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N/A TO SUPERCHARGED 3800...HOW HARD??? by leftu2
Started on: 02-18-2010 09:35 AM
Replies: 14
Last post by: Khaos88GT on 02-19-2010 03:04 PM
leftu2
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Report this Post02-18-2010 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for leftu2Send a Private Message to leftu2Direct Link to This Post
I have the chance to get a 2000 3.8 buick n/a motor for free.
Is it possible to swap the intake,computer and wire harness out
for the gm super charged set up and still use the n/a long block?
Also, can you use the stock exhaust manifolds or do you have to
get the headers?
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Report this Post02-18-2010 09:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IFLYR22Send a Private Message to IFLYR22Direct Link to This Post
Take the 3800 N/A and strip it down to a block with cam and pistons (and crank shaft). Then rebuild it as a SC version with SC parts. Can be done, but it is usually cheaper to get an SC version instead.
The 3800 N/A is no slouch, however. There are compatible, small, miscellaneous parts (like lifters and rockers, etc.), and I over simplified it for you, but the process is usually more costly than just getting an SC.
The stock exhaust manifold will work, headers are considered an upgrade.
There are kits to do exactly that. They supply everything you will need to convert an N/A to an SC. (can't remember the web sites, but someone else should be able to add it, or do a search).

-Dave

Adding: maybe consider the 3800N/A with a turbo.

[This message has been edited by IFLYR22 (edited 02-18-2010).]

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Fierobsessed
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Report this Post02-18-2010 10:30 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierobsessedSend a Private Message to FierobsessedDirect Link to This Post
Never done it, so I am not speaking from experience, but I can say that many others have done the "Top Swap" sucsessfully. Unfortunatly, and you aren't going to like this much, the long block is a No-Go. The heads are different. The supercharged heads are drilled for injectors while the NA's have them in the intake manifold. The heads are actually the same casting. So, no matter what, you will have to remove the heads to do the swap. I suppose you could have the heads machined for injectors, but its hardly worth the price if you are using a full donor engine anyway.

People who have done the top swap wind up with a more powerful engine then a standard L67 due to higher compression pistons. The bottom end doesn't quite have all the bells and whistles of an L67, (better rods and pistons) but no one complains of the NA's bottom ends letting go under supercharged service.

You will need:
Heads
Head bolts
Valve Covers (with hardware)
Valve Cover gaskets
Intake maifold
Lower intake gaskets (Get ones for a Series III, they are FAR better)
Supercharger base gasket (with the 2 O-rings)
Throttle body gasket (if you take the throttle body off for some reason)
Supercharger
Fuel Rail and hardware
Injectors
Throttle body (often it's still attached to the SC, includes MAF)
Supercharger Boost Bypass Solenoid and Actuator
Wiring for Bypass valve
Front Cast Iron GTP pulley bracket (with idler and tensioner)
Supercharger Idler Aluminum bracket (with idler pulley)
Supercharged harmonic balancer
Supercharger Belt
Supercharger mounting hardware
2 Bar MAP sensor and mounting bracket

Things I am not sure about:
EGR tube (if desired/required)
Heater Core water outlet
Main water outlet (usually a modified V6 Fiero Thermostat housing)
ECM (don't know if they are cross compatible, Im betting they are, but the programming must be different)
Coolant Temperature Sensor (it's different from SC to NA, The SC has an integrated Dash Board Gage sensor, NA has it seperate)
Ignition Module and coils (someone told me they are different, but I'm still skeptical)
Fuel pump (you need to have a good one for the SC'd application, So if you install a good one when NA, then you won't need to upgrade later)

Thats all that I can think of off the top of my head. Obviously, It makes a whole lot more sense to just swap in the 3800 SC in the first place. But its not like it's out of the question. It's also a lot easier to swap the whole engine down the line if a NA 3800 was already in place, just making the wiring modification for the Boost Bypass solenoid. Even that isn't required, But I reccomend using it. And of course whatever ECM stuff is needed. Bottom line, its the same amount of work, and the same modifications to the car to go SC, or N/A.

