quote Originally posted by nitroheadz28: This is what I meant when its currently not a possibility. Nothing is impossible, and the way you look at it is right- it just takes figuring out... Anyways, this isn't the focus of the thread- that lies on the L61 since it and the LSJ are the only two current engines that can be swapped in and run without changing them mechanically.

I found out some good news regarding the direct injection hurdle that was thought to be insurmountable:

From this site:

"A high-pressure, returnless fuel system is employed for this application. It features a high-strength stainless steel fuel line that feeds a variable-pressure fuel rail. Direct injection requires higher fuel pressure than conventional fuel injected engines, and an engine-driven high-pressure fuel pump is used to supply up to 2,250 psi of pressure. This system regulates lower fuel pressure at idle -- approximately 752 psi and higher pressure at wide-open throttle. The cam-driven, high-pressure pump works in conjunction with a conventional fuel tank-mounted supply pump."
This was just confirmation based off what a GM Master Tech (to whom I was referred by Roger Thelin) told me. Supposedly, all the high pressure fuel stuff (pump, lines, injectors)

Pictured here: (from this site)



are attached to the engine and don't require any modification. The supply pump in the fuel tank puts out a normal 60psi to a seperate pump on the engine which is where the high pressure originates. This and the VVT technology are reportedly both resolvable when using the factory ECM/BCM/Harness from the donor car. The Tech also said that Ryan @ Sinister should be able to tune out the evaporative and security stuff and outside of splicing the harness together, should be as "seemless" as the other two successfully completed swaps (LSJ and L61)

This was on Ebay a week or so ago, although it has ended you might be able to contact the seller for infomation-
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...egoriesQ26Q5ffviQ3d1

Huh... I had always dis-regarded the Ecotech as too technical for my abilities... but this thread almost makes it sound easier than the swap I was gonna do... namely an '87 Duke into my pending '84 :P

I've taken the engine/trans out of a Fiero, and had heads and intake manifold off a couple other engines, but that's the most experience I have with engines. So, if I went ahead, it would be my first swap.

Fosgate, is your stand-alone system compatible with the wonky wiring on an '84? Or, is it completely irrelivent. (As the term stand-alone would imply I guess :P)

What is mechanically required for the swap? From the quick glance at WTFB's thread, it looks like the mounts are really bizzarre... I haven't read the thread all the way, it's late. I'll look at it tomorrow. But I hope most of it won't apply... I really don't want to deal with all those extra electronics components, and the things they require along side them.

If I do do something like this, it must be a manual trans. I like the sound of the pre-05 L61. Simplicity is what I'd be looking for more than anything... Simplicity, and economy... power could always come later.

I tried to find information on the parts offered by Thelin, but neither Yahoo, or PFF searches seemed to give me that much help... does he have a website? Or is it all pretty much, "Call"?

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-01-2011).]

If you are interested in a plug and play harness hit me up. I am interested in doing one.

Any engine swap is hard (or very hard) for the fist guy that does it. All it takes is for someone to do it properly and record what it takes, and hopefully develop and market a kit to do it.

In the MG community, we have plug and play GM 2.8-3.4 kits that make that swap a slkam dunk and quite inexpensive. The guys that are pineering the oddball swaps (Lexus V8 etc.) are out there on their own.

No one has done the development on the Ecotec swap yet, to the point of having a P&P solution, and so this isn't yet an easy swap. Don't do it if you expect it to be easy, do the tried and true 3.4 or 3xxx series swaps.

As the owner of a Solstice, I am a very big fan of the LNF engine. All of the hurdles can be overcome to put one in a Fiero. The accelerator by wire is no big issue - solutions exist. The rest of it is just mounts, mating to transaxle and plumbing, and wiring (easiest to utilize the Ecotec harness). The results will rival many older V8 swaps.

We are talking about an engine that weighs less than 300 lbs. (all alloy) is built like a tank, and with mild tuning puts out a dead easy 350 BHP/375 ft-lbs.

The LE5 is nice, but unless you supercharge it, the prospect for much additional power over the 175 BHP or so is not good.

