Originally posted by IMSA GT: 5star makes a very good product. I have used them in the past and the finish is very good. Just make sure to prep the part very well and the finished product will turn out very nice.
Just goes to show most folks don't know what they're talking about or what makes a GOOD paintjob. If it shines then it's great. 5star is crap. It's what you (the OP) was asking about in the link near the start of this thread. I told you of my personal very bad experience with it. Then you go out & buy it. Seriously I don't know why I bother. I've been doing show cars for 40 years. I've tried everything, & I've kept up with current technology. The question was "what is best?". Then it's "what is good but affordable?". It's the same questions I've been asking for 40 years, & I've answered them. I give up... ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
5 star is good for the price.. but ive found xtreme is alot better.... as for paint ive always stuck to dupont. but recently been using nason on small jobs. the only issue ive found is you cant use asmuch reducer in it.. if you use half the amount you normally would mix it sprays on soo nice and covers great... i will stick to dupont for my full jobs, but if im just spotting something in nason works great , and seems to match quite well.... anyhow thats just my $.02
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11:09 PM
May 29th, 2011
DLCLK87GT Member
Posts: 2694 From: South Jersey, USA Registered: Feb 2009
Originally posted by Tha Driver: Just goes to show most folks don't know what they're talking about or what makes a GOOD paintjob. If it shines then it's great. 5star is crap. It's what you (the OP) was asking about in the link near the start of this thread. I told you of my personal very bad experience with it. Then you go out & buy it. Seriously I don't know why I bother. . I give up... Custom Fiberglass Parts
Wow, I don’t know what to say about that other than; According to that link YOU gave me there are 2 paint supply places within a reasonable drive of me that sell Dupont paint. 1 place didn’t want to help me and 1 place did so I went there. The guy at this shop said what I got was good stuff and what I wanted under the Dupont paint. I did ask him about the epoxy primer but he said (like others have) it was NOT what I wanted to use, this stuff was. Do I know this guy from a hole in the wall and that he’s an expert on painting cars and everything he’s telling me is the absolute way to go?? No. Did I get overcharged? Probably but at this point whatever. Can I say for certain that what YOU are telling me is the best advice? No I can’t. I appreciate your input but there are what, 10 other people on here telling me that what they do and use is the best and everything else isn’t. Best I can hope for is the guy SELLING me the paint knows what he’s talking about. Other than that it’s a shot in the dark ordering from some online place (which I was going to do but you complained about that too!) Talk about banging your head against a wall…. And this is just PRIMER! I can’t wait until I ask about the color and clear!!!!
Edit to add that the link I posted was for a 5Star paint/clear kit and not primer.
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Originally posted by kikinz24: 5 star is good for the price.. but ive found xtreme is alot better.... as for paint ive always stuck to dupont.
the primer i got IS 5star Xtreme. the paint i'm going to get is the Dupont Chromabase/clear
[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 05-29-2011).]
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10:43 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
Usually the advice from the guys that have been doing this stuff for years is worth more than 20 amateurs that have painted a car or 2. When you get advice from a professional you listen to it more than the guy that's only spouting off because he heard that it's good stuff. I used to offer advice but when I was overridden by several guys 'that heard that this is the way it's done' I quit. I'm not going to waste my time offering my experience to someone that needs assistance and have them listen to someone else....someone that doesn't know crap about painting. You want to use 5star? Good luck with that.
Just to give you my opinion, based on experience, you don't mix brands of materials. Some thinners or reducers used in one brand of primer may not like the reducers in your paint. How do I know that? Experience. You want to tempt fate? Go right ahead. Let us know all about it. Hopefully it will work out for you just fine. If not, it's a total ***** to clean off all that screwed up paint and get it back down to a decent surface to start all over. Experience can really be a good teaching tool.
Keep a Plan B ready to go.....you may need it.
