Trueleo Short runner CFM 62.625 114.395 133.6 146.96 146.96
No intake-head CFM 64.295 116.9 133.6 146.96 146.96
On the flow-bench we tested the cylinder head with no intake on it all to get a baseline. We tested the bare cylinder head and intake at 5 different valve lifts in the above listed amounts. We then tested the stock intake manifold with the results above. TAs you can see with the results, our intake showed an improvement stock and will flow as much CFM as no intake on there from .300" lift and above. Pictures on the flow-bench at H.P.WORKS below.
The above nubers will supprt well over 250 HP more 300HP with iron heads.
Sorry about the columns being messed up, thye look good fine when I hit submit reply?
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08:49 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14303 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Trueleo Short runner CFM 62.625 114.395 133.6 146.96 146.96
No intake-head CFM 64.295 116.9 133.6 146.96 146.96
On the flow-bench we tested the cylinder head with no intake on it all to get a baseline. We tested the bare cylinder head and intake at 5 different valve lifts in the above listed amounts. We then tested the stock intake manifold with the results above. TAs you can see with the results, our intake showed an improvement stock and will flow as much CFM as no intake on there from .300" lift and above. Pictures on the flow-bench at H.P.WORKS below.
The above nubers will supprt well over 250 HP more 300HP with iron heads.
The "rule of thumb" regarding 50 CFM on one port being 100 HP applies to EIGHT cylinder engines. When you only have 6 x 150 CFM intake ports flowing air into the engine, then you're only going to get 3/4 the power you would if you had 8 x 150.
And 150 CFM is abysmal, compared to what good heads flow.
You make a fantastic product, but no one can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
Ft Lbs/litre is a good guesstimate of relative VE. The BMW S54B32 makes 270 ftlbs out of 3.2 litres. If you call that 100% (it may be a bit short), then a 250 ftlbs 3.4 at 74 ftlbs/litre is ~86%. 200 ftlbs from a 3.1 is ~76%.
Originally posted by Francis T: Valve lift .100" .200" .300" .400" .500" Stock intake CFM 55.945 106.88 124.415 131.93 139.445
Trueleo Short runner CFM 62.625 114.395 133.6 146.96 146.96
No intake-head CFM 64.295 116.9 133.6 146.96 146.96
For reference what static pressure was this test done at?
Do you have the numbers for each cylinder/runner? Would be interesting to see the flow distribution of the intakes.
------------------ "There is no more formidable adversary than one who perceives he has nothing to lose." - Gen. George S. Patton http://www.flowbenchtech.com
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11:24 AM
engine man Member
Posts: 5316 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
well i just tried those # for flow with my performance trends engine analyzer V3.4 and i used the numbers with the stock intake and it ended up making 262 HP at 5400 rpm with 8 psi boost no inter cooler the cam had 204 intake duration the exhaust is 210 and valve lift .450 and 120 LSA and installed straight up will it be those exact # in real life no but it will be pretty darn near them
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12:00 PM
drebinpk Member
Posts: 577 From: bridgeton mo Registered: Apr 2009
ok so hold on i was always told the cranks on these engine are forged and someone was saying that you can put sbc rods in it how would you go about doing that? cause if so they make some really nice forged h rods for the sbc sires so that should fix any bottom end weakness and as far as people saying the oil system sucks thats not true unless you take them past around 5500rpms
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01:03 PM
drebinpk Member
Posts: 577 From: bridgeton mo Registered: Apr 2009
well i just tried those # for flow with my performance trends engine analyzer V3.4 and i used the numbers with the stock intake and it ended up making 262 HP at 5400 rpm with 8 psi boost no inter cooler the cam had 204 intake duration the exhaust is 210 and valve lift .450 and 120 LSA and installed straight up will it be those exact # in real life no but it will be pretty darn near them
Build it and dyno it then, and let us see.
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01:27 PM
engine man Member
Posts: 5316 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
why should i build it it's not what i want i am just trying to tell the guy what a build program said but it seems no matter what is used to prove or dis prove it will always be you guys are right just because you say so with nothing to prove it it wrong and the bottom end is the same as in the 3.4 DOHC engine same rods same crank and same piston material and Ryan Hess made 417 HP at the wheels on this type of bottom end so rods pistons crank and even the block is not a issue for this power level the only issue was will it flow enough air to make the power at a reasonable boost Level i say yes
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 02-16-2011).]
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02:20 PM
lou_dias Member
Posts: 5396 From: Warwick, RI Registered: Jun 2000
ok so hold on i was always told the cranks on these engine are forged and someone was saying that you can put sbc rods in it how would you go about doing that? cause if so they make some really nice forged h rods for the sbc sires so that should fix any bottom end weakness and as far as people saying the oil system sucks thats not true unless you take them past around 5500rpms
You have to narrow a section of the rods. Unless you want to spin over 7000rpm they aren't worth it though, IMO.
