I recently bought tires and had an alignment. The shop is telling me I need cambor and caster bolts $7-8 for bolts and then labor which is unknown at this time. I need a quick answer on my questions so I started a new thread because I think people are not looking at the old thread because they thought everything was resolved. See history here:https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/090077.html

Questions: Are they correct in what they are telling me about cambor and caster bolts?
Where are these bolts? Pics if possible.
Should I just do it myself?

Sorry for repeat thread but I kinda need some quick responses.Thanks

Jim

Just got back from Pep Boys and what they were telling me is I needed "aftermarket" cambor bolts (the ones that attach to the strut) I asked "How does a bolt go bad if it hasn't broken?" they told me the aftermarket bolt allows them to adjust cambor and caster. Then they tell me the strut will need replaced. "You mean the brand new ones I just recently put in?" "And your ball joints are bad too". "You mean the ball joints that I put in moments before I replaced those struts?"

Give me my freakin keys. I will be back for a refund on my non alignment when I'm off work again. I'm late as it is now. So I'm off to work and boy am I pissed.

Feel free to chime in anyone.

Jim

Most shops I've been to want to install the offset bolts in order to adjust the rear wheels on the Fiero. It does make doing the allignment a lot simpler.

$7 - $8 for the bolts is reasonable (I've seen shops try to get $20 for them), but the labor might kill you.

They have to break free the old, rusted bottom strut bolts that mount the lower strut bracket to the knuckle. If they haven't been removed in years, they'll eat up a few hours of shop labor time.

If you want to save a few bucks, buy the offset bolts yourself, and PB Blaster the lower strut bolts for awhile. Break them free with a good breaker bar and ratchet, and clean and replace them along with the offset bolts for the wheel allignment. If you do this without disturbing the strut allignment, you can then drive your car to the allignment shop, and all they'll need to do is just do the allignment.

You may find the same problem for the upper front A arm bolts and shims. Rusted tight over the years.

Good luck, hope this helps

[This message has been edited by Gwain (edited 03-15-2008).]

For the rear struts, you want the bolts from www.NAPAonline.com - PN NCP2643609

www.rockauto.com has the equivalent Spicer unit PN 6161014
http://www.rockauto.com/cat...52,pgname,Suspension





Moog has a kit as well that slightly different.

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3.4L S/C 87 GT www.fierosound.com
2002/2003/2004 World of Wheels Winner &
Multiple IASCA Stereo Award Winner

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 03-15-2008).]

If I remember right, Fiero front has only a very minor caster adjustment.....adding or subtracting 1 or 2 thin washers is it. Aftermarket ball joints are adjustable so you can change caster more drasticly. I dont know about the rears.

bump

I used the NAPA ones on the rear of mine. They worked great. Use the online part number, because it didn't show up on the store computer. Make sure you tell the alignment shop[ that you installed them. And make sure that you tell them that you replaced the balljoints and struts. Some aligners suck big time.
Joe Crawford

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: If I remember right, Fiero front has only a very minor caster adjustment.....adding or subtracting 1 or 2 thin washers is it. Aftermarket ball joints are adjustable so you can change caster more drasticly. I dont know about the rears.

Upper control arm washers could be moved to correct front caster but you'd have to replace 2 of the thick washers with 4 thinner ones.
On the driver's side : Thick,Thin,Control Arm Bushing,Thin then Thick,Thin,Control Arm Bushing,Thin would increase caster

(ignore the red text in the IMG)


Camber in the front is done by flipping the stock offset upper ball joint around.
Aftermarket upper ball joints with slotted holes like Rodney sells give a little more camber adjustment. Neither upper ball joint will adjust caster.

The camber bolts shown above with eccentric washers are for the rear stuts. They will add some additional adjustment because they are smaller than the stock bolts.
The alignment shop should try to adjust rear camber with the stock strut bolts first before selling you the camber bolts with eccentric washers.