Mark the paint guy
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11:41 AM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
One other thing......I spray PPG Deltron. I spend anywhere from $800-1200 for materials for a standard color paint job. Labor is on top of that. You know how many failures I have had since I started spraying this stuff? None. Zero. Nada. I spend the extra money for a very good quality paint and support materials because I do not want to go through the extra work and cost that you are potentially looking at. Yes, there are those that have purchased really shitty paint and primer and things worked out.....otherwise they wouldn't be on the market. How long are those paintjobs going to last? When you get the first little bump in the surface from something hitting it is the entire area going to release itself from the surrounding area and break off in chunks? Is the primer going to stick? Is the paint going to stick to the primer? Is the area going to bubble and peel? Is the entire paint job going to start to peel at the edges because even if you properly prep everything the stuff just doesn't stick? Hmmm.....sometimes experience has it's usefullness. There is a difference between the textbook expert and the guy that really has worked with the products and guarantees it. I've used crap stuff. There are only a couple of brands of paint I'll spray or recommend. I will not recommend any value line as it's exactly what you are getting......a value paint job. Value brands such as PPG's Omni line or DuPont's nason line are value lines. They are for the used car guys that are turning over a car that's for sale. It's for the cheezy body shop that has clients that don't have a lot of money. The paint goes out the door.....without a warranty. In a couple of months it's not looking the greatest without upkeep. Value lines are not the best quality. Value lines are for the guys that don't want to pay for quality. When I paint a car, I want that paint job to last longer than the owner lives. That's my goal. I use quality materials because I have used the crap and spent more in time and money fixing up a really bad paint job. Live and learn. It's your money.....and time.
Good luck.
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11:57 AM
DLCLK87GT Member
Posts: 2694 From: South Jersey, USA Registered: Feb 2009
Firefox, i know exactly what you're saying but my problem is that buying paint here in NJ is a bit tougher than other states. In MA we got this primer once they use to paint military vehicles, i think it was nuke proof! (good luck getting anything like that in NJ) My sources are very limited to a couple shops and online. Being that i'm no pro and the last time i painted a car was 20 years ago with lacquer I'm sort of stuck. Do i blindly follow the advice of somebody online who says they know what they are doing or do i blindly follow the advice of the guy selling me the paint?? I chose the seller. If i could go online and buy the best "kit" that included what you and the others are saying to get i already would have it in my garage. But it seems that the "good stuff" isn't avalable online (or nobody pointed out where to get it or they did and i missed it) or buy from one of the few local shops who hopefully know what they are doing. If you can show me where to get the best stuff online, please do. Oh and i do not have a grand to paint this $500 car, i have a limited budget. If i had a grand, i would bring it somewhere to get painted and not do it myself...although, i do want to try. And I'm not saying Paul was wrong, far from it. Just again, my sources are limited and the PPG brand he said to get, i couldn't. This shop had a different "epoxy primer" but it was not PPG. if i had gotten that it probably would have been "wrong" too.
Just goes to show most folks don't know what they're talking about or what makes a GOOD paintjob. If it shines then it's great. 5star is crap. It's what you (the OP) was asking about in the link near the start of this thread. I told you of my personal very bad experience with it. Then you go out & buy it. Seriously I don't know why I bother. I've been doing show cars for 40 years. I've tried everything, & I've kept up with current technology. The question was "what is best?". Then it's "what is good but affordable?". It's the same questions I've been asking for 40 years, & I've answered them. I give up...
Just wanted to point out you're not the only person on the planet with painting experience...
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12:46 PM
DLCLK87GT Member
Posts: 2694 From: South Jersey, USA Registered: Feb 2009
OK…so after thinking about this all weekend while DA’ing, wet sanding…and sanding…and sanding ... Paul you were/are 100% right, this sucks and I don’t want to do it again. There are 2 paint jobs on top of the original and even some exposed plastic/SMC so I’m going to trust you and your expert opinion and return the “**** ” that I got Friday. Then I will bite my tongue and go back to the first place that were total A-holes to me and get; PPG primer #DP90LF (1qt?) and the Catalyst #DP401LF (1pt?). 3 simple questions; 1. Should I get the black (90) or grey (50) or does it really matter? 2. Is there anything else I will need to get, flex agent, adhesion promoter, thinner, snake oil, etc, etc? If so, should I get more of something now because I’ll also need it later with the color or wait to get the color? 3. Do you know where I can get a GOOD (Dupont?) final paint/clear online? I don’t want to go through all this and not be able to get the good final paint locally and be right back to where I am now.
Maybe the PPG is overkill, maybe not. but with all the paint and crap that was on the car i want the best primer sealer i can put on it. The black cherry topcoat paint that was on the car had pimples in the clear that went all the way down to the primer/color from the second paint job. Obviously it failed and came up through everything that was on top of it. I don't want that to happen to me. I've got it down to the original color/primer and in spots there's exposed plastic.
Just wanted to point out you're not the only person on the planet with painting experience...
