quote Originally posted by SMTHGT: What are othe signs of 'limp mode' for this engine..??

Not sure if this is true in all cases, but in limp mode, mine would:
Start out in 2nd gear.
Idle very high. ~1200 RPM or so.
Run very rich.
Have little power. (I suspect the ignition timing is "fixed" to a certain value. Never actually measured it with a light, though.)
Would occasionally backfire through the throttle body if I hammered the gas.

------------------
Raydar
88 4.9 Formula IMSA Fastback

Read Nealz Nuze! Praise the Lowered!

Not trying to hijack but could you elaborate on the O2 sensors. I am pretty sure I bought an AC delco because everyone said not to buy a Bosch and those were the options when I went to get one. I get absolutely terrible mileage (10-12 mpg) with a 4spd. Thing is the first week I had it together I got about 20-24 highway for a good 300 mile stint and then it dropped to where it is now and has stayed there, I have new injectors btw and that didnt change anything.

quote Originally posted by Dizzixx: Not trying to hijack but could you elaborate on the O2 sensors. I am pretty sure I bought an AC delco because everyone said not to buy a Bosch and those were the options when I went to get one. I get absolutely terrible mileage (10-12 mpg) with a 4spd. Thing is the first week I had it together I got about 20-24 highway for a good 300 mile stint and then it dropped to where it is now and has stayed there, I have new injectors btw and that didnt change anything.

Just be sure to physically check the sensor itself. It can say bosch on it dispite being in an AC Delco box. I've had it happen 3 times now. Also had Rockauto and several local auto parts stores and dealerships check their stock. All Bosch sensors in Delco boxes from what I can find. Speaking specifically of Delco part number 213-322.

Every Bosch sensor I've used has worked OK for a month or two then fails. They switch very slowly and start to read lean causing a rich condition. The first thing to go is usually the mileage. Very annoying. I just installed my 5th sensor a couple days ago. A wagner this time. Waiting to see how it does over time. So far it already works WAY better then bosch.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-23-2010).]

Just for grins I put my original ECM back in the car. I switched out the EPROM from my replacement ECM to my original ECM . E PROM is an ATTT , as best I can tell it is for a 1990 Deville. Started right up, scans and idled nice and smooth like a Cadillac. I didn't get to take it for a drive as the Golf Cart is behind the Coupe right now. It has a flat tire now. Grandchildren? I will get it out for a quick once around the neighbor hood tomorrow.

quote Originally posted by josef644: ... E PROM is an ATTT , as best I can tell it is for a 1990 Deville. Started right up, scans and idled nice and smooth like a Cadillac.

If it's from a '90, I'm surprised that it didn't create its own set of issues.
The '90 Deville tranny was not (I don't believe) a 4T60E. I believe it was a 4T60.
Not sure about the ATTT, but the Code mask for the ATTL ('90 4.5 Deville) is the same as the AUMF ('91 - '92 Allante) which used an F7 tranny.

So... What's my point? Don't be surprised if something still doesn't work correctly. Hope I'm wrong, though. Good luck.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by josef644: This one? Lifted this from M_M's wiring thread. It is the Park Neutral switch wiring and the range connector wiring sockets I could not locate earlier. you arent undertsanding what i am saying. if your harness is correct for a 91 deville, and you have a 94 deville tranny, it will start out in 2nd gear, because the locations of the shift solenoids ina 94 tranny are in different locations. if yoru car is actuallu starting out in 2nd gear, the tranny might be an issue. I just went out and re checked the round transmission plug. It is wired correctly for a 91 Deville. Also re checked the range switch connector, also correctly wired

you arent undertsanding what i am saying. if your harness is correct for a 91 deville, and you have a 94 deville tranny, it will start out in 2nd gear, because the locations of the shift solenoids in a 94 tranny are in different locations on the round connector. the ecm pin locations are the same though. if yoru car is actually starting out in 2nd gear, the tranny might be a '94. you wouldnt have noticed it because yoru old harness was wired correct on the transmission end for a 94...

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Not sure if this is true in all cases, but in limp mode, mine would: Start out in 2nd gear. Idle very high. ~1200 RPM or so. Run very rich. Have little power. (I suspect the ignition timing is "fixed" to a certain value. Never actually measured it with a light, though.) Would occasionally backfire through the throttle body if I hammered the gas.

Thanks JOE, RAYDAR, STICKPONY, and everyone for letting me jump in here....
Now, symtoms above...
Mine does all mentioned except has a smooth 600-800rpm idle, and only backfired once when hammered...

