Edit: Update 7-13-2010 - Passed the Smog Test Today !
Had the original Cataytic Converter replaced. Test numbers all single digits or zeros.

Took my Fiero in for a Smog Test today, it did not pass.
Missed the HC by 1 point, and was above the Nox limit by 49 points.

Pulling out the Smog Test from 2 years ago, I noticed the limits were different.
A quick call to BAR, was given a link to the new standards called Cutpoint Application under Quick Hits.

Link: http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov...points/ShowMake.aspx

The car is a 1988 Duke with a factory CAT, it could be time for a new one ?
Thinking about a tune-up before retesting, any other suggestions ?

Edit: Update 5-14-2010 ---- Did not pass Smog Test Try #2

Just missed HC at 15 mph - measured 104 PPM, Maximum Limit to pass - 85 PPM
For all the numbers, HC was at max. or over, NO was high, closed to max. limits, and CO was well below max. limits.
Will post all the numbers from Test #2.

[This message has been edited by StockGT (edited 07-13-2010).]

Wow, Leave it to cali to raise standards on old cars... Thats a dirty trick. So glad I do not live there.

How can they just make things harder? I thought the old stuff only had to comply with what it was manufactured for. Pretty sure the nothing has changed about what they did in the 80's.

Good luck


Oh, If it is NOX related check your EGR system out.

[This message has been edited by thedrue (edited 05-04-2010).]

* Car fails, you spend more to re-test. Re-test = $$.

* Car still fails, they flag it... cant be registered until the issues are resolved. Usually this is more than the cost of the car itself when relating to older vehicles. More $$.

* Being you cant register your car, your forced to buy another which = sales tax, registration, title transfer, now the 3rd emissions exam, and tags for the year. Even more $$

* Old car will not pass, which means it sits and rots, or people take it in and have it hauled off to be recycled. ( best case )

* If not, they impound it, and then charge you for it = more of your $$.

But its done in the name of the environment, which the new cars "are" less polluting and more fuel efficient, but at the same time would it not benefit them if this was the case to allow for ANY motor swap that would result in less emissions? ( Insert Common sense )

Cliff Notes: The state wants you to buy a new car - they make more off it when you do.

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Is this where I insert something witty?

I looked at my 2008 test results and the new requirements, and I would fail by 4 pts on the nox test.
In 2008 I had a new cat. Looks like I am in trouble this year, due in a couple of months.

quote Originally posted by thedrue: Wow, Leave it to cali to raise standards on old cars... Thats a dirty trick. So glad I do not live there. How can they just make things harder? I thought the old stuff only had to comply with what it was manufactured for. Pretty sure the nothing has changed about what they did in the 80's. Good luck Oh, If it is NOX related check your EGR system out.

Well, how else can they get them off the road and force you to buy new cars?

my god, cali makes me mad... I dont even live there. Don't give in. Keep your baby! Something needs to be done for the older cars on the road. This is rediculous.

quote Originally posted by thedrue: Wow, Leave it to cali to raise standards on old cars... Thats a dirty trick. So glad I do not live there. How can they just make things harder? I thought the old stuff only had to comply with what it was manufactured for. Pretty sure the nothing has changed about what they did in the 80's. Good luck Oh, If it is NOX related check your EGR system out.

Agreed. It's unconstitutional for them to say it has to be cleaner now than when it was new. Preferably sue them or alternately move out of Cali. If Cali were to face a mass exodus, they'd have to relax the rules just to retain enough taxpayers to remain viable.

I'm not sure that the lowering of the limits was unique to California.
Here in Ontario the standard is ASM 2525 same as California
ASM 2525 limit 2002 ASM 2525 limit 2004

HC ppm 147 HC ppm 106
CO% 0.82 CO% 0.59
NO ppm 1675 NO ppm 1164

My 85GT actual results

HC ppm 8 HC ppm 19
CO% 0.1 CO% 0.23
NO ppm 39 NO ppm 91

After 20 years old and 1987 or older Clean Air Testing is no longer required in Ontario , however, last year the Ontario Ministry of the Environment started visiting Cruise Nights and have taken up checking collector cars to ensure they have all the Polution Control Devices they left the factory with.

[This message has been edited by Tinkrr (edited 05-04-2010).]

I took a look at the new limits with a calculator in hand, the change works out to a 30 % reduction in the maximum allowable limits. With an older car, as pointed out by others, this means for some the solution would be to replace the car.
Are cars now, like so many other product, easier to discard rather then repair ?
End of rant, need more fixing.