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02:28 PM
PFF
System Bot
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
well i just tried those # for flow with my performance trends engine analyzer V3.4 and i used the numbers with the stock intake and it ended up making 262 HP at 5400 rpm with 8 psi boost no inter cooler the cam had 204 intake duration the exhaust is 210 and valve lift .450 and 120 LSA and installed straight up will it be those exact # in real life no but it will be pretty darn near them
This is under perfect conditions I imagine. Equal length headers with an exhaust system large enough to flow the proper volume. An intake that can flow the volume needed (at 7000rpm no less...) Most likely race gas because you won't do it with no intercooler on pump gas. You also keep skipping over the fact you can't get that power on the stock fuel pump and injectors (which Roger never upgraded).
As I said before, you can get 275hp out of the engine, just can't do it without supporting mods.
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02:50 PM
engine man Member
Posts: 5316 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
sory but your wrong it was 92 pump gas and stock exhaust on the program i started with the 4.3 V6 block then changed the bore and stroke then put the flow numbers in for the heads and changed the valve size kept the rod length 5.7 kept the comression ratio changed cam specs and added a turbo 8 psi boost and it spit out that number
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04:10 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Show me where in the program you input 2.8 V-6 log manifolds.... You can't compare 4.3 exhaust to 2.8 exhaust.
Which T3 turbo did you input for 8psi? Efficiency at that pressure? Any readings on air temps going into the engine? Compressor maps?
Airflow of the stock 2.8 intake manifold?
I like how you started out with a larger engine and gave it a smaller displacement. Did you stop to think the intake and exhaust manifolds and likely stock exhaust diameter would be larger?
And finally, show me your injector flow rate, pressure and stock fiero fuel pump.
Again- and read this carefully... A 2.8 CAN make 275hp, but not with stock exhaust, old inefficient T3 turbo, no intercooler, stock intake, stock injectors and stock fuel pump on pump gas.
well where are all your formulas and data to disprove what i said and yes i am a real engine person went to school of automotive machine Huston TX 1991 so where did you study engine and have a shop and talk all the time to others in the industries and yes you must start out with some engine de-stroke it de-bore it in the program but it is better than your pie in the sky i know just because you say it so you haven't shown one thing of proof it cant be done i have at least used tools to look at it not just say well it cant be done and if this cant make 250 HP then them crappy flowing 3800 heads cant make 400 hp last in knew they only flowed about 180 cfm stock but we all know the 3800 can and dose make it even with bad stock exhaust but any way its up to the guy to build it and he should go see a reputable engine person in his area or talk to a turbo expert who deals in making turbo kits good luck
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 02-16-2011).]
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08:01 PM
Feb 17th, 2011
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
well where are all your formulas and data to disprove what i said and yes i am a real engine person went to school of automotive machine Huston TX 1991 so where did you study engine and have a shop and talk all the time to others in the industries and yes you must start out with some engine de-stroke it de-bore it in the program but it is better than your pie in the sky i know just because you say it so you haven't shown one thing of proof it cant be done i have at least used tools to look at it not just say well it cant be done and if this cant make 250 HP then them crappy flowing 3800 heads cant make 400 hp last in knew they only flowed about 180 cfm stock but we all know the 3800 can and dose make it even with bad stock exhaust but any way its up to the guy to build it and he should go see a reputable engine person in his area or talk to a turbo expert who deals in making turbo kits good luck
Read this carefully so you understand. I've said 3 times now that a 2.8 can make 275hp, that isn't the issue. The argument is that Roger can't make 275hp with the parts he had. An old T3 turbo is too small, the injectors are too small, the fuel pump is too small, the exhaust is restrictive, no intercooler and on "Regular Pump Gas".
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07:24 AM
IROCTAFIERO Member
Posts: 791 From: Montgomery, Al USA Registered: May 2005
Read this carefully so you understand. I've said 3 times now that a 2.8 can make 275hp, that isn't the issue. The argument is that Roger can't make 275hp with the parts he had. An old T3 turbo is too small, the injectors are too small, the fuel pump is too small, the exhaust is restrictive, no intercooler and on "Regular Pump Gas".
One of these days I'll get back to work on my 3.2 turbo and see what it will put out. Have to finish building the flow bench so I know what is happening with porting the heads.
Just for the record, parts will include T3-T04E turbo, 12 lbs boost target with 8.5:1 compression 32 lb fuel injectors, Walbro fuel pump and adjustable FPR W2A Intercooler from a Typhoon Custom intake to replace the mid and upper Fiero pieces Ported lower intake and ported iron heads $59 code on a '7749 ECM to run things
I think this will get close.
