week.

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

[This message has been edited by tesmith66 (edited 07-24-2011).]

i would check for the classic double gasket. when you take that filter off.
also it may have been dropped and have a dent in the rim of the filter not putting equal pressure on the gasket.
I've seen this numerous times. or could be a bad metal crimp on the casing. this has happened on occasion.
if you let it sit for a period of time the oil has time to thicken and you shouldn't loose all that much oil maybe a
few ounces and whatever is in the old filter.
its oil and a filter its relatively cheap compared to a whole engine.

While I don't know the difference of filters between dino oil and synthetic, I used a Fram X-tra Guard 3380. (taller or deeper filter)
I don't know the difference between that filter and the one you have, but the filter you purchased may have the rubber seal in the wrong location. Some of the filters look the same at a glance but the seal is in the wrong place.
The 3380's filter is set inside the outer body of the filter by perhaps a quarter of an inch, maybe the filter you purchased to use has the seal directly located at the outer body of the filter. It will screw on but will leak some because of this.

this seems like an excessively complicated post for such a small issue.

if you took your car in for an oil change, its their responsibility to make sure its not leaking. take it back and ask to have the filter changed.

/thread.

quote Originally posted by scott0999: this seems like an excessively complicated post for such a small issue. if you took your car in for an oil change, its their responsibility to make sure its not leaking. take it back and ask to have the filter changed. /thread.

You're right. Sorry. Couldn't sleep. Thought other issues mentioned, like the rear calipers at Advance, might be worth the extended narrative.

You're also right about the taking it back. Checked the warranty on the receipt. Yes, it sure sounds like they will take care of it as long as I don't try to. It doesn't even mention the fact that I supplied the filter.

I'm going to examine the three filters I have, one of which is only intended for the Iron Duke, to see if there are any subtle differences. I have a set of electronic calipers. I'll check with them as well. Then I'll take it back.

Notice in the extended narrative that although manufacturers sell different filters for the different engines and also sell different grades of filters, none of the shops seemed to think it mattered. The more I asked, the more it became apparent they intended to use one generic filter that looked like the Iron Duke filter for either engine and for any grade of oil. The filter I ended up with costs three times the Kmart Purolator basic one. If you're paying sixty plus dollars for an oil change don't you think they should install something better than whatever cheap filter it's convenient for them to stock? Apparently if you take your V6 with recall heat shield installed to these places they're going to take it off and leave it off to accommodate their filter.

Just a note that suprizingly nobody said anything about. I bet he didn't lube the gasket before putting the filter on before cranking her down.common noob problem at those places. And will cause a leak that sometimes wont be noticed right away.

quote Originally posted by MeAndMyFi: Just a note that suprizingly nobody said anything about. I bet he didn't lube the gasket before putting the filter on before cranking her down.common noob problem at those places. And will cause a leak that sometimes wont be noticed right away.

Good point. He was underneath, we were up above with the filter and the new oil, which wasn't even open yet. If he did lube it it wasn't with new oil. I should have lubed it myself.

There is now about a three inch puddle on the pavement under the filter.

I compared the three filters I have using the measuring calipers:

Filters SEAL SCREW
OD ID EXTENSION ID EDGE MIN DEPTH
Parts Plus PH 47 70.41 60.25 1.52 16.55 7.38 3.83 7.89
Fram TG3387A 70.35 62.53 1.29 16.64 7.41 3.52 8.97
Purolator L24011 70.2 61.33 1.72 16.67 4.34 2.24 7.09

You can probably see there is not a lot of difference. On the Purolator, the Iron Duke filter, the screw part is about a millimeter closer to the block. Under the MIN column. EDGE is an initial, less accurate measure of the same thing.

DEPTH is the greatest distance between the block and any part of the connection part of the filter. EXTENSION is how much the seal extends beyond the filter housing.

I think I'll go back up there with the three filters and see if they can get the Mobile 1 sealed better. If not I'll ask them to put the Fram on. It's the Tough Guard midrange filter specified for the V6.