The mileage on the car reads 169 K, orginal engine, orginal CAT.
I did replace the EGR valve two years ago so it would past the test, along with a new O2 sensor.
Picked up oil and filter for an oil change tomorrow. Other activity will include picking up some parts for a tune-up.

Anyone running and passing Smog Tests with an orginal CAT with over 150K miles ?

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88 Stock GT
I'm not cheap, just fiscally responsible

Since others have already complained about the testing here in CA, I do not have to. For passing the smog it is always a good idea to change the oil and tune up before the test. The original cat was not that good. I had one Fiero with 40k original miles and the cat was toast. I would not replace the cat unless the car failed after the tune up. I will bet that in two years, if you still drive the Fiero, you will need to replace the cat.

Wait a minute, You mean that California is changing the limits on older cars? I would find a lawyer and a group of folks who own older cars and see if a class action suit is possible. If the vehicle was manufactured for California use and was well within legal limits when manufactured, how can they now make you redesign the emission system to comply with the new limits????? I can't believe they can legally do that.

Does California require vehicle previous to 1967 be tested? If not, I would find me a nice 1965-1966 vehicle and drive that.

Wouldn't mixing alcohol into your gas help you pass the test?

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My Car Site │ www.flexyourrights.com
Just say NO!! to Automatic Transmissions!!
DRAG RACING - So easy a Caveman can do it!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Does California require vehicle previous to 1967 be tested? If not, I would find me a nice 1965-1966 vehicle and drive that.

No, it's all cars built after 1975. It used to be a "30 years and it's ok" rule, but when 2005 came around, they just left the last non smoggable year at 1975.

Spent some time today picking up parts.

For Brastic - Went looking for older ASM charts, just found one from 2003, numbers not the same as a 2008 test.

On Primaris suggestion - Got the same from a former mechanic, along with checking the EGR passage for partial blockage.

Picked up an EGR gasket so I can check for any carbon build-up, and clean it out.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Does California require vehicle previous to 1967 be tested? If not, I would find me a nice 1965-1966 vehicle and drive that.

Used to be anything 25 years and older didn't have to be smogged. They were talking about changing that back in the late 90's as 80's vehicles were approaching the cutoff age. In 98 I had just bought a 81 VW Rabbit and planned to swap a 16 valve from a GTI into it since in a few years I wouldn't have to smog it anymore. I was going to restore it overtime and figured I'd just register it non-op until it came of age. That got shot down when they started thinking of changing the law and then did change it. So I bought a diesel 80 VW Rabbit Pickup and did it in that instead. Diesels didn't need to be smogged at the time, but I sold it shortly after the engine swap so I don't know if that ever changed. My father has a 72 Chevelle and he doesn't have to smog it, or atleast last I knew he didn't.

Did a little search and it looks like any pre 98 diesel vehicle doesn't need to be smogged and any gasoline vehicle 1975 or older doesn't need to be smogged. So it doesn't look like they've changed the exempt status since I moved away from there.

Does my car qualify for smog exempt status in California?

quote Currently, smog inspections are required for all vehicles except diesel powered vehicles manufactured prior to 1998 or with a Gross Vehicle Weight (GVWR) of more than 14,000 lbs, electric, natural gas powered vehicles over 14,000 lbs, hybrids, motorcycles, trailers, or gasoline powered vehicles 1975 and older.

The one thing about a diesel chassis engine swap though is, pray a cop doesn't ask you to pop the hood and know he's not looking at a diesel engine. But, if your willing to take the risk, that'd be a way to go.

[This message has been edited by Khw (edited 05-05-2010).]

We have to stand up for ourselves! I know many are happy buying new automotive appliances every few years but theres a large number of people who actually care about what they drive and want to have style and flare. I just got a 124 dollar ticket for no front license plate... Its getting ridiculous no fix it ticket or anything, right to the fine.

I don't know about any of you but a 87 coupe body should never have a front plate on it, totally ruins the car. Luckily I only have to make it through one more smog test and Im free and clear in Washington. Im just gonna change my address to where I go to school cause no smog out here then Ill be good to go forever.

Wow, California really sucks. Seriously, I would move. I agree with the previous comment, how can they possibly make the standard more strict than the car had to pass when it was brand new.

Here in PA, after 15 years, you can get your car registered as a Classic, and it does not have to get a Emissions inspection. Safety inspection only. The only catch is the car can not be a daily driver, but can be driven occassionaly, like on weekends.

