My car won't idle right now. I do know its running really rich, I have a new chip coming to help solve that. I have a stock engine, egr is deleted. Most of the time it will idle when I'm coasting, but soon as it get down to 5mph it cut out. I think its killing it self by being too rich, is that possible? If I hold the gas down just a little it runs fine. MAP sensor is only about a year old, so is the ignition module.

Anyone have any ideas?

Well first you say it's running really rich, and your getting a new chip to solve that (??) and then you ask if its running rich.

So are you looking for someone to say it's not running rich?

Is it loud, or does it sound lopey, even without a cam? I used to have a GT that behaved similarly to what you say, even after a new EGR and tune-up. There was a huge hole in the front manifold. Could be a similar problem for your perhaps?

quote Originally posted by dobey: Is it loud, or does it sound lopey, even without a cam? I used to have a GT that behaved similarly to what you say, even after a new EGR and tune-up. There was a huge hole in the front manifold. Could be a similar problem for your perhaps?

So if there was a "huge hole" in the manifold, ah didn't you notice it?

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: So if there was a "huge hole" in the manifold, ah didn't you notice it?

When did you ever notice a V6 front manifold to be easily visible. It just sounded like the PO put a hot cam in it, and I had to hold idle at about 1200 with my foot. When I had to get the car re-inspected for smog, then yeah, I noticed it when I went to have the new exhaust put on. But I didn't have $900+ to pay to have it fixed at the time, so just sold the car instead.

Now that new cat back exhaust that I'd gotten for that car, is on my current GT.

That loud noise coming from the front of the engine should have been a clue I'd think

I wrote that post running out the door.

Well what I was asking is if running too rich would cause the car to not to be able to idle at all. I know if its rich it won't idle well.

Anyhow, the car died on me a little while after I made that post. Had to get it towed home. I was just driving along and then it lost power, regained power, lost it again. So I ended up pulling over. Oddly the car would idle now, but soon as I pressed the gas the car would start to die until I let off the gas. So I got out and played with the throttle body, if I slowly opened the throttle I could get it rev all the way up. If I opened the throttle any quicker it would just die.

So I took a guess at it being the MAP sensor. Got to a parts store and came back and replaced the MAP. Car started up once and had the exact same symptoms. Then it died, and I couldn't get it started again. So now its sitting on the street outside my friends house.

Btw, the reason I have a chip at all is I have the 7730 ECM. But I have had the car running for a year on that ECM and chip. I recently found out I had leaking injectors so I just replaced them, that's when it started to run richer then before.

I've pulled a spark plug and its white, and dry. So that leads me to think I'm not getting fuel. How would I go about checking the fuel pump? I think I can check if the pump is getting 12v at the OBD1 connector. But that doesn't tell me its actually working, I don't think.

Any ideas I'll go try. Would really appreciate the help.

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[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-26-2010).]

Funny, thanks for the link. I do have a full gm service manual at home, but like I said, I'm not at home, nor am I close to home.

Oh - and check your fuel pressure - that's my guess is what's up if it idles ok, but has no power past that. It also would be good to try swapping your ICM. ALWAYS use thermal paste under your ICM when swapping.

And since you can download it as many times as you want, you can have it at as many places as you need.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-26-2010).]

Haven't had a chance to check anything yet, its pouring rain right now. But I figured I would see if it would start. Its starts but won't idle like before.

Since I'm not at home, I don't have an array of tools. Definitely no fuel pressure gauge.

I'm working on getting my laptop working so I can hook up to my ECM and see if I can see something. Of course it had to stop working yesterday too.

EDIT:
Well it only started once. I haven't got it to start again. I have my laptop hooked up. I don't see anything out of place but I'm also not too sure what to look for.

[This message has been edited by bnevets27 (edited 06-26-2010).]

Good luck on the hunt for idle problems.. I'd check the fuel pressure ( weak fuel pump perhaps ) also on the 2.8 they had those hard plastic vacuum lines that can be all so brittle, crack and still look good.

On a side note, I don't know why people have to heckle people who ask for help on the forums, that to me is just in bad taste. if you need a answer, ask the questions... If you need to reply with arrogance and try to put people down while doing it, just move on to another question.. Let us know what ya find out with it..

I do hear the hum then a click, I think what I'm hearing is the fuel pump. The click sounds like its coming from behind me, in the drivers seat. From the haynes manual that should be where the fuel pump relay is.

