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Clutch pressure plate installed height, by transmission. by KurtAKX
Started on: 03-30-2010 09:43 PM
Replies: 20
Last post by: fieroguru on 04-06-2010 08:43 PM
KurtAKX
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Report this Post03-30-2010 09:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
A while back, Matt Hawkins indicated to me that clutch pressure plates vary in height depending on which transmission application they were intended for.

Does anyone know if this is true, and if so, where I can get the height difference of the TO bearing contact point is between the various pressure plates...
Isuzu:
Getrag:
Muncie:
1992-94 NVG-T550 "the HTOB Getrag":
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Fosgatecavy98
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Report this Post03-31-2010 01:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Fosgatecavy98Send a Private Message to Fosgatecavy98Direct Link to This Post
This is true,

However I do not know the numbers you are looking for.
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post03-31-2010 08:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
Bump.

Somebody must know.

I wanna dump this crappy 3500 in, but I'm too cheap to buy all the pressure plates and measure installed heights.



..and yes, I did yell "dammit!" when I saw this stamped on the NVH plate. Ughh.
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-02-2010 01:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
bump for pressure plate height info.
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Report this Post04-02-2010 03:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

..and yes, I did yell "dammit!" when I saw this stamped on the NVH plate. Ughh.


Why'd ya yell? What's that mean?

------------------
----------------------------------------------------
Currently in the middle of my 88 + 3800NA swap

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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-02-2010 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:


Why'd ya yell? What's that mean?



I worked for Roush for a year as a Powertrain Engineer, and it was not a good experience. Its probably on the Forbe's list of "places with the worst employee relations"
I'll hit some of the bullet points, but bear in mind it'll be far from all-inclusive.


-I relocated approximately 150 miles to begin work there, and they offered no relocation benefits at all.

-To start with, I hired in at about 15-25% less money than all my classmates got right out of school, which I accepted because I was told it was a "probationary" salary and that at 3 months service, I would receive a performance review where I'd either be let go, or get a "substantial" increase.

-After begging, pleading, cajoling, etc. I finally got a performance review AT 9 MONTHS, in which I was given high marks, but then told that "the company didn't have any money to give me a raise". To put this in perspective, they were billing my labor hours out to customers at $70/hr, and paying me $24.03, and contributing 0 to retirement.

-I had an expense report for several hundred dollars of my own money that got denied because of a $.05 error in rounding on their employee mileage expense spreadsheet. It took almost 2 months to finally get the HR/accounting people to understand their mistake and pay me back.

-I had another expense report for something like $130, that I ended up just eating because it was for materials on a project that was already overbudget, and my boss wanted me to break company policy and fraudulently charge it to another project, which is a terminable offense.

-In the time I was there, the employer matching on retirement accounts went from a pretty meager 20% to NOTHING.

-The vesting for retirement accounts there takes 3 years, which means if you don't stay 3 years, you don't get to keep any funds they contributed. This sucks, but given that their other retirement policies were shitty, the grand total they contributed to my retirement in the year I was there $78.xx, yes 78 dollars, while my own contributions were over $2000.

-The health coverage was the worst I've ever had, and it was expensive. I made one claim against it, for a routine doctors visit and a prescription because I got a bladder infection. The total co-pay that the insurance had to make for everything was only about $100, AND THEY FOUGHT ME, ON THE BASIS THAT IT WAS A PRE-EXISTING CONDITION! I had a pretty cool doctor, who wrote me an affidavit explaining to the insurance company that "if Mr. Kimmerly had had this condition since before adopting insurance under your plan 7 months ago, the infection most likely would have spread to his kidneys and disabled him long before he came under my care"

-I had a boss who expected me to work as long as it took to get the job done(fair), but then piled on enough extra reports and presentations for me to prepare, that I'd be in the office until 9PM or later EVERY day, long after he was gone. I even worked every day, even Thanksgiving weekend, including coming in ON Thanksgiving, with my wife no less, and he still had the balls cite a "lack of effort" to a higher-up the following Tuesday. All this, and I was specifically instructed NOT to record any overtime hours.

-What most people don't know, is that over half of Roush's engineers in the Allen Park/Dearborn area are actually Canadian working here w/Visas. Most of the management is Canadian, and gives extreme preference to fellow Canadians/University of Windsor alumni. This meant that the few of us who were US citizens were perpetually assigned the '**** ' jobs, or would be assigned projects that were not turning out to be successful, to absolve the Canadians of ever having to face any consequences of screwing anything up. (though to be fair they were every bit as good/better than a lot of US guys I've worked with)

-In the spring of '09, Roush decided to cut costs. They did this the same way a lot of companies did, by laying people off. I had two qualms with this process:
One, that I don't recall seeing a single Canadian get let go, though I saw dozens of US guys get dismissed.
Two, it was done in a most dramatic fashion, akin to a sports draft. Every Friday morning, there'd be a closed meeting with just management, and they'd decide how many people to cut from each department that week. Then suspense would build throughout the day as rumors circulated on who was gonna get "axed" Then in the afternoon, management would come get people and tell them they were laid off, immediately, as in "pack your **** and get out."

