You could do what one Subaru owner did. He used a supercharger from a M.Benz (not sure what model) that would engage/disengage much like a a/c compressor clutch and also used a Turbo setup. I believe they had it setup to run about 600hp with both. The S/C would disengage once psi hit hit a certain mark and then the turbo would take over. Now I don't know all the details and I'm pretty sure everything was custom done, I only looked at how they controlled the S/C and what the make was. I just thought it was pretty cool for the setup and the AWD would probably make it more entertaining.
IP: Logged
12:31 PM
RotrexFiero Member
Posts: 3692 From: Pittsburgh, PA Registered: Jul 2002
There is a cetrifugal supercharger by the name of Rotrex (yes that's my UN since at one point I owned one) that has an electric clutch. I am not sure if it's still being manufactured simply because I cant imagine many want that option. You can check. The Rotrex chargers are good chargers, but very expensive. In fact SC in general are more expensive, compared to a turbo. When I upped the displacement on my engine, Rotrex was going to give me a charger for free (had to give them my old one), but by then I was set on a turbo. You can vary the boost so easy on a turbo and I wanted that option.
What I find funny is all the people talking about parasitic drag on the engine and how turbos make more power. Do what you want.
Plus those superchargers are HUGE and HEAVY. Both are bad for a little sports car. You may have noticed that the cars you posted are straight line cars, so handling isn't important, and they also have as much room as needed for a big block with a blower the size of Kansas.
EDIT~ to erase pictures
[This message has been edited by TommyRocker (edited 12-24-2010).]
Originally posted by TommyRocker: Plus those superchargers are HUGE and HEAVY. Both are bad for a little sports car. You may have noticed that the cars you posted are straight line cars, so handling isn't important, and they also have as much room as needed for a big block with a blower the size of Kansas.
They also run on nitromethane or methanol usually. And besides, they are only built to drive 1/4 mile at a time. 6000hp is nice to "watch" going down the strip at 300 mph, but on any roads it would not be driveable at all.
IP: Logged
02:51 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14278 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
my wifes slk230 has a "electronic" supercharger on it, but it isnt good for much boost, its a Eaton M60. But you can make power on whatever setup you want, just depends on how "efficient" you want your setup. every setup will have its pro's and con's, you do what is best for your driving style.
Yeah I've junked the V6 idea and am going to start with a 79 Chevy 350 and build it up from there. Cheaper and more power. The clutch is going to be a stage 3. The tranny is still my main concern. A while back another member made mention that the Pontiac G6 Transmission is only rated to max 300hp. This concerns me because the engine is rated at 205 and with the change to a 383 it's going to jump to nearly 500hp
IP: Logged
03:39 PM
Fierobsessed Member
Posts: 4782 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by 86_Fiero: I have no money. I'm just a university student scraping by. Thanks everyone! -Cody
We all dream, but we need a serious reality check here!
Anyway... So what if the G6 transmission is rated to only 300 HP? Getrags are only rated to something like 180, yet some people are pushing 450-500 documented horsepower through them, sometimes they fail, but at 2-3 times its rating! Surely the G6 transmission is FAR stronger then the Getrag. 450-500 HP shouldn't be a problem at all for something as well built as this transmission. There aren't any practical FWD transmissions that are as strong as the G6 6 speed known to us here on this forum.
IP: Logged
04:13 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jim_Martin29 Member
Posts: 702 From: Marina, California, USA Registered: Jun 2010
What I find funny is all the people talking about parasitic drag on the engine and how turbos make more power.
Just remember, these cars (in the photos) are designed to run at WOT only. The engines last a few runs (a mile or two total) and the engines cost a lot of money to rebuild and replace, oh yeah, most run on nitromethane (except the gassers).
Not really reliable for the street.
That said, I'm all for blowers on the street. I'm an old timer from Southern California. I grew up seeing blown hot rods all the time and I love them. I will take a roots blower over a turbo any day (I've had both) as long as I can still afford the fuel a blown engine will devour. Do what you want.
------------------ Jim Martin White '86 GT California
IP: Logged
04:20 PM
Jim_Martin29 Member
Posts: 702 From: Marina, California, USA Registered: Jun 2010
The only advantage to supercharging is instant throttle response.
That is exactly why I like them over turbos, the spool up on a turbo is a pain. Plus, just when you think the tires are locked up to the pavement the turbo will spool up and break traction.
------------------ Jim Martin White '86 GT California
Turbo's provide more low end torque than a supercharger, period.
Can you back up this statement? Not saying I don't believe you, you obviously know more about turbos than me, but my limited experience and all of my reading contradicts you (Unless we're talking about a very high $ turbo setup). When I say low end TQ, I mean 1,500 to 3,000 rpm.