It would be nice if someone like Archie did up a complete LNF swap kit so we could start using up some of those nice engines from wrecked Solstices/Redlines/Cobalt SS in our old Fieros

Interesting about getting through the fuel pressure issues with the LNF. Hopefully they get cheaper soon...

Twilight- I went with Fosgate's setup, and you actually just reminded me that I forgot to send him the balance for my harness/ECM package . You have more experience than me, I've never dropped an engine/ let alone dropped the cradle on my car and I'll be doing this as my first swap.

Mechanically- You need to get all the engine+ transmission mounts from a Cavalier/ Sunfire that uses the Eco. I've spoken with wtfb a LOT on the issue, and hes given me a lot of tips and advice. He essentially used all of the stock Cavy mounts and just welded up a bracket for the upper mount which probably is the bizarre looking thing for you lol/ small bit of fabrication with the other mounts- nothing crazy. The dogbone mounts at the bottom to the cradle. If you want to have AC, you need to put a notch in the cradle for the AC compressor. Shifting is accomplished by using 2 Fiero select cables and reversing the shifting at the transmission- basically a simple bracket. The F23 has an internal slave, you can get rid of the stock Fiero slave cylinder and splice in some line. Then you have the exhaust, I bought one of the el cheapo ebay 4-2-1 headers for $115 to my door. You need a header that points straight down since the stock manifolds/ most of the upgrade manifolds point straight into the trunk, a small bit of fabrication is required here/ nothing major. Stock axles bolt right up to the F23. Hmm what else, I'm sure I missed something....


If you plan on going standalone, wtfbs thread is irrelevent with anything concerning electrical. Fosgate's system replaces everything for a nice/ clean install and while I don't have it in my hands- it appears that a monkey with a soldering gun could do it haha. I also didn't want to hack up my fuel tank to use a Cavalier fuel pump. or have issues with wiring the stock gauges/ removing all the stock Fiero wiring.

Yes Roger Thelin has a site:

http://www.noidearecords.com/thelinsells/kits.html

[This message has been edited by nitroheadz28 (edited 09-01-2011).]

Well... The thing that sounds hardest about this swap, is welding the new cradle cross-member in place, and that should be a snap... Next I suppose would be the tuning, which sounds like kind of a pain.. The wiring sounds really easy, the actual droppong the cradle is easy, it seems almost all of the parts are made by Thelin... So, yeah, i'd say this sounds pretry easy... The hardest thing may prove to be finding the drive train.

As for the mounts and such, seems like Thelin makes those, so I shouldn't have to worry... I'll still pull them to be safe though. But I should be able to just get the engine, and trans from the donor car, then the electricals from fosgate, the mounts, and shifter hardware from Thelin, and be more or less set!

There will be the little quirks, like the speedo... But everything sounds very manageable.

I'm.not afraid of the work, i'm affraid of the cost..

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-01-2011).]

Costs depends on how much you are willing and able to do...

Personally I'm not buying anything from Thelin, his pricing is fairly high for my taste. I understand he probably doesn't sell many of his parts, but I'm not going to pay almost a grand just to physically mount the engine in my car and have the shifter hooked up.

The shift reversing is a piece of cake, mounts are also simple.. The crossmember, yeah thats a big deal structurally but its not rocket science. This is how much I anticipate spending/ have spent on my gear:

Engine/transmission <60k miles- $650-800
Standalone system+ harness- $450
Header- $115
Misc mandrel bent exhaust piping/muffler/tips- $300-500
Scrap angled/ flat 1/4" steel for mounts/ shifting bracket- $30
High pressure fuel pump, I have the ACDelco EP381- $80
Poly mounts/ ignition coils/ misc engine/tranny related pieces- $150
Aftermarket air filter/ tubing- $50-100
Misc hydraulic fittings/tubings/ coolant plumbing/ etc- $100-150

If you want Thelin's mounts/ shifter brackets- you can expect to spend at least $600.