-As you may expect, this happened to me as well. I made it through the first three or four rounds of cuts. On the day I got cut, my boss invited me and the one other remaining guy in my group out to lunch, at Cheli's chili bar in Dearborn, and proceeded to tell us how lucky we were, and how a lot of departments were gonna take losses. At 3:45PM, he then came and asked me to come down to the "big man's" office. Given the "led to the slaughter" mentality of what had gone on in previous weeks, I was a bit nervous. Lying to my face right to the very end, my Canadian boss told me "Don't worry, it's nothing bad like that" I arrived to find a couple of guys, the boss, and the HR woman, presenting me with a folder of papers on how to apply for unemployment.

-After telling me I was getting laid off, they then told me to "stay late" that evening because the (Canadian) guy who was going to be taking over my job responsibilities was late in returning to the office, and I shouldn't "inconvenience" him.

-Worse still, they put me on a "temporary layoff" for two weeks, saying that if new contracts came in, I'd be back to work. The conditions of this layoff were such that if they called me back to work, I needed to report within 24 hours or I'd be fired. If I got fired, I'd be ineligible for unemployment, and if I just quit and left, I'd be ineligible, so I had to stay in the Dearborn area, with no income.

-After 2 weeks of tense waiting, I was given another 3 week temporary layoff. This meant that I spent over a month generating expenses and paying bills, with no income, but i couldn't leave, for fear of loss of unemployment benefits.

-Since I was only a year before getting canned, no place will hire me now, because of my work history, (understandably) they think I'm a retarded, unreliable employee who doesn't play well with others. Without employment lasting over a year at any one place on my resume, I CAN'T EVEN GET A DAMNED INTERVIEW to demonstrate to them that I am not a retard.

-The HR woman then called me (and left a message in my Facebook) on the 23 of December 2009 and informed me that Roush had an opportunity working on-site for a powertrain customer in Indiana, and was I interested, and I had to give her a yes or no, right then. She had no details about duration or compensation to give me, but figuring the only way to demonstrate that I'm not a retard to other employers is show that Roush was willing to hire me back, I said yes, even though she couldn't give me ANY details.

-After that conversation 12/23/09, I called back once a week about the position. Not one of my phone calls was answered, or returned. I also emailed this HR woman, and despite being a legitimate candidate for a position as well as working with her for a year, she has had neither the professional, nor personal courtesy to return any of my communications via Facebook, email, or telephone.

I never really wrote any of this down, since I never wanted to "burn bridges", but its just too damn much to bear right now, and the duration of my unemployment is actually costing me my marriage right now. Wife moved out, is looking for a divorce lawyer presently.

If anyone here has wondered why I've been such an ass the last year, this is why.

/RANT

Now, does anyone know the various installed heights of pressure plates intended for each of the Fiero transmissions.
(working on cars is all that keeps me distracted from the train wreck that my life is)

[This message has been edited by KurtAKX (edited 04-02-2010).]

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aaronkoch
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Report this Post04-02-2010 10:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for aaronkochSend a Private Message to aaronkochDirect Link to This Post
Wow, that blows... I just decided to never buy rousch parts.

I can measure the height of the 4spd off of a v6 for ya, where do you want it measured? Flywheel face to depth of pp frame, or fingers included?
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Report this Post04-02-2010 11:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroseverywhereSend a Private Message to FieroseverywhereDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:

Wow, that blows... I just decided to never buy rousch parts.



x2

I hope things get better for you. Sorry I can't contribute to the thread more. The isuzu got scrapped a few months back, the getrag got re-installed yesterday, and the 4speed is sitting here with no engine to attach it to.
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Report this Post04-03-2010 01:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronkoch:

Wow, that blows... I just decided to never buy rousch parts.

I can measure the height of the 4spd off of a v6 for ya, where do you want it measured? Flywheel face to depth of pp frame, or fingers included?


If I am understanding what I'm being told about pressure plates correctly, the relevant measurement is this one:
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-04-2010 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
bump. really, there's nobody on here that's made these measurements when swapping from Muncie to Isuzu, Isuzu to Getrag, etc?
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-05-2010 01:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
bump again
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Fosgatecavy98
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Report this Post04-05-2010 02:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fosgatecavy98Send a Private Message to Fosgatecavy98Direct Link to This Post
Hey,

Give Clutch Dynamics a call, Dan the owner over there knows his stuff and might be able to give you an idea.
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fieroguru
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Report this Post04-05-2010 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruDirect Link to This Post
I took a bunch of them, but never wrote most of them down and the parts are long gone.

