I've learned there has been at least one other guy (with a Grand Prix, I think) who has swapped in a 4T80-E with a 3800 and got it running (presumably with the 3800 PCM). I don't know the fine details as to what he had to do in the tuning or electrically to get it to work
I know of his configuration well.
The pressure control works as a bolt in, it will just shift a bit hard on stock settings, you could probably turn it down if you would want, but it is still less than half normal at low TPS using mostly stock 65e settings. Getting a controller for some more linear trans pressure control is fairly dumb if you ask me.. I have mine nearly doubled on my fiero right now via line pressure, not solenoid pressure, and it works well at stock settings.
I dont see any reason to run this trans really... Its 80+lbs heavier, and in reality, it is quite hard to break one of the 65es. You are also dealing with a lot more parasitic loss, which is why nobody in the GM drag team would go near one.
I have never broke an auto, even running my factory stock one for many many MANY hard miles over the course of 3 years, with more power than you will ever be able to deliver to one.
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There are morons out there paying thousands of dollars for the last of the fabled racing 1" chains for their 4t65e transmissions.
The 4t80e came standard with a 1" chain and it's $75 to replace because it's very common
I guess I am a giant moron... I mean, its not like it is a RACING chain or anything... I am sure that the stock 1 inch chain in the 80e is roughly 6 times stronger than the 15/16th chain used in the 60e (why it is weaker than the 7/8ths chain used in late 60e).. I mean it is an extra 1/16 of an inch wider than the old 60e chain, and 2/16 wider than the late 60e chain...
... Boy am I a moron for getting a 1 inch chain that anyone could get in a 80e for $70. It HAS to be the same thing..
The pressure control works as a bolt in, it will just shift a bit hard on stock settings, you could probably turn it down if you would want, but it is still less than half normal at low TPS using mostly stock 65e settings. Getting a controller for some more linear trans pressure control is fairly dumb if you ask me.. I have mine nearly doubled on my fiero right now via line pressure, not solenoid pressure, and it works well at stock settings.
I dont see any reason to run this trans really... Its 80+lbs heavier, and in reality, it is quite hard to break one of the 65es. You are also dealing with a lot more parasitic loss, which is why nobody in the GM drag team would go near one.
I guess I am a giant moron... I mean, its not like it is a RACING chain or anything... I am sure that the stock 1 inch chain in the 80e is roughly 6 times stronger than the 15/16th chain used in the 60e (why it is weaker than the 7/8ths chain used in late 60e).. I mean it is an extra 1/16 of an inch wider than the old 60e chain, and 2/16 wider than the late 60e chain...
... Boy am I a moron for getting a 1 inch chain that anyone could get in a 80e for $70. It HAS to be the same thing..
This is exactly what I was trying to say, DH just did a better job of it.
BTW, can you really swap the chain/gears from the 80e to the 60e with no problems? Makes sense since GM is cheap, but I'm was just asking.
[This message has been edited by mattwa (edited 04-20-2011).]
For a multitude of reasons darkhorizon, the least of which being you buying that racing chain. Metal is metal. You can get a custom titanium chain made by an aeronautical company for less than what some morons have paid for the novelty of a chain used by gm racing. There is a great deal more "working room" inside the 4t80e than the 4t65e. To me, that alone makes it worth it.
As for you putting down more power than any of us ever will, I'd beg to differ. I'm starting with a mild build and working my way towards a ridiculous build. You're not the only person on here with deep pockets darkhorizon. Some of us just like to start out low and build our way up.
As for my personal reason for wanting the 4t80e, it would have to do with my driving tastes. Not to mention the final drive ratios available on the 4t80e.
You also failed to address the issue that originally led me this direction. I CANT FIND A DAMN 4t65e in my area for a decent price. Screw paying 600 for a used transmission or 200 in shipping from somewhere else. SCREW THAT.
[This message has been edited by jasonfox (edited 04-20-2011).]
Originally posted by jasonfox: You also failed to address the issue that originally led me this direction. I CANT FIND A DAMN 4t65e in my area for a decent price. Screw paying 600 for a used transmission or 200 in shipping from somewhere else. SCREW THAT.
Really? Wow, that sucks. I could pull them all day from pull-a-part for $70 each.