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09:12 AM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
Ok, now if we are going to discuss peak power on a turbo motor... we really need to be talking about the turbo and not the heads....
As you can see, this is a CFM vs psi vs efficiency map... we can pretty much discount anything unplotted (as with 87/93 octane, with even great intercooling, is going to cause issues). So, peak flow most 2.8 fiero boost levels is going to be about 225CFM. If the heads flowed 300cfm, this turbo is still going to restrict power output to a total of 225cfm.
Now most turbo calculators will equate 100BHP as 150CFM... doing the math here gives you a total of 150-165 peak BHP output.
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10:13 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14303 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
sory but your wrong it was 92 pump gas and stock exhaust on the program i started with the 4.3 V6 block then changed the bore and stroke then put the flow numbers in for the heads and changed the valve size kept the rod length 5.7 kept the comression ratio changed cam specs and added a turbo 8 psi boost and it spit out that number
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Garbage in, garbage out.
LOL some more...
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10:33 AM
engine man Member
Posts: 5316 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
so you know that is the exact turbo he used with that trim turbine and A/R compressor you do know that they offer more than 1 A/R and T3 just is for the bolt style for the Exhaust for the most part but I cant say that in his case He did or dint make it i dont know every last detail on his engine what i will say is with the corect turbo combo 250HP out of a 3.2 iron headed 60degree v6 with 8 to 10 PSI is not unresnable and i think in the exhaust your biggest retriction is the cat below copied Get the term "t3/t4" out of your head when you are discussing turbine housings. They are SIMPLY T3, or T4, and variations of the two (divided / nondivided).
There are different sizes of each also, based on A/R ratios.
Mitsu has different volute sizes (6cm 7cm 9cm etc)
T3 has different A/R's, and also divided (.64 .82)
T4 has different A/R's, and also divided (.94 1.02 etc)
It just depends on your goals.
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01:04 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Originally posted by engine man: It just depends on your goals.
So just so I understand, you as an "engine man" are prepared to give advice on turbocharged 3.1 or 3.2 engines? Would you say a stock fuel pump and injectors, T3 turbo, no intercooler, 87 octane pump gas, stock intake and exhaust are good advice? In your mind, will this help someone achieve 275hp safely? Or at all?
If you can answer that with a YES then you have no business giving engine advice.
Originally posted by engine man: Get the term "t3/t4" out of your head when you are discussing turbine housings. They are SIMPLY T3, or T4, and variations of the two (divided / nondivided).
LOL somemore... T3/T4 is a T3 turbine section (and center section?) with a T4 compressor section. Did you *really* not know that?
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02:08 PM
engine man Member
Posts: 5316 From: Morriston FL Registered: Mar 2006
the thing is we dont know exactly what they did with that engine like they could run higher fuel press to get the injectorsto give it more fuel or maybe they replaced them i dont know what they did to his engine dont realy care the OP asked if he can make 250 HP with a turbo 3.2 i say yes with about 8 to 10 psi with the right cam and right turbo now if we want to argue over some ones engine we would need to talk to the engine builder to find out all the details of what was done but lets try to help this guy figure out what he needs to reach his goals instead of bickering like a bunch of a holes and not helping the poster at all he asked for help not this BS we all have been doing so if you have something constructive to say on what he needs like a turbo size and cam selection give it to him thats what my first attempt was but it has to get pulled into a pissing match so give him help
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04:31 PM
L67 Member
Posts: 1792 From: Winston Salem, NC Registered: Jun 2010
the thing is we dont know exactly what they did with that engine like they could run higher fuel press to get the injectorsto give it more fuel or maybe they replaced them i dont know what they did to his engine
well thats what thought you wont or cant give him help but i really would like you guys to tell what it will take him to get there tell him a cam a turbo at what psi what rpm it will do it and explain why in detail but i know you wont i dint think you have it in you really try to help the guy plus i want to learn about it you got the balls to post all you detailes info
[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 02-17-2011).]
Originally posted by engine man: well thats what thought you wont or cant give him help but i really would like you guys to tell what it will take him to get there tell him a cam a turbo at what psi what rpm it will do it and explain why in detail but i know you wont i dint think you have it in you really try to help the guy plus i want to learn about it you got the balls to post all you detailes info
Did you even read the thread or what the OP asked? He didn't say "What do I need to make 250hp with a turbo and a 3.2?" What he asked was he has a freshly built 0.030 over 2.8 with forged pistons and a 3.1 crank, and if he straps a turbo on there will it make 250hp and with how much PSI will it need to make it. And the short answer to that question is "no."
The longer answer is "yes, if you spend a lot more money to do all this other stuff too."
Your own answers weren't helpful to the OP's question at all. You were simply jumping in the argument. Not to mention it's very hard to read your posts with all the spelling and grammar mistakes, not to mention the total lack of punctuation.
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06:53 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
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