Okay I'm back from work. Thanks to the sweetie for bumpin the thread to keep at the top. Here's what I'm going to do for now. I am going to ask for a refund on the alignment. I don't think I'll get it, but I am going to make the managers life miserable in the process. It was obvious the tech didn't put any effort into the alignment. He saw a 23 year old car and felt he could blame it on anything. He got caught in 2 lies and I feel he has lied twice more, but I can't prove it. There is no way the car can come out with a worse pull after an alignment, unless the alignment was done incorrectly or poorly. I'll take it to my regular mechanic and have it done right. He did it before, and it was perfect. The only reason I had Slep Boys do the alignment was I didn't want to have to take it to another shop after getting tires. Lesson learned. Forget convenience and have it done by people you know and trust. I had an incident with Slep boys about 15 years ago and I never wanted to use them again. Now I remember why. My memory will not fail me next time.

quote The cheap man always pays more in the end

I will tape this quote to the dash of my Fiero.

Jim

BTW: Thanks for all the help guys.

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 03-15-2008).]

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: The only reason I had Slep Boys do the alignment was I didn't want to have to take it to another shop after getting tires.

Hopefully, you didn't buy their brand of tires.

quote Originally posted by fierosound: For the rear struts, you want the bolts from www.NAPAonline.com - PN NCP2643609 www.rockauto.com has the equivalent Spicer unit PN 6161014 http://www.rockauto.com/cat...52,pgname,Suspension Moog has a kit as well that slightly different.

you want to use the upper ones shown here
the lower ones have a special sleeve, and are really nifty - BUT - they dont have quite the range of adjustment as the ones with the cam washers.
but - either way - even without cammed bolts - a decent alignment tech should be able to do the job.

quote Originally posted by jimbolaya: Just got back from Pep Boys and what they were telling me is I needed "aftermarket" camber bolts (the ones that attach to the strut) I asked "How does a bolt go bad if it hasn't broken?" they told me the aftermarket bolt allows them to adjust cambor and caster. Then they tell me the strut will need replaced. "You mean the brand new ones I just recently put in?" "And your ball joints are bad too". "You mean the ball joints that I put in moments before I replaced those struts?" Give me my freakin keys. I will be back for a refund on my non alignment when I'm off work again. I'm late as it is now. So I'm off to work and boy am I pissed. Feel free to chime in anyone. Jim

Sounds like you were the victim of an attempted scam. I can understand adding the eccentric bolts that will provide better camber adjustment but for someone to claim that you needed new struts and ball joints when you just replaced them is OUTRIGHT FRAUD This incident should be reported to the state attorney generals office or proper legal authorities in your state.
We Fiero owners do most of our own work to avoid these lowlife thieves and scam artists. These parasites pray on the unsuspecting car owners who know little about their vehicles.
I'd like to get a job as an inspector for the state, se these guys up bigtime and see these scam artists put in jail.

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

Take it to Super Car Care on the corner of Dam Neck and Holland. Ask for Mike. He gets all the alignments and inspections to my Fieros and does a quality job. He may not be the one doing the work but he will ensure the tech assigned does good work. Matter of fact, I'm getting ready to take the GT by there for an alignment since I changed out the steering rack.

Ok, I just got home from taking my 84 to get an alignment. My son and I just got done restoring the entire car including all new suspension ie: ball joints, tie rods ends struts bolts ect. When I went to pick it up they told me that they could not bring the alignment into specs because they ran out of adjustment on the rear camber and that the caster on the front was slightly out of cross caster. They didn't really have a solution for the rear camber problem, but after reading this do I need the aftermarket camber bolts for the rear? Or did I install the struts wrong (are they suppose to go in a certian way)? They are new Monroe struts. Actual camber settings on the back after alignment are +1.3 degree and +1.7 degree insteed of -0.8 to -1.3 degrees

As for the front caster, I guess I need to take one of the washers on one side and move it to the front of the bolt and the opposite for the other side. Is this also right? Shouldn't they have done this? All the bolts are brand new, no rust anywhere, sounds like an easy job to do. I don't know anything about suspension, just starting to learn.

[This message has been edited by Crazy 4 Red 84 (edited 02-22-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Crazy 4 Red 84: Ok, I just got home from taking my 84 to get an alignment. My son and I just got done restoring the entire car including all new suspension ie: ball joints, tie rods ends struts bolts ect. When I went to pick it up they told me that they could not bring the alignment into specs because they ran out of adjustment on the rear camber and that the caster on the front was slightly out of cross caster. They didn't really have a solution for the rear camber problem, but after reading this do I need the aftermarket camber bolts for the rear? Or did I install the struts wrong (are they suppose to go in a certian way)? They are new Monroe struts. Actual camber settings on the back after alignment are +1.3 degree and +1.7 degree insteed of -0.8 to -1.3 degrees As for the front caster, I guess I need to take one of the washers on one side and move it to the front of the bolt and the opposite for the other side. Is this also right? Shouldn't they have done this? All the bolts are brand new, no rust anywhere, sounds like an easy job to do. I don't anything about suspension, just starting to learn.