I guess I am a giant moron... I mean, its not like it is a RACING chain or anything... I am sure that the stock 1 inch chain in the 80e is roughly 6 times stronger than the 15/16th chain used in the 60e (why it is weaker than the 7/8ths chain used in late 60e).. I mean it is an extra 1/16 of an inch wider than the old 60e chain, and 2/16 wider than the late 60e chain...
... Boy am I a moron for getting a 1 inch chain that anyone could get in a 80e for $70. It HAS to be the same thing..
A 1 inch chain from a 4T80-E won't work in a 4T65-E (dunno if that's what you were implying but I'm just throwing that out there in case anyone is wondering).
Call Dave at TripleEdgePerformance and talk to him about using the 7/8" chain in 400+ whp builds. Even though it is the biggest/strongest chain you can still buy new, he's telling people who are using them in 400+ whp build that they'll probably need to replace it about once a season depending on how much they race and how much power they are making. It is just a fact of life. The stronger/more durable 1 inch GM racing chains are no longer available for the 4T65-E; so good luck finding one now that they haven't been produced for a couple of years. Another problem Dave just found out is the only company that was making a special 3rd gear clutch pack (that allowed extra clutch friction plates to fit in there so it would hold more power) quit making them. He just bought up the last remaining stock they had of those kits (and I want to say it was less than 50). After they are gone, they're gone; and you are going to be back to stock which does limit holding capacity of 3rd gear in these transmissions.
There are other stock parts in these 4T65-E transmissions that won't hold up long when subjected to a lot of power. So when you're talking about needing to buy a billet input shaft and other hard parts to be able to just hold the power (and still not having a guarantee those parts won't break), it just doesn't make it very cost effective to use a 4T65-E when you're putting a lot of power to the ground. The 4T80-E shows promise. While it hasn't been used much in ultra-performance applications, it simply has not shown the failures the 4T65-E's have suffered regularly. Yes it weighs more, yes it takes more power just to turn it. But with the 3800, we're not really limited when it comes to power - and I think we can sacrifice the 80lbs. The only limiting factor that has ever been a factor has been the FWD transmissions. And the 4T80-E might solve that problem.
If you're only making 250 - 300whp or so, none of this is really going to be a concern of yours as a well-built 4T65-E will probably hold up just fine for what you're doing. If you're making more power and like changing transmissions every year or two, then this probably also isn't a concern of yours.
But some of us do like to build it right the first time so we don't have to mess with it again. My 4T60-E that I've been running for about 10 years now is getting tired, but it still works. But I know one day I will need to upgrade to something better. I'm sure as hell not going to replace it with a 4T65-E that I'm going to have to invest a couple of thousand in to hold the power I want to make out of the new engine build I have planned for my FIero. And such a 4T65-E build is by no means guaranteed to last as long as a less expensive 4T80-E. Again, assuming the 4T80-E doesn't have a weak link in it that can't be fixed that no one has discovered yet...
So I'm with Jason on this one. If you're planning on making some serious power, might as well go big (4T80-E) or go home.
For a multitude of reasons darkhorizon, the least of which being you buying that racing chain. Metal is metal. You can get a custom titanium chain made by an aeronautical company for less than what some morons have paid for the novelty of a chain used by gm racing. There is a great deal more "working room" inside the 4t80e than the 4t65e. To me, that alone makes it worth it.
Hate to burst ur bubble, but the FACTORY 65e chain is a dual 1/2inch setup.. equaling 1 inch at the end of the day.
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As for you putting down more power than any of us ever will, I'd beg to differ. I'm starting with a mild build and working my way towards a ridiculous build. You're not the only person on here with deep pockets darkhorizon. Some of us just like to start out low and build our way up.
Money is pretty much the last thing you need to make power.. I have spent way way less than half the swaps I see on this forum making stock horsepower.
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As for my personal reason for wanting the 4t80e, it would have to do with my driving tastes. Not to mention the final drive ratios available on the 4t80e.
There are 6 ratios available in the 65e.. I dont really know what else you would want. As far as driving style.. they are both 3 speeds with overdrive.. how could they be any different?
There are 6 ratios available in the 65e.. I dont really know what else you would want. As far as driving style.. they are both 3 speeds with overdrive.. how could they be any different?
If that were the case, then all cadillacs would have 4t65e transmissions instead of 4t80e transmissions. Instead, something was special enough about this transmission that cadillac kept exclusive rights to it until the aurora came out and pontiac wasn't allowed to use it until 2005.