Filters SEAL SCREW
OD ID EXTENSION ID EDGE MIN DEPTH
Parts Plus PH 47 70.41 60.25 1.52 16.55 7.38 3.83 7.89
Fram TG3387A 70.35 62.53 1.29 16.64 7.41 3.52 8.97
Purolator L24011 70.2 61.33 1.72 16.67 4.34 2.24 7.09

Edit" I quess there's no way to format the table on the forum.

[This message has been edited by 85 SE VIN 9 (edited 07-24-2011).]

quote Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: Apparently if you take your V6 with recall heat shield installed to these places they're going to take it off and leave it off to accommodate their filter.

???? Where did you get this idea????? To take off the recall "heat" sheild they would have to remove the front exhaust manifold from the head! That's a major, time consuming, difficult, operation. That sheild doesn't interfere with the oil filter if they use the proper cup type wrench.
By the way the oil filters between the 4 and V6 are totally interchangeable. If you want a GOOD filter go to a reputable auto parts store and get a Wix 51036 filter (Even OReillys carrys them). Both engines NEED the extra capacity filter.
I've run into some real bad Fram filters recently. They are poorly made and their QC in inept/non-existent. One of them cost my friend an engine. They are not worth taking the chance.

quote Originally posted by 2farnorth: ???? Where did you get this idea????? To take off the recall "heat" sheild they would have to remove the front exhaust manifold from the head! That's a major, time consuming, difficult, operation. That sheild doesn't interfere with the oil filter if they use the proper cup type wrench. By the way the oil filters between the 4 and V6 are totally interchangeable. If you want a GOOD filter go to a reputable auto parts store and get a Wix 51036 filter (Even OReillys carrys them). Both engines NEED the extra capacity filter. I've run into some real bad Fram filters recently. They are poorly made and their QC in inept/non-existent. One of them cost my friend an engine. They are not worth taking the chance.

Haynes manual: (under oil change in chapter 1) "Note: If your vehicle is powered by a V6, you may find the oil filter easier to change if the heat shield is removed first."

It's not on mine, but from pictures I've seen it doesn't look like you could get a longer filter under it or install it over a longer filter.

This is only my second oil change, but I've already paid for five filters... I should have bought a K&N; it would have been cheap by comparison.

quote Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: Haynes manual: (under oil change in chapter 1) "Note: If your vehicle is powered by a V6, you may find the oil filter easier to change if the heat shield is removed first." It's not on mine, but from pictures I've seen it doesn't look like you could get a longer filter under it or install it over a longer filter. This is only my second oil change, but I've already paid for five filters... I should have bought a K&N; it would have been cheap by comparison.

It must be talking about one of the 2 smaller heat sheilds. The one at the corner of the cradle that sheilds the coolant hose/ac compressor or the long one that fastens to the original cat. They each come off with just 2 screws/bolts. The corner one needs to be put back on. Many of the ones that fastened to the cat just rusted away. I don't remember the big sheild fastened under the exhaust manifolds as being that much problem when I had my 85GT and 85 SE V6. I've always used the longer filters.

Do yourself a favor next time and just get the Wix filter. I wouldn't pay for the K&N name. Wix is the top quality.

Thanks 2farnorth. I have the corner one. It came off one day on interstate 90, making a terrible noise until I stopped an pulled it loose. I'm still not sure how to reattach it, but at least now I have a clue.

I took the car back to the 10 Minute Lube, but they were closed so I bought a (third) filter wrench that fits the Mobile 1 filter and tightened it. When I got home I got some extensions and tightened it until the torque wrench clicked at its lowest setting of five foot-pounds. Altogether I think it turned another quarter to half a turn. Even if it wasn't lubed when they put it on it must be now.

A couple days, close to a hundred bucks counting everything just for a friggin' oil change.

Adjusting the timing almost ten degrees does seem to help.