Most Fieros I've ever put on a rack have been slightly out for cross-caster. This is not a dimension that will affect straight line tracking, nor will it have any noticeable effect on tire wear. As long as its close, just be worried about toe, camber, and thrust. (pretty much in that order)

quote Originally posted by Crazy 4 Red 84: do I need the aftermarket camber bolts for the rear? Or did I install the struts wrong (are they suppose to go in a certian way)? They are new Monroe struts. Actual camber settings on the back after alignment are +1.3 degree and +1.7 degree insteed of -0.8 to -1.3 degrees As for the front caster, I guess I need to take one of the washers on one side and move it to the front of the bolt and the opposite for the other side. Is this also right? Shouldn't they have done this?

Anybody have advice to these questions?

thanks for your reply KurtAKX

is the information in the program shops use today or do i have to go with my shop manual to get my rear aligned. i have not changed my struts, but thanks to this forum i had purchased cam bolt already from all the reading i have done soo far.i bleed my clutch today, ah, baby steps for me, i have a bad back and do not move to fast besides i had to go buy a new jack to jack the car up high enough for the fluid to flow. i hope it fixed my clutch problem. i was a service manger for a short amount of time and customers are tough to deal with. lots of people felt like thay got riped off when thay purchased the used car from the lot that sold the cars we fixed and thay where right.fiero owners know more about there cars than most people and can tell when thay are being taken.when the alignment equiptment went bad and the person whom was doing the alignments at the shop i had worked in seem to not know what he was doing, i took it down the street to the place ending in year. i got to know the shop manager and seen the equiptment, i told him i would send him some alignments for him to do for me. well this was a couple of years ago and i have been out of the fixing car buisness and it will be my turn to have an alignment soon and i hope the year still has good people behind the equiptment still. i still will go with the shop manual, it has the info. i think thay need just in case thay do not have it in there computer.ah, this car keeps you thinking.

I have the Ingalls Fast-Cam bolt on the upper strut mount bolt in the rear. I dont like them very much because you have to pull them out and turn them around to get positive/negative camber correction which requires some mental gymnastics to make sure you're putting it in the right way. I'm still not sure how they even work. The Moog bolts on rockauto listed for the fiero look much more simple to use, and the same for the NAPA bolts.

Does anyone have any experience with the NAPA or Moog bolts that can give a run down on how/how well they work?

I have the Napa ones pictured in the post with brand new KYB struts and coil overs. I installed the camber bolts took the car to a anlignment shop and they broke one of the slotted washers washers trying to adjust the rear. They must be very brittle. They said that they wanted more adjustability and told me to diegrind out the holes in the upper strut. So, I took the car home and elongated the holes with a die grinder and put the stock bolts back in. That seems to have done it. Anyway, I'm due to take it back to see how it measures now. Just waiting to get the engine cradle back in the car after a recent clutch changeout.

Is this thread just for 88 cars? Do the 86-87 have the rear camber bolts too

bump

I mentioned this in another thread. there are a few possibilities why they have this issue.
1. some knuckles have an extra casting flash that does not allow the cam bolts to fully pivot the knuckle in the strut sleeve. Apparently it is not consistent which cars have this issue, tho I thought it was only 88's, I could be wrong on that. (the cam
2. the strut plate cam part is worn down. look where the cam washer rides on the raised stamped part on the sleeve, if it is not square but looks rounded off, then look at the washer and see if the edge is rounded and the washer slightly bent up. if so, that sleeve is shot. new struts should not have this problem unless the mechanic was an animal and forced the adjustment and rounded off the ridge. check the knuckle also for something that is not allowing full travel, ie part 1.

quote Originally posted by IIKool: Is this thread just for 88 cars? Do the 86-87 have the rear camber bolts too

All fieros are basically the same when it comes to strut mounting. So all of them can benefit from camber bolts if they are needed. My car is lowered 1.5" and I still had no problem getting enough camber out of the factory bolts.