Now, so you all can see what i have so maybe you all will see something that doesnt look right, heres a link to it when it was for sale before I got it.
He said 'PETE' in Canada did the harness, but I cant find out who did the reburn... I am hoping you did it Stickpony.. www.fiero.nl/forum4/HTML/051427.html
Thanks again Joe for letting me jump in here.. :thumbs

[This message has been edited by SMTHGT (edited 12-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: you arent undertsanding what i am saying. if your harness is correct for a 91 deville, and you have a 94 deville tranny, it will start out in 2nd gear, because the locations of the shift solenoids in a 94 tranny are in different locations on the round connector. the ecm pin locations are the same though. if your car is actually starting out in 2nd gear, the tranny might be a '94. you wouldnt have noticed it because yoru old harness was wired correct on the transmission end for a 94...

Aaron, I have used this ECM in my 88, and the wiring harness out of the 91 Deville with this transmission. It was working fine. I have verified the harness wiring for the transmission. It is fine. I do not have a 94-95 transmission. I have a transmission that has worked correctly with the 91 Deville wiring set up. I was told that it came out of a 93 Deville. Everything has functioned as it was supposed to prior to the harness switch out.

I have understood what you have said. You haven't understood what I have said.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: If it's from a '90, I'm surprised that it didn't create its own set of issues. The '90 Deville tranny was not (I don't believe) a 4T60E. I believe it was a 4T60. Not sure about the ATTT, but the Code mask for the ATTL ('90 4.5 Deville) is the same as the AUMF ('91 - '92 Allante) which used an F7 tranny. So... What's my point? Don't be surprised if something still doesn't work correctly. Hope I'm wrong, though. Good luck.

I realized this last night as I was trying to go to sleep. 90's had the 4T60 transmissions.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 12-24-2010).]

Well, I dont know why the link wont work... It was BUBBA G that I got it from in Oklahoma...

quote Originally posted by SMTHGT: Thanks JOE, RAYDAR, STICKPONY, and everyone for letting me jump in here.... Now, symtoms above... Mine does all mentioned except has a smooth 600-800rpm idle, and only backfired once when hammered... Now, so you all can see what i have so maybe you all will see something that doesnt look right, heres a link to it when it was for sale before I got it. He said 'PETE' in Canada did the harness, but I cant find out who did the reburn... I am hoping you did it Stickpony.. www.fiero.nl/forum4/HTML/051427.html Thanks again Joe for letting me jump in here.. :thumbs

the 4.9L caddy motor, when fully warmed, should not have a fluctuatng idle between 600-800.. it should have a solid idle somewhere in that range. solid,meaning it does not fluctuate more that 25 rpm.

backfiring means iehter yoru timing is off, or you arent firing on all cylinders.. start basic engine troubleshooting

quote Originally posted by stickpony: the 4.9L caddy motor, when fully warmed, should not have a fluctuatng idle between 600-800.. it should have a solid idle somewhere in that range. solid,meaning it does not fluctuate more that 25 rpm. backfiring means iehter yoru timing is off, or you arent firing on all cylinders.. start basic engine troubleshooting

Im sorry, I wasnt clear....
It idles like you are talking about (within 25)... I said 6-800 because im not sure the tach is correct, but it doesnt flucuate at all....

I FINALLY GOT A REPLY.... HE NOW SAYS THE TRANS IS A 91 and PBJ did the harness and the reburn....

quote Originally posted by stickpony: gotcha.... what is the broadcast code on your transmission? the broadcast code will be on the back of the tranny, on a stamped plate near the passenger's side axle and the VSS...

The letters all came off the transmission tag when I pressure washed it two years ago.

quote Originally posted by SMTHGT: I just went and pulled the door off the 2240 and on the back of the blue chip someone wrong in black.... 4.9 2.93 E Anyone recognise these markings like this..??

nope, not my handy work..

tell you what though, if you want to send me your chip, along with $15 for my time, and the pay for the return shipping( $6 ), i'll take a look at it and tell you if the programming is correct on it. i can also test the chip in a car for you to see how it drives...

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 12-29-2010).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: an ATTT prom is for an '89-90 PFI seville, allante etc...the ATTT wont let you unleash the power of your engine, nor will it control your transmission. for a 91 deville setup, the following broadcast codes will work: BBXF, BWYA, BWYH, BWYJ, BWYN, BWXZ

Just wanted to save this information on the broadcast codes.