Yeah I know but it seems I'm one of the few that have used damn near everything on the planet, & kept up with current technology. I know that cheaper primers & alternative paints can look good for a while, but it just takes soooo much time to prep a car right i hate to see folks use shtuff that won't hold up for decades. Many, many decades. And if, like most people (me included), you have to leave the car out in the weather, it's even more important. I also get that not everyone can afford to use the top-end paints (me included - I guarantee you I make less money than anyone here). If I were rich I'd use Sikkens on every car I own. But I'm not so I found - through trial & ERROR - that the Nason paints are a reasonable alternative. I have not found any substitute for the PPG DP epoxy primer, though. Nothing even comes close. EDIT: I noticed that Firefox doesn't like the Dupont Nason paint. It's not my first choice by any means, but it is a cheaper alternative for folks (like me) that can't afford the hi-end paints. I like to use Sikkens & a second choice PPG, but they're expensive & I just can't afford them for every car I own. Sikkens costs me about $700 just for paint alone, & PPG about $500. The Nason is about $250 on average for base & clear, & it holds up well over the PPG epoxy primer. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
OK…so after thinking about this all weekend while DA’ing, wet sanding…and sanding…and sanding ... Paul you were/are 100% right, this sucks and I don’t want to do it again. There are 2 paint jobs on top of the original and even some exposed plastic/SMC so I’m going to trust you and your expert opinion and return the “**** ” that I got Friday. Then I will bite my tongue and go back to the first place that were total A-holes to me and get; PPG primer #DP90LF (1qt?) and the Catalyst #DP401LF (1pt?). 3 simple questions; 1. Should I get the black (90) or grey (50) or does it really matter? 2. Is there anything else I will need to get, flex agent, adhesion promoter, thinner, snake oil, etc, etc? If so, should I get more of something now because I’ll also need it later with the color or wait to get the color? 3. Do you know where I can get a GOOD (Dupont?) final paint/clear online? I don’t want to go through all this and not be able to get the good final paint locally and be right back to where I am now.
Maybe the PPG is overkill, maybe not. but with all the paint and crap that was on the car i want the best primer sealer i can put on it. The black cherry topcoat paint that was on the car had pimples in the clear that went all the way down to the primer/color from the second paint job. Obviously it failed and came up through everything that was on top of it. I don't want that to happen to me. I've got it down to the original color/primer and in spots there's exposed plastic.
Might as well get 2 qts. of the primer: one quart of the catalyst will do 2 qts. of primer (2 to 1 mix) & I doubt 1 qt. will be enough. Color doesn't matter. I use the grey primer for everything. Even for black paint so that I can tell when it's covered. Get the 401 catalyst (it's the most flexible) & you won't need any thing else. Car Quest sells Dupont paint you might be able to get it online through them, but I don't know since I don't buy paint online. Have you tried searching? Ask.com & the DMOZ are the best search engines IMO - at least I always try them first. Didn't you say you had some Dupont clear? The pimples were probably the result of using lacquer primer or 2k type primer... Spraying non-lacquer paint over lacquer primer can trap solvents in the primer & cause that (the primer absorbs the reducer & then the paint kicks off & traps the solvent). 2K primer can be mixed too hot & cause it to "cook", resulting in tiny air bubbles. Original color/primer is exactly what you want. Bare material is OK too if you use the epoxy primer over it. At this point it sounds like you need to sand the primer with 400 wet. Put on a nice thick coat on the whole car & sand it using a stiff sponge pad to get everything as flat & smooth as possible. You can use a paint paddle on the really flat surfaces (wrap the sandpaper tightly around the paddle, & tear off the paper as you use it up). The primer will need to dry at least 2 days before sanding it. Good luck, ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Just something else from my decades of professional experience. I find that gray primers tend to have more adhesion problems with paint sticking than red oxide. I had a 2 hour conversation at Good Guys show with reps/ chemists from PPG. In a nutshell, they tell me that the reason is you need to use a bit courser grain paper because the particals in the gray are much smaller than in the red. If you see factory cars/ shop cars with color peeling....its ALWAYS gray underneath. Gray is cheaper to produce and is not as messy. I dont care about being filthy with brown dust. You can also see surface flaws much better in the red than in the gray much like a crap paint job in white looks much better than a crap one in black. Thats just a personal choice and I will agree most shops do use gray. I only use gray for used/cheapo cars that are being repainted in silver and thats simply to reduce my paint costs. Any paint store or sales rep will tell you both the red and gray are exactly alike except the color and they dont know what their talking about. By any means, my ways are by far not the only ones, only whats worked for me for 45 years.
Just something else from my decades of professional experience. I find that gray primers tend to have more adhesion problems with paint sticking than red oxide.
