My bother-in-law blow up is engine in his 2002 grand am with a 3.4 in it. I have a complete 3800 supercharged engine out of a 1999 grand prix. Will it bolt up to the 4t45e transmission and will the engine fit? has anyone done this before. thanks

Well, I know in the 92-98's they had a 3.3 90 degree which is basically the same block as a 3.8. Whether it will be a big hassle to mount in the later chassis I don't know but I imagine it will fit.

I suspect that it will bolt up to the tranny. The 3.4 and the 3800 have the same bolt pattern.
I'm not sure on the fit in the car. The 3.3 and the 3.8 are about the same physical size, however.

Having said that, I suspect that the 3800SC has enough stones to shred the 4T45E in fairly short order.

The 3.3's were from 1989 to 1993.

For the 2002 you'd need to fab up some engine/trans mounts (be a good idea to switch to the HD 4t65e) custom axles and a rewired harness and pcm from the donor car. Lots of other little things.. it's really no different than any other transverse motor type of swap.

it's not worth the hassel.


the BCM will not talk to the 3800 PCM so you will have to run dual PCMs. and even after all that work the track times of the compleated ones where never that much faster then bolt on cars.

also you will have to make custom engine mounts nothing fro a L67 would work the closes set up would be one from a H-body.

then you will have to do something with the transmission. the 4t45 fails with stock power from a 3400.

Probably plenty of work, but an interesting idea. Because of the axle situation and the hubs / stubs, you'd need to use a non-HD version of the 4T65E, and because of the easy power from mild mods to the L67, you'd need that 65E "built".
You're then going to need drag radials, BFG makes some 225/45R17s that seem like a great starting point. Just DON'T try them on ANY snow / ice.
Since you're looking at a trans swap anyway, might as well jump on the new F23 bandwagon. It'd reduce the front end weight about as much as the iron-headed L67 will add to it. That supercharger may not fit under any of the available hoods. Maybe custom bodywork there.
Then you'll need a larger cat-back exhaust, or the L67 won't do much better than a well-modded 3400.
Piggybacking 2 computers is nothing to cry about, I'd guess Ryan can hook you up. www.gmtuners.com, IIRC.
Using the '99 engine in the '02 car is technically illegal, but if that's an issue, use an '02 L67 computer, since the engine itself had no emissions-related hard-parts changes in those years, AFAIK.
Keeping the 4T65E, you could use a 2.93:1 setup like most of the Chev and Buick-installed L67s, to help with traction, or 3.29:1 like most of the Pontiac-installs, but you could go 3.69:1 for best acceleration on drag radials. The 3400 guys aren't doing this, they're just running their stock 3.29:1 gearing. Another advantage for you.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-06-2010).]

quote Originally posted by 01GPGT: and even after all that work the track times of the completed ones where never that much faster then bolt on cars.

I find that hard to believe.... A bolt on grand am maybe runs 14.0.... A few tweaks on a 3800 and the sky is the limit... as well as the motor being 100x more reliable.

You could do it but itts definitly not worth the hassle if he wants more power thant the 3400 delivered buy a 3500 from a g6 or impala or even a malibu. Swap the electronic tb for a manual. And add a crank sensor on the harmonic balancer The rest is plug and play with a grand am harness. Delivers 215hp rather than the 185hp 3400.

Thanks guys for the input. I really do love a challenge. I think i have him talked into geting the 4t65e transmission. It would be more work but worth it.

Don't hold me to this. But I swear I had a neighbor with an olds alero (same car as the grand am) and it had the 3800 na. You may want to do some quick research. If that chassy did come with the 3.8 then you may be able to source some mounting parts a compatble bcm. Again I'm about 70 percent sure about his alero but I could be mistaken.

------------------
1984 Base Coupe Red Stock MY8
1984 SE Black Stock

2002 Grand Prix GTP 40th Anniv. Stock

You can't fit an M90 under the hood of an N-body. There is no reason you can't run a 3800, but there is not a lot of room, it is not like a Fiero engine bay. Odd as it seems, the Fiero has a lot more room to work with.

the 1998 model year for olds INTRIGUE was offered with 3800s. It is a uniquely rare car that is a pretty cool package.

I was told that there is a tuner shop here in Dayton, OH that drops 3800sc motors into Grand Am's pretty frequently. Heard it from a guy that swapped a 3800sc in his Fiero. He had them do the tune on his swap.

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel

Ya his name is mike miller Milzy Motorsports I know him personally and he does good work, http://milzymotorsports.com/ give him a shout he may be able to give you soem pointers

From what I understand, the 3300 (LG7) has the same engine mounts as the S1 3800. They are almost the same engines with a smaller bore/stroke and the 3300 has a lower deck height. I have never tested this 1st hand but just read it somewhere. How different are the S1 vs S2 mounts?

[This message has been edited by katore8105 (edited 01-07-2011).]

Read this thread.

The thread was closed because the two pushing the swap ran their mouths a bit too much. Thus far they've gotten as far as polishing the Grand Am headlights. You'll notice said party is an experienced swap member here. I don't think the swap would be a walk in the park.

I dought I will ever do this swap, becouse for one, He just lost his job and two, I would rather install a 3500 and beff it up. It would be nice to have the 3800 in the grand am. Thanks

quote Originally posted by L67: Read this thread. The thread was closed because the two pushing the swap ran their mouths a bit too much. Thus far they've gotten as far as polishing the Grand Am headlights. You'll notice said party is an experienced swap member here. I don't think the swap would be a walk in the park.

Hmm... The headlights were replaced not polished.

I think a better route for the GA would be a 3400 dohc or a turbo 2.0, judging by the length of time they've run in your cars, I think they would be a viable and reliable swap option.