I will have a BWYH here in the next day or so to replace the one I suspect has gone corrupt. BWYH was my original EPROM. A member here has mailed me one to try out to see if all is well again.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 12-29-2010).]

quote Originally posted by josef644: Just wanted to save this information on the broadcast codes. I will have a BWYH here in the next day or so to replace the one I suspect has gone corrupt. BWYH was my original EPROM. A member here has mailed me one to try out to see if all is well again.

here's to hoping... feel free to hit me up if it doesn't work, i'll help you brainstorm...

Aaron
561-201-6191

Thanks Stickpony, I might just do that. Im not doing anything right now, as I am doing other ummm, thinbs right now to it...
Thanks again Joe for letting me borrow your thread over the holidays...

SmoothGT

quote Originally posted by SMTHGT: Thanks Stickpony, I might just do that. Im not doing anything right now, as I am doing other ummm, thinbs right now to it... Thanks again Joe for letting me borrow your thread over the holidays... SmoothGT

no problem.. did i send you my address in a PM? i can't remember

quote Originally posted by stickpony: no problem.. did i send you my address in a PM? i can't remember

No, Please sent it to me that way I will have it... Thanks again Aaron for all your help.

quote Originally posted by SMTHGT: No, Please sent it to me that way I will have it... Thanks again Aaron for all your help.

you've got mail....

Stickpony is fixing me up a chip. Thanks Aaron
-Joe

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 12-31-2010).]

I got the chip from Stickpony just now. Put it in the car, unplugged the VATS bypass and it fired right up. Temperature outside is a very cool 34*F right now. My golf cart has a flat tire and is parked behind my Coupe. I will move everything around in the garage tomorrow and take a good test ride. I have no trouble codes today except the standard code 52 which means the battery has been disconnected. It will go away on its own after a few miles drive at normal operating temperature.

So far So good.
-Joe

On the road again... I just can't wait to get on the road again....

Congrats Joe. Glad to see you're getting it figured out. You'll be terrorizing the Texas Honda's again very soon!! They're already shaking in their boots.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 01-11-2011).]

Well Good News at last. Limp Mode is gone. Stickpony's chip cured all the ill's. I have the famous '4.9 monster launch' from stop again,. All four gears are engaging, as well as the TCC is locking up. Talk about TORQUE!!!!!!!

I did run into a bit of a snag, but I do not think Sticpony's chip has anything to do with it. I have installed a second EPROM I got in the mail yesterday, and the 'hitch' is still there.

"HITCH" After doing the idle learn procedure I went for a drive. Drove to get fuel first. About 3 miles or so away I could feel a surge coming and going with the engine. I noticed that the scanner was showing -34.6*F. The normal temperature would come back, and the surge would disappear. After adding 4 gallons to the tank, I pulled the coolant sensor connector and added it back to the sensor. I then drove around 10 miles or so and all was fine again. Until it started the -34.6*f reading again.

Back home I started wiggling the wires attempting to find a place that would duplicate the problem. I couldn't make it happen. I am planning on ordering a new AC Delco coolant sensor and AC Delco TPS connector. If I have to I will add new wire all the way from the ECM plugs to the sensor.

I am just a few inches short of calling this swap finished.

Great ride today

Thanks Stickpony, and everyone else for all the help
-Joe Crawford

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 01-11-2011).]

quote Originally posted by josef644: Well Good News at last. Limp Mode is gone. Stickpony's chip cured all the ill's. I have the famous '4.9 monster launch' from stop again,. All four gears are engaging, as well as the TCC is locking up. Talk about TORQUE!!!!!!! I did run into a bit of a snag, but I do not think Sticpony's chip has anything to do with it. I have installed a second EPROM I got in the mail yesterday, and the 'hitch' is still there. "HITCH" After doing the idle learn procedure I went for a drive. Drove to get fuel first. About 3 miles or so away I could feel a surge coming and going with the engine. I noticed that the scanner was showing -34.6*F. The normal temperature would come back, and the surge would disappear. After adding 4 gallons to the tank, I pulled the coolant sensor connector and added it back to the sensor. I then drove around 10 miles or so and all was fine again. Until it started the -34.6*f reading again. Back home I started wiggling the wires attempting to find a place that would duplicate the problem. I couldn't make it happen. I am planning on ordering a new AC Delco coolant sensor and AC Delco TPS connector. If I have to I will add new wire all the way from the ECM plugs to the sensor. I am just a few inches short of calling this swap finished. Great ride today Thanks Stickpony, and everyone else for all the help -Joe Crawford

i think the liklely culprit will be the coolant temp sensor, but double check the continuity on those wires going to the ecm from the coolant temp sensor. the TPS is likely to have nothing to do with it, as long as the isc motor is in good working condition and calibrated and the tps is calibrated to 0.5 volts at close throttle plate...