^ Only true of lacquer primer... ^
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Originally posted by rogergarrison: I had a 2 hour conversation at Good Guys show with reps/ chemists from PPG. In a nutshell, they tell me that the reason is you need to use a bit courser grain paper because the particals in the gray are much smaller than in the red. If you see factory cars/ shop cars with color peeling....its ALWAYS gray underneath. Gray is cheaper to produce and is not as messy. I dont care about being filthy with brown dust. You can also see surface flaws much better in the red than in the gray much like a crap paint job in white looks much better than a crap one in black. Thats just a personal choice and I will agree most shops do use gray. I only use gray for used/cheapo cars that are being repainted in silver and thats simply to reduce my paint costs. Any paint store or sales rep will tell you both the red and gray are exactly alike except the color and they dont know what their talking about. By any means, my ways are by far not the only ones, only whats worked for me for 45 years.
You can see flaws just fine in lt. grey primer if you use a black guide coat. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Cool. Thanks a lot for sticking with me on this guys, this has been a MAJOR learning curve for me. I’ll be sure to do a complete thread about the “rebirth of Formula ### ” and put a link to this so others can just READ the back and forth crap and NOT stir the pot again! Luckily the shop took all the stuff back. The guy was really cool about it too, even told me that if I ever wanted to try it again to come on back and he’d help me out. Which I thought was damn nice to say to somebody returning $150 worth of paint because they were going elsewhere. It’s a shame they didn’t have the “good stuff”. I’m going to have my wife search tomorrow and see if I can get the primer/paint online. If it can be found with Google, she’ll find it! If not then back to D-ville but no matter, PPG epoxy it is.
Question, I spry the parts with the PPG and it has to sit for 2 days or so before I can start sanding, that’s fine. But how long before it’s “safe” to touch/move the panel? 2 bay garage, 87GT in one, 64 stang in the other… not much room to work, not to mention the element factor (bugs, dust, who knows what). I don’t want to touch them TOO soon but would like to move them when safe to new drying spot out of the way. (roof of the stang ) but if they must be quarantined for 48 hours so be it, just curious.
Anywho when I get the stuff and am doing something beyond sanding I’ll update. Thanks again everybody including my wife, who was out in the 94* sun wet sanding the nose while I was at work … don’t tell her but I’d rather be at work hehe.
[This message has been edited by DLCLK87GT (edited 05-31-2011).]
In this heat probably an hour before touching/moving the panels. You DO know not to have anything in the vicinity when priming, right? Over spray WILL stick to everything. Move the Mustang out. Throw a sheet or plastic over any toolboxes, parts, etc. Have a fan (small box fan will work) pulling overspray out a window, & filter it with a furnace filter or sheet or something; & check to make sure it's not blowing out anything or that nothing's in the way (or that it's blowing toward any neighbors). Use low air pressure to keep the overspray down. WEAR A GOOD SPRAY MASK. EDIT: In this heat you may be able to sand it in one day. Send the wife down for a few weeks I can use her. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
A search for "ppg automotive paint" at ask.com turned up this link: *** CarPaintOnline.com - Automotive Touch Up & Original Factory Paint From PPG to Dupont, we have the automotive paint you are searching for. . Whether you are looking to restore a classic vintage auto and need hard to find ... carpaintonline.com/ https://carpaintonline.com//index.php *** I can't find the PPG on their site; maybe call them? And this: *** custom auto paint Supplies ,dupont,ppg,matrix,sherwin williams ... Welcome to the Northeast Automotive Paint Distributor Web site. Our goal is to provide you with useful information about our Auto Paint Company that we hope ... www.autopaint18.com/ http://www.autopaint18.com/ *** Ditto on the info. HTH, ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
I think i went to one of those sites, it comes up when searching but according to the site itself, they don't have the paint. I'll have my assistant track it down! As far as painting in my garage, I’m going to set up an area straight out of Dexter, wall to wall, ceiling to floor plastic, sort of like a walk in baggie. I’ll also set up filtered air in and out, don’t want to suck in dust and I don’t want everything outside gray.
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08:33 AM
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
With red, I can see every flaw perfectly without messing with a guide coat. Gray tends to gum up sandpaper, red dont. Lacquer primer can be sprayed over and over all day long with no overspray drying on anything. I usually have one of my showcars setting in my shop while Im working/primering something else. It can be sanded 30 minutes after you spray it. I can primer a hood, have lunch and sand/ paint it right after I eat. Again, just look at any car driving or setting anywhere thats peeling and see what color the primer is...you will never see red oxide. If you do see red, its the body sheet metal rusting, not the primer. I can take factory basecoat color off the new primer on about any new car with a razor blade in 4 foot long strips. I strip a Taurus bare with about $10 worth of quarters at a power car wash. I can respray it with about 30 mins of sanding some minor residue left in a few places. I can argue this stuff over and over but I only do once in a while for someone new. PPG epoxy primer is not gods gift to the auto painting world.