Pretty sure if the ring wasn't lubed it'd be pissing all over the place by now so hopefully you got that solved. Normally when you do a filter change getting it hand tight and a quarter turn is plenty enough to make sure its tight. But if you do things like me and have a bear grip I don't need tools to get filters off. If I can't get it off by hand someone has put it on way too tight with a strap or cup. But for your next oil change I think you've learned your lesson - don't let your oil go long overdue - using either filter would have worked fine tall or deep a filter changed when the oils changed does the same job and filters the same - could have saved you alot of grief and $ spent - good things happen to those who wait. One other side note but might not be around your area most oil change places allow their customers in the pit under supervision. Im picky with my fiero and do almost all work to it myself and yet to take it anywhere else for service. Next time ask if you can go under the car and check out what's going on and see what the guys doing it also could help you spot other things wrong that he's doing and point it out early or if something else is wrong with the car. One more thing too some places have cracks to get them out of trouble if something were to go bad if a customer brought in their own stuff and went south.

quote Originally posted by 2farnorth: ???? Where did you get this idea????? To take off the recall "heat" sheild they would have to remove the front exhaust manifold from the head! That's a major, time consuming, difficult, operation. That sheild doesn't interfere with the oil filter if they use the proper cup type wrench. By the way the oil filters between the 4 and V6 are totally interchangeable. If you want a GOOD filter go to a reputable auto parts store and get a Wix 51036 filter (Even OReillys carrys them). Both engines NEED the extra capacity filter. I've run into some real bad Fram filters recently. They are poorly made and their QC in inept/non-existent. One of them cost my friend an engine. They are not worth taking the chance.

or you could go to Napa and get there brand oil filter that Wix makes and save yourself a couple dollars. Oh yeah, their Silver and Gold filter are the same so its a waste of money to get the gold.

yes napa gold, or purolator/pure one filters are nice for the money

I think mobil1 and k&n are overpriced, but thats just me

Wow that was so much to read. That seems like a lot of time you wasted for something simple. So you have the 2.8L V6 engine and you have an oil leak around the oil filter? Yes, as mentioned, they really can't mess up the four cylinder filters as opposed to the V6. They're entirely different. I don't think that is the issue. They likely either did leave the old filter gasket on, or didn't tighten the new filter enough. If you start the car, let it run, and oil is spraying, the gasket doubled up. If it's just a drip, likely not on there tight enough.

I'm honestly surprized you just didn't change it yourself. Fiero oil changes on a V6 are incredibly easy - some of the easiest I've done on a car. Lift the car up, reach up under the car in the front part of the engine in the front of the cradle, unscrew filter, check for old gasket, lube up new one, fill filter with oil, screw on, drain old oil, fill oil into crankcase. With a AC Delco PF52, it'll take exactly five quarts (I throw in Castrol). Can do the whole job in ten minutes in a driveway. For filter choice, Wix/NAPA Gold (both the same) or AC Delco are likely the best choices.

quote Originally posted by Fiero84Freak: Wow that was so much to read. That seems like a lot of time you wasted for something simple. So you have the 2.8L V6 engine and you have an oil leak around the oil filter? Yes, as mentioned, they really can't mess up the four cylinder filters as opposed to the V6. They're entirely different. I don't think that is the issue. They likely either did leave the old filter gasket on, or didn't tighten the new filter enough. If you start the car, let it run, and oil is spraying, the gasket doubled up. If it's just a drip, likely not on there tight enough. I'm honestly surprized you just didn't change it yourself. Fiero oil changes on a V6 are incredibly easy - some of the easiest I've done on a car. Lift the car up, reach up under the car in the front part of the engine in the front of the cradle, unscrew filter, check for old gasket, lube up new one, fill filter with oil, screw on, drain old oil, fill oil into crankcase. With a AC Delco PF52, it'll take exactly five quarts (I throw in Castrol). Can do the whole job in ten minutes in a driveway. For filter choice, Wix/NAPA Gold (both the same) or AC Delco are likely the best choices.