As far as pressure, the gas shoots up about an inch and a half. I don't know if that is enough. I wish I had a fuel pressure gauge here but I don't. I did check my fuel pressure a few weeks ago before I changed my injectors and it was fine then.

Can't get the car to running again so I don't know what the oil pressure was at. It didn't trip the low oil pressure light though, so I assume I had pressure.

Haven't had any codes thrown. I've reset the ECM. I'm thinking about resetting the IAC, apparently I should have done that when I replaced the injectors, so I have read. When I had the upper intake manifold off last summer to clean the injectors I did a good cleaning of the IAC. On my ALDL log, it says the IAC motor is moving threw its steps.

Hadn't been able to get a ride to get a new ignition module or anything yet. I don't have a wrench big enough to take off the IAC, or a multimeter. I would have at least had tools at home. :x

The ignition module is a new AC delco, mid last summer, rebuilt the whole distributor. It has the thermal paste on it and even a heatsink I added, I also have my truck fan to come on at a lot lower temp then stock, so it SHOULD be in good shape. Needle on the tach moves when cranking

MAP sensor is new as of yesterday, I don't think the old one was bad. TPS is only 2yrs old. Both sensors check out ok in the ALDL logs.

Been over all the hoses and wires many times. I have less vacuum lines then stock, only 2 plastic lines and they are in good shape. No EGR, no throttle body heater.

That's currently where I'm at. The rain isn't helping ether.

You have LOW fuel pressure.

There should be about 40 psi of fuel. That would be about the pressure of the water in your house. The squirt of fuel should hit the deck lid.

You need to troubleshoot your fuel delivery system BEFORE just replacing the fuel pump. The Haynes manual download you received free with the "GO-PACK-GO" promo code has a good section on it. Chapter 4 Section 3 - Fuel Pump Testing on page 132. If you have any questions about it come back and ask.

Hey jsketcham, I assume the heckle remark is pointed at me, but I honestly don't know if its referring to the hole in the manifold, or the free download bit. Just wondering which one? I did like the SonyCard thing at the end the best.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-26-2010).]

Well I got it started. Put a little gas in the throttle body and it started. Still won't really idle. It idled for a bit once, but it was running really rich and smoking, then it just choked to death.

I got a ALDL log of it running. The oxygen sensor is saying its really rich, makes sense. (a high value on the oxygen sensor is rich, correct?)

Well heres the ALDL log if someone can spot something.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mwtwjagddwm

well, I'm not into flaming but being sarcastic with people who may or may not know how to ask the proper question with proper terminology is less than a desirable trait.
You responded:

\
Well first you say it's running really rich, and your getting a new chip to solve that (??) and then you ask if its running rich.

So are you looking for someone to say it's not running rich?

so how did that post really help him?
Then you jumped on Dobey by saying:

So if there was a "huge hole" in the manifold, ah didn't you notice it?
I think he would have figured this out had he been able to see under the plenum. I dunno but that just seemed to be uhm less than social..

That loud noise coming from the front of the engine should have been a clue I'd think.
Maybe he doesn't have the worldly experience that you have? can't assume that everyone has as much knowledge as you would think.

You then said...
Congratulations! You are the 100,000 person asking that quesstion!
Since your the 100,000 person asking about fuel pressure reated issues you have won a FREE Haynes Manual Download!!!!

I don't think he really would have asked had he known the answers, but on a good note you did offer a free download which was nice.

All in All the idea of being sarcastic even in jest to a person who clearly was asking for help seemed to be less than polite on a family based forum. That is all i'm saying.. you did this to me on a few topics where i asked some questions as well. Had I known the answers I would never have asked the questions. Enough I guess, I have loved the positive people who jump in and help people with less knowledge. that is how we all benefit I just felt that when people ask for help and get heckled about what they ask or how they ask it seems to betray the spirit of the forum...

One of the re-occuring problems I see of posters is that they 'pre-determine' their problem and then look for eveidence to "prove" their pre-conclusion. That kind of troubleshooting will lead a person into circles and never fix the problem.

I saw this in the origional post and felt the need to point it out. I saw that as the first step in solving this problem.

Since the spark plugs are running white, indicating its normal to lean - I have yet to hear a reason why the OP thinks his car is running 'really rich' I think what he is doing is thinking running rough = running rich. Sounds to me like it's running too lean caused by the low fuel pressure. The puff of smoke obtained when pouring gas into the intake would say nothing other than it was rich from having gas poured into the intake.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: I guess I could be more polite and just not give any help.