it is also possible you have an air bubble in the system, Or it is possible the reman computer you have is bad, since both chips repeat the problem..i highly doubt it though...if the problem persists after changing the coolant sensor, try and burp the air out of the cooling system when the engien is cold in the morning before you start the car.....


good luck Joe.

quote Originally posted by stickpony: i think the liklely culprit will be the coolant temp sensor, but double check the continuity on those wires going to the ecm from the coolant temp sensor. the TPS is likely to have nothing to do with it, as long as the isc motor is in good working condition and calibrated and the tps is calibrated to 0.5 volts at close throttle plate... it is also possible you have an air bubble in the system, Or it is possible the reman computer you have is bad, since both chips repeat the problem..i highly doubt it though...if the problem persists after changing the coolant sensor, try and burp the air out of the cooling system when the engien is cold in the morning before you start the car..... good luck Joe.

Just ordered a new AC Delco Sensor and a new connector. I think these on the engine came from NAPA, but realy don't remember now. I will check the coolant at the filler in a little while. When it is only 39 outside, it will cool down pretty quick.

Aaron I have that second working chip now. And I did switch ECM's to see if that was the problem. It was there with both ECM's and both chips. So it is a wiring or sensor problem. I am thinking that when the ECM looses the readings, it defaults to -34.6*F. It always goes to exactly that reading before going back to normal readings, in the neighbor hood of 184*F.
-Joe

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 01-11-2011).]

Its likely a wiring issue. Hitting -40 degrees indicates a very high resistance reading from the sensor...


Could be an internal short in the sender but I would suspect the wiring first.

Well it got up to 42*F outside a while ago so I went back out to the garage. I am thinking I have located and fixed the break in the circuit. I had added a new connector to the harness for the coolant sensor. Injection Technology had used a connector for the Cadillac,(no gauge), so I added the one for my engine and the gauge as Mickey_Moose posted. One of the solder joints I had made was bad. I put new solder joints and heat shrink on all three wires. I can't get the -34.6*F to come back again.

Went for a nice 30 mile trip. Smooth as glass. Got into closed loop mode. 1800 RPM is 70 MPH. I am gonna calibrate the TPS and re do the idle learn tomorrow. All systems are GO right now.


YE HAW!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 01-11-2011).]

Woo hoo! I new you'd find it Joe!

Ugh. Weather here sucks this morning. We started getting freezing rain last night at 5:00. Now there is a 1/2" sheet of ice on everything. To make matters worse its only just starting to melt so now its all a 1/2" thick layer of "wet" ice. Almost fell on my ass just trying to walk down the stairs. Its kind of neat how the trees look like they were dipped in glass though.

And of course I lost the clutch in the 4.9 last night. Time to order up Rodneys master and slave. I'm tired of replacing the crappy aftermarket ones every 6-12 months.

Congrates.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Ugh. Weather here sucks this morning. We started getting freezing rain last night at 5:00. Now there is a 1/2" sheet of ice on everything. To make matters worse its only just starting to melt so now its all a 1/2" thick layer of "wet" ice. Almost fell on my ass just trying to walk down the stairs. Its kind of neat how the trees look like they were dipped in glass though.

...well, you could have the weather that I am getting (converted over to °F and highlighted some spots):

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-12-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ...well, you could have the weather that I am getting (converted over to °F and highlighted some spots):

No takers here!! I was born in Alaska so I've spent more time then I care to admit in weather like that. I'm getting too old for that crap!! Thats why I live it Oregon now. When it comes time to retire I want to be one of those old farts that spends his winters in Arizona and summers in Oregon.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: No takers here!! I was born in Alaska so I've spent more time then I care to admit in weather like that. I'm getting too old for that crap!! Thats why I live it Oregon now. When it comes time to retire I want to be one of those old farts that spends his winters in Arizona and summers in Oregon.

I hear you - if it wasn't for my cushy gooberment job I would be in warmer climates right now (actually spent the holidays in Hawaii and it sure was tough to leave there)...

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 01-12-2011).]

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Congrates. ...well, you could have the weather that I am getting (converted over to °F and highlighted some spots):

That is horrable weather Supposed to get up yo 48 *F here today, It is 22*F on the back porch right now.

[This message has been edited by josef644 (edited 01-12-2011).]

Weather like that is why I live in Texas....
Congrats Joe....