Thats about it... Ugh I can't wait to finally do this and use the turbo setup I have sitting in my attic

What is up with the fuel pump? I understamd that fuel injection is a higher psi, does the tank have to be dropped, or is there a secondary unit that can be installed down the line?

Is there an available header that won't require me to chop up my trunk?

You do need to drop the tank to install the pump, I honestly don't know how external pumps are set up so someone else would need to answer that.

Yes, thats the type I have.. Losing the trunk is a big no no for me. I'm using one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...&hash=item1c1ad57b1f

There are a few manufacturers of these.. Probably all the same crap. I'm just going to run this for when I do the swap, later on I'll switch it out for some kind of header that can support my turbo setup.

Yup thats what I'm going to do, I want to find an 08 or newer F23 for the higher final drive (3.63) and wider gearing.

Thelin had a header on his site... I don't know how mich it costs, or if trunk modification is still necessary, but it looks like it can be used in conjunction with half the fiero's orriginal system, including muffler. If it's not way out there in price, could wind up money ahead. At least until you upgrade to the turbo... of course, the lack of a cat could potentially be an issue



I think I've got pretty mu ch the same goal as you... Streamlined, and in-expensive for now, but with upgrades for later... $2k is about my target price too.

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-01-2011).]

Ehh I already have this header so I'll work with what I've got. Depending on where I stand next summer after I get back from Europe, theres a high chance I'll get rid of this header and throw the turbo on as I'm doing the swap. I'm not sure how much more it'll complicate tuning since this is my first swap/ first time messing with FI- but it would make sense not to have to go through making a whole new exhaust for the turbo setup.

I'm not planning on running a cat by the way- all vehicles older than 95 here are exempt from emissions testing. Yeah I was planning on keeping it under 2k, obviously with the turbo its a little more $$$ but since I got such a great deal and I have most of the stuff I need- I might as well get some extra ponies out of it.

quote Originally posted by BillS: As the owner of a Solstice

PM sent.

Okay, my curiousity is really piqued by the info on Wikipedia, which states that the Saturn L-series between O3-05 had a High-Output version of the L61, with a 10-1 compression ratio, and a more agressive cam... the information on Wiki states it has the same HP and torque as its brethren though... Would this be GM under-rating their engines again? I know there are LOTS of LS1's and LS2's around here... almost as many as Cavaliers... I think I'm going to aim after this varient...

Plust, it has an air-intake that looks like it would be VERY easily adapted to the FIero...

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-02-2011).]

the only problem with the saturn motors is they are not supported by hp tuners .everyone should stay away from early L61 motors(pre 2004) because they had a failure prone check valve on the cam chain oiler .GM would repair under warranty but there was no recall .even newer 2.2's have bad chain tensioners, you need to buy the latest version chain tensioner (crate engine depot .com) to prevent chain flapping at idle .the stock fiero fuel pump (2.8) when hooked to pre 2006 2.2's only puts out 46 psi at idle .rather than do what i did and put in the cavalier fuel pump , you could put on an aeromotive adjustable FPR for the LT1 .it bolts right up to the ecotec fuel rail .in 2006 the 2.2's started using a returnless fuel system .the old fuel rails from earlier models bolts right on to solve that problem .there is a build thread on locostusa.com where a guy has a 2.4 eco and he is controlling everything , including the V V T and ignition with megasquirt 3 .2007 + L61 motors got the 2.4 bottom end with 58X crank wheels and V V T .my 2004 wiring will not run this motor .

quote Originally posted by wftb: the only problem with the saturn motors is they are not supported by hp tuners .everyone should stay away from early L61 motors(pre 2004) because they had a failure prone check valve on the cam chain oiler .GM would repair under warranty but there was no recall .even newer 2.2's have bad chain tensioners, you need to buy the latest version chain tensioner (crate engine depot .com) to prevent chain flapping at idle .the stock fiero fuel pump (2.8) when hooked to pre 2006 2.2's only puts out 46 psi at idle .rather than do what i did and put in the cavalier fuel pump , you could put on an aeromotive adjustable FPR for the LT1 .it bolts right up to the ecotec fuel rail .in 2006 the 2.2's started using a returnless fuel system .the old fuel rails from earlier models bolts right on to solve that problem .there is a build thread on locostusa.com where a guy has a 2.4 eco and he is controlling everything , including the V V T and ignition with megasquirt 3 .2007 + L61 motors got the 2.4 bottom end with 58X crank wheels and V V T .my 2004 wiring will not run this motor .