They have actually done something similar here in Sweden... before they tested nox and what not on idle only, now they test on half throttle as well.
Probably a way to get to the people that tune their cars VERY lean before inspection to run like crap but make it through on idle.
I barely got through with my deleted cat & no EGR. Putting 1/3 etanol in the tank is a well known trick over here to get the emissions down a bit.

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Wait a minute, You mean that California is changing the limits on older cars? I would find a lawyer and a group of folks who own older cars and see if a class action suit is possible. If the vehicle was manufactured for California use and was well within legal limits when manufactured, how can they now make you redesign the emission system to comply with the new limits????? I can't believe they can legally do that. Does California require vehicle previous to 1967 be tested? If not, I would find me a nice 1965-1966 vehicle and drive that.

That's funny- I was just talking to WCF about the cut-off limit for Fiero. The bad news; there isn't- no 25 yr cut-off. Actually, for any car made prior to 1971- you're okay.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: That's funny- I was just talking to WCF about the cut-off limit for Fiero. The bad news; there isn't- no 25 yr cut-off. Actually, for any car made prior to 1971- you're okay.

1975

What were the resulting numbers on your test? Maybe I can help point you in a helpfull direction. I happen to do Emissions testing where I work. Truth is, if you car is working as it should be then you should not have any problems passing the test. Aftermarket Cat's are good for about 2 years before they start seeing very serious declines in efficiency. There is a reason why people will pay $50 or more for your old OE cat, and they give $5 for an used up aftermarket cat.

The numbers from the first ASM Emission Test - Calif.

Speed - 15 mph (test RPM 1554)
Max. Limits: HC- 85 PPM, CO- 0.54 %, NO- 565 PPM
Measured : HC- 86 PPM, CO- 0.14 %, NO- 397 PPM

Speed - 25 mph (test RPM 2530)
Max. Limits: HC- 67 PPM, CO- 0.45 %, NO- 522 PPM
Measured : HC- 40 PPM, CO- 0.13 %, NO- 571 PPM

1988 Fiero - 2.5L, 4-cylinder, Manual, Odometer- 169,000, orginal CAT.

Tested over the limits for HC at 15mph, and NO at 25 mph.

I have been lucky with smog checks. I keep my cars running good and have never failed a smog check yet. The 87 Ford Ranger wanted to fail, but somehow pass (barely) every time. The fun test was when my 72 VW bug was "typo'd" at the DMV as a 94 and it still passed the smog test. That was one of those, keep your mouth shut when you pass the test moments.

How do all the hot rodders get by?

quote Originally posted by raysr11: How do all the hot rodders get by?

Because we use big nasty carbs. Big cams with lots of over lap. Spits raw gas down the pipes
at idle. Headers blowing fire cooking anything in its path. J/K

quote Originally posted by raysr11: How do all the hot rodders get by?

Hot Rodders generally use cars that don't require smog, that is they are to old to have been built from the factory with smog equipment. Although there are exceptions, like my Fathers 72 Chevelle. I beleive it came with a smog pump that he pulled off of it since it is smog exempt.

So the next million dollar question is this.....when I used to smog my truck, I used aviation fuel at 100 octane. The exhaust smelled like alcohol and the truck passed with close to zero emissions. Anyone try this with a Fiero yet?

quote Originally posted by Isolde: Agreed. It's unconstitutional for them to say it has to be cleaner now than when it was new. Preferably sue them or alternately move out of Cali. If Cali were to face a mass exodus, they'd have to relax the rules just to retain enough taxpayers to remain viable.

Where does the constitution address emissions regulations? I'll agree to "not fair", but "unconstitutional" is quite a stretch.
People with early emissions era cars are a favorite whipping group for all sorts of special interest groups with political clout.

quote Originally posted by Khw: The one thing about a diesel chassis engine swap though is, pray a cop doesn't ask you to pop the hood and know he's not looking at a diesel engine. But, if your willing to take the risk, that'd be a way to go.

If he asks you to pop the hood, you are within your rights to tell him no.

hmmm...I seem to recall reading someplace that you could drive a 10 year old car for something like 15 years before a new car would break even with regards to the amount of pollution created building and then driving the new less polluting car...

...sort of makes a person wanting to buy some 1970 crap car that has some blow by and drive that around just to get even.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-09-2010).]

I am still looking for the change to the smog test. I see that California has changed the type of test from the straight sniffer to the ASM 1554 and the ASM 2525. What I cannot find are the exact numbers that have changed.