Or... you could offer help and be polite.
I know it's tough, especially for people that know everything and like to make someone else feel inferior with their superior knowledge, but give it a try.

I really don't think I want to risk being impolite. Better to be silent.

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: One of the re-occuring problems I see of posters is that they 'pre-determine' their problem and then look for eveidence to "prove" their pre-conclusion. That kind of troubleshooting will lead a person into circles and never fix the problem. I saw this in the origional post and felt the need to point it out. I saw that as the first step in solving this problem. Since the spark plugs are running white, indicating its normal to lean - I have yet to hear a reason why the OP thinks his car is running 'really rich' I think what he is doing is thinking running rough = running rich. Sounds to me like it's running too lean caused by the low fuel pressure. The puff of smoke obtained when pouring gas into the intake would say nothing other than it was rich from having gas poured into the intake.

Wow, ok. I know my car is running rich. Apparently I have to prove this to you before you to believe me. Two reasons why I know. 1 - I sent logs to ryan (darth fiero) and asked him to look at them and burn a new chip for me. Like I thought, he said its running rich. 2 - When black smoke is coming out of the exhaust and you eyes are burning cause of the raw fuel and it has the smell of fuel, then I would have to call that rich.

There was no gas being poured down the intake for any of that. You really need to read a little more carefully, I may not be the best at communicating what is happening but I think other people are getting it. Gas was poured into the intake ONCE and it was a couple ounces. Car has been started a few times now, every time with the same symptoms. Running so rich the car stales.

I know white spark plugs indicate lean. That does contradict the fact that the car is running rich. But its when and how it happened that has to be taken into account.

When the car lost power driving, I had to pull over, when I pulled over the car idled fine. Swapped the MAP sensor, car started up. Can't remember now if it then died or I shut it off, but then it wouldn't start again. I then checked the spark plugs.

Now that the car starts, its back to running really rich and now it will not idle. I'll have a look at the spark plugs now, I'm sure they wont be white anymore.

I seem to be fighting the problem on both ends of the scale. Really rich or really lean. I guess I wasn't getting enough fuel to start the car (thats why the gas in the intake worked). Now that the car starts, its running too rich to idle.

The o2 is tell me the engine is really rich (theres another reason I know) I'll going to double check but I pretty sure a high value for the o2 means rich. If I'm wrong about that then its the o2 and I just got a new to put in. I'll probably just put it in anyhow just to try but I have a feeling it won't work. Just throwing money at sensor just fun ether. I have two more o2 sensors at home because I've suspected it before.

If its not the o2 then something must be telling the engine its lean, because its just dumping fuel in. What is a normal injector pulse width on idle?

quote Originally posted by phonedawgz: You need to troubleshoot your fuel delivery system BEFORE just replacing the fuel pump. The Haynes manual download you received free with the "GO-PACK-GO" promo code has a good section on it. Chapter 4 Section 3 - Fuel Pump Testing on page 132. If you have any questions about it come back and ask.

Sorry but that manual is not very good. Its showing things that are not on my car. Its says there are fuel pump test terminals?? I don't have any where they show they would be in the pic. I guess I can just use the relay terminal but what car are they showing this on? I do you my relay is energizing though.

Well as a quick test I unplugged the o2 sensor. Car will now idle. Still really really rich, black smoke, burning eyes. Its of course raining again so I'll wait a bit and change it. I'm still worried that it will die again as I don't think I have really found what caused that.

IF you are getting the two second hum - prime - of the fuel pum when you turn the key to ON but not to START - that is via the relay - so if your getting that your relay IS energizing.

The question isn't if the pump is running. You are getting some fuel pressure at the schreder valve - so the fuel pump has to be running.- the question - is what is up with the low fuel pressure. 2" of squirt is not any where near 40 psi. That's the troubleshooting part of the book you need to look to.

You can put power to the fuel pump test point on the ALDL to make the fuel pump run to test it.

[This message has been edited by phonedawgz (edited 06-27-2010).]

Well fuel pressure was fine. An inch and a half of fuel shooting up is about right, you have to remember there is nothing actively pressuring the system with the key on. There is only two seconds that the fuel pump is on.

Problem is solved now. Turns out it was the O2 sensor. I wasn't aware that the O2 sensor could cause such havoc.

Was this a problem when cold, hot, or both? O2 sensor is used only in closed loop (warm), right?