Well... I'd be running Fosgates stand-alone setup, so it the HP tuner shouldn't matter, right?

The timing chain, and oiler issues, (Which i was not aware of, so thank you) Can easily be remedied. There's no way in heck I can afford a new engine... Beyond that, sticking with the pre '06 will allow me to use a throttle cable, and not have to worry about the FBW.
http://www.enginebuildermag..._22l_l61_ecotec.aspx

On the fuel side of things... The FPR will allow me to use the stock fuel pump? Or do I still need to upgrade it? It's not that big of a deal I suppose, I'd just rather not mess with it if I don't have to..
http://aeromotiveinc.com/pr...6-gm-lt-1-regulator/

Otherwise... this fuel pump will fit in the stock location without having to worry about chopping up the tank, or messing with the fuel tank gauge...
http://treperformance.com/i...-pump-1985-1988.html

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-02-2011).]

I have the same deal, I'm going to be using a pre 06 engine- I think thats the year they changed the crank wheel and started using DBW.

I figure I might as well do a new fuel pump because lets face it- its only a matter of time before the stocker gives out so I might as well do it to have extra insurance and have it done the right way.

You can still use the newest engines with a TB swap, in my case I had an engine lined up that was pre-dbw when Fosgate was building my setup so he adjusted my package for the older series which I'm fine with- they're everywhere. You can use the stock Fiero throttle cable from the V6 models with the cable actuated Ecotec TB.

If I remember right that TRE is a good pump. Walbros are loud, there are more options out there. I chose to go with a Delco pump cause I knew for sure it would be a drop in and it would have the pressure even if I wanted to boost it to the moon.

one nice thing about the cavvy fuel pump -it is very quiet almost silent .

quote Originally posted by wftb: one nice thing about the cavvy fuel pump -it is very quiet almost silent .

That's what I always loved about the Fiero's pump, was how loud it was... It made troubleshooting why my car wouldn't start quite a bit easier.

Just turn key to run, listen, 'yup, fuel pump's workin'

Curiously.... What are the advantafes of the f23 over the 4spd I have in the '84? I know the f23 has higher tollerences, does it have more economical cruising, and/or better launch? The one I have, i'm pretty sure, is the 'performance' version... I'm not seriously considering keeping it with the ecotec, but i'm curious...

[This message has been edited by Twilight Fenrir (edited 09-02-2011).]

the F23 is the most durable transmission available .its not rated that high torque wise by GM , but it is standing up to a lot of abuse .from what i have heard , it is a stronger tranny than the the 5 speed on the cobalt and hhr ss;s and as strong as the f40 6 speed .as for economy , it will be better than your 4 speed but not as good as an f40 .it is really well suited to my ecotec .

Hold up, the F23 was still being used in 2010- just different final drive.

Heres what I'm looking at to possibly buy for my swap, watcha think?

L61 bored 20 over, painted black w/ new water pump and balance shaft delete, stock crank, eagle rods, wiseco .020" over, 10:1 pistons, arp head studs, stock head, valve cover painted red, timing cover painted black, stock alternator with lightened pulley, stock tentioner painted red, intake w/ throttle body, all misc engine bolts, p/s pump, engine wiring harness and ecu, and manual trans.

Its missing mounts, clutch/ flywheel, ac compressor, belt, and timing chain. Engine/tranny is out of an 04 Cavalier with 32k on it.

He wants a grand for that, I figure that the pistons/rods are $750 so I think its a pretty solid deal considering its basically a new engine. I know those pistons aren't exactly ideal for boost, but it can be done with careful tuning. This guy tells me that he was aiming for 400whp on this setup. Engine is complete but disassembled for the most part.

[This message has been edited by nitroheadz28 (edited 09-21-2011).]