For the most part the pressure plate height was very similar (within 1/8"), just on one version the rivots were on top and could rub the tranny case if you did not take the high spots off. The largest differences I saw at the pressure plate fingers was mostly due to clutch friction material... any thickness variation of the firction material will change the position of the pressure plate fingers and I saw up to 1/4" differences between 3 brand new clutches from the same mfg (different clutch material on each of the 3).
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-05-2010 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
Just the info I needed, thanks!


So, you're saying they're all basically the same, save for a couple rivets that could attempt to "self-clearance" some places on the tranny case if I'm not careful?
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Report this Post04-06-2010 11:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

Just the info I needed, thanks!

So, you're saying they're all basically the same, save for a couple rivets that could attempt to "self-clearance" some places on the tranny case if I'm not careful?


Pretty much correct with regards to an OEM style clutch. I have used a 4 speed clutch/pressure plate with an isuzu on the back of a 2.8 and a Getrag clutch/pressure plate in an isuzu on 2.8/4.5/4.9 and SBC. Not to mention all the mockups done with a mismatch of pressure plates on the shelf with some used disks over the years. The 4cyl isuzu clutches/pressure plates are for a smaller diameter clutch disk and should only be used with the duke due to their reduced holding capacity.

Now once you go aftermarket some of the higher end pressure plates (higher clamp pressure) can be thicker. Good rule of thumb with the aftermarket ones is to follow their applications for their clutches (assuming they have test fitted them for those applications).

Where most people have issues is the flywheel depth from the bellhousing on the swaps. The fiero transmissions are quite tight from a clutch packaging standpoint and moving the flywheel face deeper into the tranny will cause issues really quick. Another factor is the depth of the transmission bellhousings are slightly different from tranny type to tranny type. I have the depth dimensions for the Isuzu, Muncie and Getrag... but not with me right now.
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Report this Post04-06-2010 07:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

....The 4cyl isuzu clutches/pressure plates are for a smaller diameter clutch disk and should only be used with the duke due to their reduced holding capacity....

...Another factor is the depth of the transmission bellhousings are slightly different from tranny type to tranny type. I have the depth dimensions for the Isuzu, Muncie and Getrag... but not with me right now.


The 8.5-ish clutch used behind my Duke is not capable of holding/transferring enough torque at present. The flywheel is the same as the 84, which is to say it'll take a 9 inch clutch. I just wasn't sure if I could snag any old Spec, Clutchnet, etc clutch intended for a Getrag or Muncie and put it in the Isuzu/Duke bellhousing without depth issues.

I would be interested in the bellhousing depths, it might be a valuable thing to make into a sticky somewhere.
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Report this Post04-06-2010 07:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
I just found this thread, and from the title I was more expecting measurements from the engine block face to the clutch friction face that's supposed to be against the flywheel. Wouldn't that be useful info?
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-06-2010 07:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
Also, Jazzman said something several years ago about using a 2.8 S10 clutch in his Fiero, which measured in at roughly 9-11/16"
I never investigated this, have you heard of anyone doing this successfully? Naturally, I would have some concerns about the depth of such a setup as well.
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KurtAKX
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Report this Post04-06-2010 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post

KurtAKX

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quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

I just found this thread, and from the title I was more expecting measurements from the engine block face to the clutch friction face that's supposed to be against the flywheel. Wouldn't that be useful info?


Yes, that would be useful info.

In my case, however, keeping the same engine, transmission, and flywheel what I am interested to know is where my pressure plate fingers are going to put the T.O. bearing and clutch fork relative to the stock set up.
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Report this Post04-06-2010 08:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:


I worked for Roush for a year as a Powertrain Engineer, and it was not a good experience. Its probably on the Forbe's list of "places with the worst employee relations"
I'll hit some of the bullet points, but bear in mind it'll be far from all-inclusive.


-I relocated approximately 150 miles to begin work there, and they offered no relocation benefits at all.
.....................................ar, this is why.

/RANT

Now, does anyone know the various installed heights of pressure plates intended for each of the Fiero transmissions.
(working on cars is all that keeps me distracted from the train wreck that my life is)



Man you have a lot of patience. But from what I read here if you get even a crappy lawyer you can sue them and get some money if you had some documentation. Hope things get better.
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fieroguru
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Report this Post04-06-2010 08:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

Also, Jazzman said something several years ago about using a 2.8 S10 clutch in his Fiero, which measured in at roughly 9-11/16"
I never investigated this, have you heard of anyone doing this successfully? Naturally, I would have some concerns about the depth of such a setup as well.


WCF sells a larger OD version clutch... has to come from some where. Over the years as the FWD V6's became larger and had more torque it would make sense that GM eventually put the largest clutch that woulf fit in it. I think the G6 clutch was larger as well, it is specified on the first page of the DIYer 6 speed.
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