From a glance, those all look like your Converter has gone south. Though the only way to be sure would be to do a preconverter test to be sure. You didnt park it for long before they ran the test did you? sometimes those older Cats just need to be good and warmed up before they work enough. Usualy when you have an egr problem the NOX will be much higher.. and when you have a O2 sensor problem your CO will be higher.. since all your numbers seem just a little high but still in good ratios to each other, I would suspect your Cat... Good luck with your test!

Progess Update - Did some more work the last few days.

Picked up a new Air Filter, old filter looked OK.
Checked the TBI injector for leaks with engine off - no leaks found.
Check the EGR port on the TBI, no blockage found, sprayed with Throttle Body cleaner anyway.
Replaced the fuel line o-rings at TBI - cheaper than a Fire Extinguisher !!!
No more stored codes.
Replaced the Thermostat and cleaned some rust off around the top of the neck where the cap seals.
oops - cleaned too much, now have two pin-hole leaks

I was all ready this morning to take the car another test drive, maybe a pre-test, now have a coolant leak.
Did a patch job with some epoxy putty, let it cure, not leaking this afternoon. Just need to get the air out, with a good burp.

From CaddyRob - The car may just need a new Converter. The CAT is over 22 years old, so it may need a new one. For the first test, the car was driven for 30 minutes. It did not sit long before the test was run. I replaced the Bosch O2 sensor with a AC Delco sensor, as many have stated better performance with the AC Delco brand. Will see with the next test.

I have a question on the Smog Test results - Don't know if it could point to a problem area.
On the test two years ago, when it passed, % O2 measured at 5.4 and 2.7 for 15 and 25 mph.
This year the % O2 measured at 0.5 and 0.2 at 15 and 25 mph.
Could this be another indication of an under performing Converter ?

This may sound kinda crazy, but have you ever thought of using Seafoam™?

The numbers from Try #2 ASM Emission Test - Calif., on 5-14-2010

Speed - 15 mph (test RPM 1524)
Max. Limits: HC- 85 PPM, CO- 0.54 %, NO- 565 PPM
Measured : HC- 104 PPM, CO- 0.17 %, NO- 539 PPM

Speed - 25 mph (test RPM 2469)
Max. Limits: HC- 67 PPM, CO- 0.45 %, NO- 522 PPM
Measured : HC- 67 PPM, CO- 0.19 %, NO- 503 PPM

1988 Fiero - 2.5L, 4-cylinder, Manual, Odometer- 169,500 with orginal Converter.

Tested over the limits for HC at 15mph, above limit by 19 PPM
Test was performed same Test Station at the same test station.

That's got to be disappointing, to miss by just a little. Have you thought about applying for the state
$500 for repairs? I did that 4 yrs ago. If you were required to use a test only station, then you can
apply for the state money to be used at a gold shield test and repair station. The bar site has the forms,
I don't know if the state has any money left for the program. The other state option is for them to buy
the car for $1000 to be crushed, I don't like to think about that option. With the $500 program you have
to pay the first $100 unless income qualified.

Yes fiamma - I tried the State repair program for the 2006 Smog test.
I took the car to an approved Gold Shield Test Station, thinking the car would get some necessary repairs that would reduce the measured emissions. The car passed the test, no parts or repairs were listed on the invoice, and guess what, I was charged exactly the 100 dollar deductible for the 2nd smog test, plus the cost of the first test !

I would guess that the test was run with the car warmed up, unlike the test that failed at the first test station. Looking at the numbers from the second test in 2006, all of the numbers were well above average, with HC on the high side and NOx only 4 PPM under the max. limits. I believe in 2006, the EGR valve should have been replaced (using my hindsight glasses).

Looking at passing tests since 2002, there has been a steady increase in HC and NOx emissions, along with the 30 % reduction in the maximum allowed limits by the State this Year, the car barely missed passing.

I know your Fiero is 4-banger, but did you replace the pick-up coil? Dale mentioned he too was having some issues with his 2.8, so he replaced the pick-up coil. The said mentioned the car ran better.

quote Originally posted by madcurl: I remember Exoticse having issues with his 2.8 starting. It just so happened that Songman was having the same issues with his 2.8 engine Dale had to replace the pick-up coil and after replacing it- the car started right up. Dale had replaced the coil, module, distributor and other items, but the pick-up coil.

[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 05-15-2010).]

madcurl - no pick-up coil on the 88 Duke, does have the crank sensor which I replaced once in the past. Need to take a closer look at all of the sub-systems, including the DIS Ignition. Planning on taking the car to a friend that has an ECM scanner, to check the sensors. I was on a road trip to use the scanner before the second test, but had another cooling leak.