Paul, it's probably best for you to put more effort into building a running car, or maybe something that will ever be fast (<15's) before you start running your mouth to people who have already done what you will never do. If you need a hand bring the car by the shop and I'd be happy to get it going for ya.

OP, All the info needed to do the swap has already been gathered, since the oem 3400 and trans is still going, there was no rush to attempt the swap. We figured out what BCM would be needed, pinouts to swap in etc, if you're interested in that info PM me and I'll be glad to share if you're seriously interested in the swap.

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 01-08-2011).]

My mistake.

The thread was closed because the two pushing the swap ran their mouths a bit too much. Thus far they've gotten as far as "replacing" the Grand Am headlights. You'll notice said party is an experienced swap member here. I don't think the swap would be a walk in the park.

quote Originally posted by L67: Why don't you post the information on the public forums, maybe even go back to the Grand Am forum and re post all of the great information you deleted. A little generosity goes a long way.

No.

Well, I think you're a pretty good example of lost humanity. It's your right to monger all the information to yourself, if any of the information you have is valid at all - taking into account how you were going on about "the data is nothing without the legwork" only last week. I know you have a lot of insecurities about being the best at what you do, which is why you lashed out at people when I was around you in Charlotte, and obviously here in this very thread towards me (you probably haven't changed much). I think I've made it clear before, but just one more time for posterity; I'll have to decline your offer for help, I really think I know more about the car than you do, and even if you had something I wanted, I don't really care to support you or your business in Charlotte.

Have a nice life.

LOL. Paul, you've been around me a handful of times in your life, stop acting like you know me, who I am, or what I do. Now get back to building your 2.0T so the grand am has something to run against.

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 01-08-2011).]

The way you act around other people and the (insulting) things you say are very foretelling. You're an unusually easy book to read. I built the 2.0T Fiero for a reason, and the reason wasn't to race your falling apart Grand Am.

quote Originally posted by L67: I built the 2.0T Fiero for a reason, and the reason wasn't to race your falling apart Grand Am.

The grand am is falling apart, most cars that are daily driven with 180k will do that. If you want, you can borrow some of the oil pressure from the 3400, even at 180k and falling apart it's got more than that 2.0 of yours.

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 01-08-2011).]

quote I suppose you were never exposed to sarcasm in your sheltered life. The grand am is falling apart, most cars that are daily driven with 180k will do that. If you want, you can borrow some of the oil pressure from the 3400, even at 180k and falling apart it's got more than that 2.0 of yours.

Heh, I'm quite familiar with sarcasm. I'm also quite familiar with with the statement you made at gaownersclub before being censored:

quote Originally posted by blacksaleen95 This car is my DD pos, I don't give a crap about hp. Both of us have cars with 500+ hp, the GA is the last thing I care about going fast.

So I actually read deeper into what you were saying, and understood it to be derogatory, on par with what what you normally say. Not that I care, but since it's rebuild, the Fiero's engine makes all the pressure that it needs at idle. I don't think you really have a grasp on what you're talking about.

quote Originally posted by Trudgn ...Coming in here and belittling the 3400 which (probably) powers the majority of the cars on this site isn't being very respectful to the membership and is flat out rude to those members who are pushing their 3400's.

You do the same everywhere you go. Your reputation will soon precede you, especially when it comes to your business - Ballertown.info, Jim Rufini.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 01-08-2011).]

you two should probably take your fight some where else. Not in someone else's thread . THANKS

Thanks for the hits on my site!

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 01-08-2011).]

Do not worry about my thread, I have kids that act the same way.sounds like a couple kids arguing.

I've always wanted to do an L67 Cavalier Never thought about the Grand Am

Not that this topic belongs on a Fiero forum, but for the record I did want to add some info seeing as how I've had experience with swapping 3800's into other GM cars.

The 02 Grand Am's instrument cluster (like other GM cars of this era) got much of its information it needed to operate its gauges from the Class 2 data line - fed by the PCM. I have found that 3800 PCM's don't seem to like to work with instrument clusters from cars that did not come with a 3800. While I haven't actually tried this in an 02 Grand Am, I did try it in a cousin of the Grand Am and it didn't work.

Having said that, as Isolde said you could always do the piggy-back PCM thing: run both the 3800 and the stock 3400 PCM, sharing critical sensors and adding others that can't be shared. The 3800 PCM will control the engine (and possibly the transmission), and the 3400 PCM can be there to feed the needed data to the instrument cluster and other on-board modules as well as control the transmission if that's the way you want to do it.

Is the 4T45-E trans a poor choice for use with the 3800 engine? I think so, it isn't very strong, mechanically. I think even a stock 3800 SC would make quick work of it.

Putting all of that aside, you might actually be able to run a 3800 SC engine using the 3400 PCM (and 3400 programming). But you'll need to fabricate and run some kind of custom 7x crank sensor, the 3400's coil pack, possibly a different cam sensor, and do a ton of tuning. Might not be worth the cost if you have to pay someone else to do the tune and make your conversion parts for you.

-ryan

------------------
OVERKILL IS UNDERRATED

Custom GM OBD1 & OBD2 Tuning | Engine Conversions & more | www.gmtuners.com

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Not that this topic belongs on a Fiero forum, but for the record I did want to add some info seeing as how I've had experience with swapping 3800's into other GM cars. The 02 Grand Am's instrument cluster (like other GM cars of this era) got much of its information it needed to operate its gauges from the Class 2 data line - fed by the PCM. I have found that 3800 PCM's don't seem to like to work with instrument clusters from cars that did not come with a 3800. While I haven't actually tried this in an 02 Grand Am, I did try it in a cousin of the Grand Am and it didn't work.

I'd like to add to Darth's post and say that I have tried the GA cluster with the 3800SC PCM when I did my dash swap. It does not work. The cluster worked fine in my Montana but not the 3800SC.

Bob