There is no caster adjustment for the rear of any year fiero. Period. If they tell you there is they're full of s**t. If they say these bolts have anything to do with caster, walk away. For the rear the only time you need the aftermarket bolts is if your car is significantly lowered and you can't get enough camber during an allignment (84-88). The lower bolt hole in the strut is slotted for adjustment with the solid factory bolts. "Some" adjustment is there already which is why you will only need the aftermarket bolts if you are significantly lowered and you just can't get enough.

Rear toe is adjusted at either the tierod (84-87) or link (88).

For the 84-87, front caster is adjusted by moving spacers on the front upper "A" arm bolt. For caster on the 88's there are two bolts on the upper "A" arm and it is easily adjustable. 84-87 front Camber is adjusted by flipping the Upper balljoint or alternately picking up a set of adjustable upper balljoints. Front toe is adjusted at the tierods for all fieros 84-88.

Always, always, always have them provide a printout of the measurments to confirm. Many shops will not adjust caster on 84-87 fieros because it requires removing the upper "A" arm bolt. Ask ahead of time to be sure they know how to do it and are willing to. Many shops will say they offer a full alignment but will not adjust caster unless you specifically ask for it. This pisses me off to no end. Hope this is some help.

Bad Pep Boys!!! No candy for you!!!

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 02-23-2010).]

Thanks Fieroeverywhere, what about installing the struts wrong? Is it possible? Do they need to line up any specific way? My shop said my new Monroe struts didn't have enough camber adjustment (see previous post).

quote Originally posted by Crazy 4 Red 84: Thanks Fieroeverywhere, what about installing the struts wrong? Is it possible? Do they need to line up any specific way? My shop said my new Monroe struts didn't have enough camber adjustment (see previous post).

The struts can't be installed backwards (won't bolt up right). There is no right and left either. Its very possible that the amount of adjustment from brand to brand could be different. It all comes down to the strut mounting hole and how much it is elongated in your particular car.

It seems odd to me that they could not get better then +1.7 degrees on one side. Thats nearly 3 degrees off what it should be. How much is your car lowered? Camber bolts will help but I would take a good look at the struts and mounting holes in the knuckle to be sure there is nothing blocking full adjustment.

For front caster you will need new washers. On a stock 84-87 fiero there are two 6mm spacers for the upper A arm. Its not recommended you move both to one side as it leaves nothing on the other side. The A arm bushings can then be chewed away during normal movement. The spacers also protect the bushings. Caster kits used to be available that contained one 9mm and one 3mm spacer per side. Using these instead of the two 6mm was suppose to be good for an extra 1 degree of adjustement. I don't think they are available anymore but those specific spacers are not that necissary. You can stack washers to match what you need on either side. Try to keep it to a total of 12mm. More or less then that can effect camber ever so slightly by changing the width of the upper A arm. Within reason it can be adjusted for at the upper balljoint. Hope this makes sense.

My particular car gave me problems with the front caster. I was unable to get enough caster using the 9mm/3mm spacers. My solution was simple. I took the two 6mm spacers from each side, machined 1mm off of 2 of them. I put both on the rear side of the upper A arm bolt (now totalling 11mm). Then I added a 1mm spacer to the front side to protect the bushings. This gave me lots of caster and really helped straight line tracking. The downside was increased steering resistance. The added resistance wasn't a big deal though and well worth it in the long run.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 02-24-2010).]

You just can't get anything done right anymore... God I hate lazy a$$ shop mechanics...

quote Originally posted by IIKool: Is this thread just for 88 cars? Do the 86-87 have the rear camber bolts too

Nobody even mentioned an 88 until after you posted... All Fieros have the same strut design in the rear. The only difference is there is a slight casting change that may need to be ground down on the 88 rear knuckle to clear the strut body properly. No Fiero has rear camber bolts, they are an aftermarket solution like a 'speed bleeder' for a brake caliper.

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 02-24-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: The struts can't be installed backwards (won't bolt up right). There is no right and left either. Its very possible that the amount of adjustment from brand to brand could be different. It all comes down to the strut mounting hole and how much it is elongated in your particular car. It seems odd to me that they could not get better then +1.7 degrees on one side. Thats nearly 3 degrees off what it should be. How much is your car lowered? Camber bolts will help but I would take a good look at the struts and mounting holes in the knuckle to be sure there is nothing blocking full adjustment.