As for the two half inch chains equally one inch at the end of the day, you really... really.... REALLY need to go take a physics class. It doesn't work like that, not even remotely. The tensile strength of the larger chain is exponentially greater than the two smaller chains.
[This message has been edited by jasonfox (edited 04-21-2011).]
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05:39 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
3.11:1, 3.48:1, or 3.71:1... thats the ratios available in the 80... If you think you have 400hp in your 3800 in a "lighter than stock" fiero you really think that gearing is a good idea? Of course I mean the 3.71 , i think i would go with a 2.93 geared 65 just because i would obviously be able to move the cars and drive good... im just confused on why you want to do an 80 instead of the 65?... one stronger part?... Im sure youll figure it out :P Good luck!
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08:15 PM
dhobbs84sc Member
Posts: 407 From: Connersville, Indiana Registered: Jun 2009
Come on folks this is getting kinda nasty and there isn't much more news to be had. Let's quit sqabbling and get to doing something more productive.
------------------ Metallic Blue/Silver 1987 Fiero GT - 2006 3800 Series III Drive by Wire; Ported & Polished by TrippleEdge; 1.7 Yella Terra Full Roller Rockers; VS Cam; Tuning by Darth; WCF CAI & 1 5/8 Stainless Headers, 3" Exhaust, Power Steering & Much More; MSD Coils & Wires; Porsche (Brembo) Calipers on 13" Viper Rotors; 18X8 TSW Indy Wheels; Paint by Phoenix Auto in California City.
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09:54 PM
MountainHiBlue87GT Member
Posts: 369 From: Yavapai County, AZ Registered: Jan 2009
Come on folks this is getting kinda nasty and there isn't much more news to be had. Let's quit sqabbling and get to doing something more productive.
------------------ Metallic Blue/Silver 1987 Fiero GT - 2006 3800 Series III Drive by Wire; Ported & Polished by TrippleEdge; 1.7 Yella Terra Full Roller Rockers; VS Cam; Tuning by Darth; WCF CAI & 1 5/8 Stainless Headers, 3" Exhaust, Power Steering & Much More; MSD Coils & Wires; Porsche (Brembo) Calipers on 13" Viper Rotors; 18X8 TSW Indy Wheels; Paint by Phoenix Auto in California City.
3.11:1, 3.48:1, or 3.71:1... thats the ratios available in the 80... If you think you have 400hp in your 3800 in a "lighter than stock" fiero you really think that gearing is a good idea? Of course I mean the 3.71 , i think i would go with a 2.93 geared 65 just because i would obviously be able to move the cars and drive good... im just confused on why you want to do an 80 instead of the 65?... one stronger part?... Im sure youll figure it out :P Good luck!
A stock 4T65-E (even HD) isn't going to hold up long to 400+ whp. This is a proven fact. The stock dual chain setups are weak and are not as good as the 7/8" chain even though it is smaller than the combined width of the dual chains. The stock input shafts that come in the 65E's are also a weak link. Performance input shafts for the 4T65-E cost about $450.00 just for the part. Unless you've got all the tools to build the trans you're going to have to pay someone to do it. Expect to pay someone who knows what they are doing anywhere from $1500-up for a performance build + parts; give or take. Right there you're going to have probably at least $2500 or more in a transmission that people have still been able to break or wear out in one season when making 400+ whp even when they are built up to this extent.
The 4T80-E doesn't just give you ONE stronger part. Just about everything in the 4T80-E is bigger (and probably stronger) than what the 4T65-E has or what you could even put in a 4T65-E when building it up. I think the 80-E's 3.11 ratio diff would probably work best with an ultra performance application, depending on your engine's power curve. You could size your tires from there to achieve the desired engine RPM while going thru the 1/4 mile traps in 3rd gear. So what's the big deal about the gear ratio?
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Originally posted by dhobbs84sc:
if you want something thats not usually put in them i recommend 6t70 or a 6t75. lol
Good luck with that. First off the 3800 PCM won't control one of these transmissions nor will it communicate with the TCM that comes stock inside these transmissions. Secondly, who has used the 6T70/6T75 in a performance application? I bet less than who have used the 4T80-E in a performance app. So we know even less about what weaknesses the 6T70/6T75's have than we do about the 4T80-E.
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Originally posted by darkhorizon:
I guess my engineering degree doesnt count?
Isn't your "engineering degree" in computer programming? How much mechanical engineering and physics classes were included in that degree program just out of curiosity?
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 04-22-2011).]