With red, I can see every flaw perfectly without messing with a guide coat. Gray tends to gum up sandpaper, red dont. Lacquer primer can be sprayed over and over all day long with no overspray drying on anything. I usually have one of my showcars setting in my shop while Im working/primering something else. It can be sanded 30 minutes after you spray it. I can primer a hood, have lunch and sand/ paint it right after I eat. Again, just look at any car driving or setting anywhere thats peeling and see what color the primer is...you will never see red oxide. If you do see red, its the body sheet metal rusting, not the primer. I can take factory basecoat color off the new primer on about any new car with a razor blade in 4 foot long strips. I strip a Taurus bare with about $10 worth of quarters at a power car wash. I can respray it with about 30 mins of sanding some minor residue left in a few places. I can argue this stuff over and over but I only do once in a while for someone new. PPG epoxy primer is not gods gift to the auto painting world.
Yeah Roger, we know all that. Lacquer primer dries in 30 minutes & the overspray doesn't stick to anything. It's great for production work. You can strip a car with a razor blade - I can too when they've been primed with lacquer primer (I do it all the time - do you think they use epoxy at the factory?). You can prep a car & shoot it in one day & win trophies with it. We got all that. I CAN tell you ONE thing: you've NEVER stripped a car with a razor blade that's been primed with PPG epoxy primer! ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
I think i went to one of those sites, it comes up when searching but according to the site itself, they don't have the paint. I'll have my assistant track it down! As far as painting in my garage, I’m going to set up an area straight out of Dexter, wall to wall, ceiling to floor plastic, sort of like a walk in baggie. I’ll also set up filtered air in and out, don’t want to suck in dust and I don’t want everything outside gray.
Biggest thing to keep in mind is the more air you move, the more dust you stir up. Also the more filtered intakes you have the less the velocity through any of them (again less dust). I had a friend helping me a while back & he used to work at a street rod shop. They did all kinds of high-end cars (& they looked great). He was completely amazed that I - painting outdoors & in an open shop - got less dust/trash in my paint than they did in their $50,000 paint booth. Just don't breathe any of the overspray & you'll be OK. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
I'll bet a pro could paint a car with rattle cans and have it look awesome. I've even seen on here where somebody painted with a can of Rustolem and a roller and it looked OK. What works for one, may not work for all.
If there was only 1 way to do it, there would only be 1 choice of what to do it with.
Yeah Roger, we know all that. Lacquer primer dries in 30 minutes & the overspray doesn't stick to anything. It's great for production work. You can strip a car with a razor blade - I can too when they've been primed with lacquer primer (I do it all the time - do you think they use epoxy at the factory?). You can prep a car & shoot it in one day & win trophies with it. We got all that. I CAN tell you ONE thing: you've NEVER stripped a car with a razor blade that's been primed with PPG epoxy primer! ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
What makes you think the factories still use lacquer primer. Its illegal to even sell in most states. Ive never said I can prep and paint a car in one day and win a trophy...show me a thread link. Yes I have a whole room filled from floor to ceiling with trophies for my own cars and customers have plenty theyve gotten for their cars Ive painted. I have said I can win shows with lacquer primered, laquer painted/ urathane painted cars. One day paint jobs are cheapy used car ones. I love how you can twist things around to fit your points. You love epoxy primer....thats great if it works for you and Im thrilled it works so awesomely for you. At least do the courtesy of getting your facts straight for everyone. Me, I really dont give a crap. Lets get some novice to paint his car at his house with epoxy and ruin his parents car, neighbors cars, the washer & dryer, lawn tractor and whatever else is in the garage with catalyzed non removable overspray. Ya, thats brilliant.
What makes you think the factories still use lacquer primer. Its illegal to even sell in most states. Ive never said I can prep and paint a car in one day and win a trophy...show me a thread link.
I didn't say they used lacquer primer - I said they DIDN'T use epoxy! I don't know what thread it was in, but you said you scuffed & painted your Dodge the same day & have won trophies with it. EDIT: I've painted show cars with lacquer too that have won trophies - back in the 70's when all you had to choose from was lacquer or enamel. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Have you tried searching? Ask.com & the DMOZ are the best search engines IMO - at least I always try them first. Didn't you say you had some Dupont clear?
If not then back to D-ville but no matter, PPG epoxy it is. 
) but if they must be quarantined for 48 hours so be it, just curious. 