I didn't think the strut could go in backwards but I wanted someone else to verify this. My car is not lowered at all, all newly rebuilt close to stock. I agree 3 degrees off is a ton, hence the questions. I will check to see if something is in the way holding it up from moving, the only thing that I can think of is a longer than normal axle. This is an 84 with a 5 speed in it (put in by the previous owner). Are the axles a different lenght between the tranny options? Of course they could be the wrong struts also, I did get them off ebay at a resonable price.

As for the front caster, I get what your laying down. I will have to check measurements and see what will work. As stated it is just barely out of cross camber so not high on the repair list right now, but the information that I needed to make it right in the future.

An Update:

After getting all the info here, manuals and a couple of true mechanics I decided to just get the tires of and take a look. What i found is that the adjusting bolt at the bottom of the knuckle was adjusted all the way in (making it the most positive camber possible @ +1.5 degrees). I was so pissed to find it there, which means that they didn't even look so see if it was adjusted all the way out before they gave up and told me they couldn't align it and something was wrong! So I shoved the strut in tightened the bolt up and scheduled another alignment with. When I scheduled the appointment I spoke to them and told them what I found and they said that they would take care of it without explanation. So last Saturday I dropped it off and picked it up with the expectation of it being right, which was asking to much from them! They asked me if I had the car jacked up when I moved alignment at home and said of course. They went on to explain that they had to jack the car up to get the bolts to move and that they could only get it close. WTF does close mean?? Well they gave it a half a** job and gave me the print out. The left was .2 degrees more negative camber than it should have been and the right was .1 degree less negative camber than what it should have been with the explanation that it was close enough. After learning generally what goes into alignments,understanding each aspect of the suspension parts and what it should be, it amazes me what some shops try to get away! Lazy SOB!! Will .1 and .2 degrees out of alignment ruin my tire? I've been told by my mechanic freind's that it will not, but why didn't they do it right in the first place? All know is that they will never get my business again! Thanks for this thread and those who contributed, I learned alot

If the alignment is out of tolerance, by 0.01 degree, by 3 degrees, whatever, it's out of tolerance. It's no good - they didn't do the job you paid them for. Out of spec is out of spec.

But I'd advise going to a smaller mom and pop garage, and pay by the hour, not at a flat rate where they will be compelled to rush rush rush.

The times I have had my cars aligned, I stood in the bay with the mechanic to supervise, and so that if he had a question, I could answer it right away, and they can't pull crap like "we couldn't get it aligned".

Ive seen shops that only set tow in during an alignment because they dont want to bother with anything else. Then if it pulled, they blamed the tires.

I had an alignment done a few months ago at Firestone.
What we did is when the mechanic loosened the camber bolt I pushed on the tire until it was within specs.
Then he tightened it down. It rides one heck of a lot better now.
It took some convincing for him do agree to doing this way, I got my way.

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Chuck
87 Fiero SE

Unless everything is severly rusted, when the bolts are loosened on GM struts (most FWD and Fiero rear) will collapse inward or negative at the top of the tire. A competent shop will have an inflatable pillow that slides behind the strut that pushes it out or positive when inflated. Just pump it up until you get the exact degree you wish and tighten. Very quick and simple.

albert

Camber Adjustments?

Rodney dickman sells the bolts as well. Those bolts work pretty good to return to stock alignment easy.

i just got my fiero, an 88 GT and the left rear has +1.5 camber, where the right rear is within spec at -.75. i loosened both camber bolts last night and cannot seem to get any adjustment out of the car. am i missing something? any ideas? i have the rear wheel off right now. any help is appreciated. thanks.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Ive seen shops that only set tow in during an alignment because they dont want to bother with anything else. Then if it pulled, they blamed the tires.

This is all too true. Insist on a printout when you pick up the car. Make sure all the final values are within the acceptable range. Many shops will not bother to touch the rear toe and camber if it is close to manufacturer's specs but since the Fiero is mid engine, rear alignment is more critical than on say, a FWD Honda or a RWD full size car.

[This message has been edited by TONY_C (edited 11-16-2010).]