Maybe it isn't a fair comparison, but I've ridden in a Typhoon, a GN, drove a turbo 3800 Regal a couple weeks ago that runs low 12's, and other turbo cars. Even though a couple may have been faster overall, none of them had even comparable throttle response to my 3800SC, and felt much less pleasurable on the street. The Typhoon came closest in terms of low-end grunt.
That being said, I'd just put a stock 3800SC in first. It fits the Fiero very well IMO, and you'll be surprised how scary that piddly little 240hp really is. A modded Series III hits 300hp crank very easily, too. I had crazy plans for my 3800SC, but after driving it, I have no desire for more HP in a car that does something other than race. If you want to blow 15k on a car you can drive .25 miles in occasionally, by all means get a giant turbo and have at it. Judging from what you've said so far, you need another 5 years of experience and several hundred more hours of reading, and a better job to do what you're saying. I mean that in a polite way, I'm a college student in a similar position.
IP: Logged
04:45 PM
AL87 Member
Posts: 2578 From: Bradenton, Florida, United States Registered: Mar 2010
"throttle response" is something that you cant measure in torque..
I think everyone is getting performance confused with driver preferences when comparing turbos and superchargers. A turbo spools to its peak based on engine load, and is then limited off after it reaches full boost... a supercharger needs to be "spooled up" via RPM to make full power/torque.
"throttle response" is something that you cant measure in torque..
I think everyone is getting performance confused with driver preferences when comparing turbos and superchargers. A turbo spools to its peak based on engine load, and is then limited off after it reaches full boost... a supercharger needs to be "spooled up" via RPM to make full power/torque.
I'm not confusing anything.
Which makes more torque at 2,500 RPM, a mildly modded (Ex. a 3.4 pulley and headers, pretty common setup) or a "standard" turbo 3800? According to Justinbart, the turbo makes "more lowend torque, period." I'm interested in the facts behind this, if that's true, I might just gut that blower after all...but every single dyno sheet I've been looking at for supercharged and turbo GTP's says otherwise unless there's a big difference in power period between the two. The only turbo 3800 dyno's I've found that matched 300hp supercharged 3800's for torque under 3,000 RPM's were making 400+ hp. Not saying supercharged engines are always faster, everyone knows turbos make more hp if you want to climb above 350hp, I'm just not sure if the statement "Turbos make more low end torque, period" has a whole lot of truth to it. If it did I'd probably go turbo instead of SC.
[This message has been edited by MadDanceSkillz (edited 01-13-2011).]
I make full boost at 2,500 rpm, if that answers your question. If not then I guess you just have to ask other people that have owned a supercharged 3800 and then went to a turbo 3800. A 3800 is a fairly large displacement engine to begin with (in a fiero), the low in tq is already there. I'll bet I'm building boost at the same time as an L67 but at a steeper incline and the wastegate is opening at ~ 2,500rpm. Of course the L67 supercharger is actually a positive displacement blower so boost is actually irrelevant. I'm sure you can buy a $5,000 Whipple that will throw some serious air out of the gate....what do you want? Nitrous wins over both. The argument can go back and forth all day long.
quote
That is exactly why I like them over turbos, the spool up on a turbo is a pain. Plus, just when you think the tires are locked up to the pavement the turbo will spool up and break traction.
You must be talking about a 2.0l engine that has no balls to begin with or an improperly sized turbo. If you start spinning your tires you are just making more power, or you have shitty tires.
As far as seeing more race cars with big blowers on them, It mostly has to do with the classes they are in. The rule books keep putting tighter and tighter restrictions on turbos. The guys with the most money seem to find more and more power so they have to make it fair somehow.
I get that some might like the throttle response. It is also a cool feeling when the car starts taking off with 1/4 throttle at a progressive rate. Just seems effortless.
I've watched this video at least 50 times, its great.
Our semi-local track has a NoEt event once a month. It's basically a legal street racing scene. Internet racing grudges that get settled at the track with some cash on the line. I suggest going if your local track has it, quite entertaining. Its mostly all motor guys, some may spray. A few turbo guys will show up with 17" drag radials. Its funny watching these big block-slick-traction bar-sissy stick-guys ask for room against normal street looking cars (if you didn't know better) I never see any supercharged/blower guys out there for some reason. I few cobra mustangs but they are just having fun. ------------------ Turbo3800E85 5spd spec5 11.53@126.7
[This message has been edited by Justinbart (edited 01-14-2011).]
Mind if I see your dyno sheet? It must look a lot different than the other ones I've seen, now I'm interested.
It mostly depends on turbo size.. Justins turbo is only a 500whp turbo.. with VGT... so it is going to make boost earlier than most.
At the end of the day, 99% of your "turbo lag" can be fixed with your left foot on the brakes prior to launch. I really dont see what is hard to understand about the fact that the turbo is not tied to engine rpm, and that alone is why it can make more power at low rpm.