You're right I should be able to do it myself. I actually started on it, but the drain plug wouldn't budge. At the risk of another epic post just let me point out how lucky you are to have even a driveway to work in, a house to keep your tools, let alone a garage, shop, and the equipment and ability to weld, cut, torch, grind, and use things like an air compressor and an impact wrench. It's also nice to have another vehicle or way to get to work. I don't have any kind of shelter or even a way to plug anything in, I need the car to get to work, and I have very little time.

I also don't want to wear out my welcome at the apartment building before I get the big projects done. One day I discovered as I pulled out that a tire was flat, so I pulled back into a front-of-the-building spot and ran for the bus. When I got home they had already written me a nasty note and put a big sticker on the window: "Park in only one space! Also flat tire! Violation!" Every time I work on the car I have to ride the elevator with tools or hike several flights of stairs. God help me if I spilled the oil in the parking lot or tracked it into the building! It seemed reasonable to pay someone the thirty bucks to have them put the oil in.

I saw the old filter with gasket still attached. I think the new filter was just loose. I could turn it by hand while flat on my back reaching up, no jack or jack stands. It's still hard to tell how much oil may have leaked out, but it's still nearly full and there is still a quart in the five gallon jug. According to the 10 Minute Lube reference the engine takes 3.5 quarts. We put in four, including starting the engine to fill the filter. I've driven about sixty miles on this oil and filter so far. I'm hopeful the situation is pretty much stabilized. I haven't seen any more drips or puddles underneath since I tightened it yesterday afternoon.

I even have a dealer coupon for an oil change for less than fifteen dollars, but last time they installed my new oil pressure sender, charged me over sixty bucks and couldn't get the car started. I had to leave it overnight and take the bus. So I'm way ahead this time, right?

Seems to me that in your situation your best bet for this sort of stuff is to find another friendly Fiero owner around there who'll let you pull the car into their driveway/garage to do this sort of stuff.
Glad you got it sorted though, hope it stays OK.

------------------
Dave

www.ltlfrari.com

quote Originally posted by 85 SE VIN 9: .... A couple days, close to a hundred bucks counting everything just for a friggin' oil change....

This is why I do all the wrenching on my car. Chicagoland is full of car clubs if you dont have a place to wrench your own car. Find one and join it if you cant do it where you live. I trust nobody to touch my Fiero.

WEll except for a couple, I'd trust Sinister Performance, BMWGuru, Archie and the guys at the FieroFarm as they have a reputation that glows brighter than the sun.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 07-26-2011).]

As far as I know all Fieros take 4 quarts of oil. Can someone else comment?? Not sure why they are telling you it took 3.5. Seems like that might have been what the 4 cyclinder used BEFORE being recalled for all those engine fires.

quote Originally posted by edfiero: As far as I know all Fieros take 4 quarts of oil. Can someone else comment?? Not sure why they are telling you it took 3.5. Seems like that might have been what the 4 cyclinder used BEFORE being recalled for all those engine fires.

yup, they are probably going by an old data sheet. They should fill it up to what the dipstick says is full.

Didn't sound right to me either, but now the oil is dirty enough to see. It's just a smidgen below full now even though I'm sure at least some got left on the ground, the road, and the block.

Hadn't thought about other Fiero owners, but there is one who gave me his card on the way home from work one day. I'm pretty sure he lives pretty much right there. There must be a dozen Fieros I've seen on the street at least once in the neighborhood. That's one reason I detailed the responses I got; some of them probably know where I'm talking about.

There is a place mentioned at cartalk.com at Addison & Milwaukee in Chicago that sounds good even though it's supposed to be for imports. Anybody know of someone specifically experienced with Fieros near here, NW Chicago, near west suburbs? Summer is half over and I'm just not getting to stuff fast enough. I should probably replace and/or rebuild everything on both sides of the transmission. I'll never do that in the parking lot.