It mostly depends on turbo size.. Justins turbo is only a 500whp turbo.. with VGT... so it is going to make boost earlier than most.
At the end of the day, 99% of your "turbo lag" can be fixed with your left foot on the brakes prior to launch. I really dont see what is hard to understand about the fact that the turbo is not tied to engine rpm, and that alone is why it can make more power at low rpm.
I understand boost does not DIRECTLY correlate to engine RPM, but higher boost is made at higher RPM's in almost every scenario. Most people don't want to brake and rev for power every time you want to have just a little fun at a stoplight when they could just hit the gas with the SC and instantly rip...I want a turbo so bad for the sheer simplicity and much shorter performance parts list needed to make X horsepower, but somebody has to figure out a way to get the SC throttle response and effortless low-end first. Nobody will want an SC over a turbo then. Like you said though, nice thing about a 3800 turbo is it makes it to 3 or 4k in 1st pretty quick on just displacement.
I'll probably keep the SC for a DD, but if I ever have the money for a track car it will be either 3800 turbo or 4.3l marine block with Syclone/Typhoon heads and a ridiculous turbo. You can get a super tough 4.3l shortblock that can withstand serious boost for less than 2k. The GMC Syclone (A TRUCK!) ran very close to 13 flat in the 1/4 STOCK. Crank up the PSI a little, out it in a Fiero, I wonder what it would do... Maybe an interesting idea for the original poster, the 4.3l is your 350 with 2 less cylinders, a cheaper and easier install, and fits much better. Almost as much power potential with boost. There are several 1,000+ HP Syclones/Typhoons.
Here are a couple videos. These things weigh a LOT more than a Fiero, and look how hard they launch. How's that for low end torque?
Turbos are not RPM dependent on spool, they are exhaust energy dependent, which means you can use a torque converter, clutch, tuning tricks, brakes... it all makes it so you cant really put a number on "spool times".
quote
, but somebody has to figure out a way to get the SC throttle response and effortless low-end first. Nobody will want an SC over a turbo then. Like you said though, nice thing about a 3800 turbo is it makes it to 3 or 4k in 1st pretty quick on just displacement.
I have been building supercharged fieros/grand prix's for 5 years now... The fact that you have never driven a turbo 3800 and telling ME how they work, seems a bit foolish.
[This message has been edited by darkhorizon (edited 01-14-2011).]
Turbos are not RPM dependent on spool, they are exhaust energy dependent, which means you can use a torque converter, clutch, tuning tricks, brakes... it all makes it so you cant really put a number on "spool times".
I have been building supercharged fieros/grand prix's for 5 years now... The fact that you have never driven a turbo 3800 and telling ME how they work, seems a bit foolish.
Are you seriously claiming RPM has nothing to do with exhaust energy? THAT seems a little foolish...
I understand how a turbo works. If you're telling me boost has nothing to do with RPM's you obviously don't. By your apparent logic, an engine at WOT puts out the same amount of exhaust energy at 1,000 and 6,000 RPM's, and turbo lag is a physics mystery. I shouldn't have to tell you this, even if I don't always agree with you I know you generally know your stuff, and rarely do I call BS on your words, but come on. If you don't believe me, have your special friend hold down the throttle at 50% in neutral while you're holding your hand outside the tail pipe. It will be come much more forceful at higher RPM's. Can somebody else in the turbo world chime in and tell me if I'm wrong here? Will, Matt Hawkins, Buehler, Buehler...
I prefer supercharged 3800's to turbo 3800's, sorry. It's personal preference, I realize turbos are faster in the 1/4, don't care. SC has its merits, and I'd be willing to bet they suffer a lot less down time for maintenance.
Good luck in your quest for speed, OP, and seriously, look into the 4.3l turbo. I'm surprised it hasn't been done before (That I know of). I do know of a naturally aspirated one that runs 12's, saw it in person in Anderson. If you search on here there's more info on it.
[This message has been edited by MadDanceSkillz (edited 01-14-2011).]
How many naturally aspirated V8's do you know of running better numbers than that (EDIT: In Fieros)? Not that many, and that's the only performance 4.3l setup I even know of in a Fiero (AND it's not even fuel injected), we'd see better numbers if there were more. Hot Rod magazine built one to close to 400hp without much work, and almost all of the 350 SBC internal performance parts can be used in it, so performance parts are cheaper than they are for most engines.
I think we all still want to know about this turbo that can spin as fast as you want at any RPM.
[This message has been edited by MadDanceSkillz (edited 01-15-2011).]
Originally posted by MadDanceSkillz: How many naturally aspirated V8's do you know of running better numbers than that?
I know plenty, but they aren't in Fieros.
But who cares? This thread was over a while ago, and wasn't about V8s, though the OP apparently decided he's going to get a ridiculous amount of power from a 350 SBC in a Fiero.