To the best of my knowlege the exhaust outlets are cross compatible between the two, so you could keep the same exhaust if you go that route. Most people opt to use the stock exhaust manifolds, and make a very short and tightly wound exhaust that comes straight out of the factory exhaust outlet. Many don't run catalytic converters, and quite a number of them cut out the bottom section of the trunk below the shelf to make room for the exhaust. Headers, like the ones West Coast Fiero sells, are a fantastic option for those wishing to keep the V6 Fiero style routing of the exhaust. In my opinion, this also produces the least unplesent sound, as 3800's have a bizarre sound anyway Other headers made are for FWD's, and typically requre removal of the bottom of the trunk. There are many different ways you can go about this, and quite a number of threads floating around this forum about them.

So if you are dead set on SC'ing the motor later on, Better plan on getting a whole motor and just swapping it in now or later. If you feel you are mechanically frisky and aren't fabricationally challenged, you can turbo the N/A motor and have one heck of a fast car, potentially on a budget.

In before DH
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GS Jon
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Report this Post02-18-2010 10:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GS JonClick Here to visit GS Jon's HomePageSend a Private Message to GS JonDirect Link to This Post
You'll need an idler standoff, a supercharger belt tensioner, the two-belt crank pulley, the supercharger, lower intake manifold, L67 heads, fuel rail, injectors, throttle body (complete with all sensors), and PCM. Then there's all the gaskets, supercharger o-rings (between SC and LIM), valve covers, etc etc etc.

You'll have a higher CR due to using the L36 pistons (9.4:1 instead of the L67's 8.5:1) and will need a 3.8 or 4.0" SC pulley to start with, and a tune.

EDIT: Looks like a much more inclusive list up above, got distracted while typing my reply so I missed it.

[This message has been edited by GS Jon (edited 02-18-2010).]

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post02-18-2010 11:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by leftu2:

I have the chance to get a 2000 3.8 buick n/a motor for free.
Is it possible to swap the intake,computer and wire harness out
for the gm super charged set up and still use the n/a long block?
Also, can you use the stock exhaust manifolds or do you have to
get the headers?


Keep the motor NA and build off it gearing toward doing a turbo in the future. They make some nice HP upgrade parts for the NA block that will give it that extra HP.
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Justinbart
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Report this Post02-18-2010 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartDirect Link to This Post
For about the same effort and a little more money you can bolt on a turbo and have alot more power.

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fierosound
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Report this Post02-18-2010 12:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierosoundDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by leftu2:

I have the chance to get a 2000 3.8 buick n/a motor for free.



By the time you build/rebuild all the above that people have suggested, it won't be "free" or cheap anymore.
You'd be better off, and save money in the long run, by finding and buying a good 3800 S/C to start with.


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My World of Wheels Winners (Click on links below)

3.4L Supercharged 87 GT and Super Duty 4 Indy #163

[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 02-18-2010).]

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87antuzzi
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Report this Post02-18-2010 02:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 87antuzziSend a Private Message to 87antuzziDirect Link to This Post
Turbo it...
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Genopsyde
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Report this Post02-18-2010 03:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GenopsydeClick Here to visit Genopsyde's HomePageSend a Private Message to GenopsydeDirect Link to This Post
+1 on the turbo

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Logan
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Report this Post02-18-2010 09:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LoganSend a Private Message to LoganDirect Link to This Post
im gonna turbo mine this summer
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Report this Post02-18-2010 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttDirect Link to This Post
I'm doing this right now, and like others said, unless you have a donor L67 to work with, you might want to go turbo.

My GTP broke a crank so I'm using a NA bottom end.

If you can wait to get a good deal on an L67, might as well just do that instead of a good deal on an NA.
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Myke
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Report this Post02-19-2010 12:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for MykeSend a Private Message to MykeDirect Link to This Post
Correct me if I am wrong...

When I first bought my '06 GP (in '06), I was told (by a few different shops) that I would have to swap the engine AND the ECM if I wanted the SC because the two engines (though similar) are not the same, especially in the "engine management" department. Otherwise, I could strip it down to the block, rebuild it for the SC, and get a new ECM. (series III)

Am I wrong?

Myke
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Justinbart
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Report this Post02-19-2010 01:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JustinbartSend a Private Message to JustinbartDirect Link to This Post
The pcm would just need to be flashed with careful attention to the high compression tune.

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MstangsBware
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Report this Post02-19-2010 12:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for MstangsBwareSend a Private Message to MstangsBwareDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Myke:

Correct me if I am wrong...

When I first bought my '06 GP (in '06), I was told (by a few different shops) that I would have to swap the engine AND the ECM if I wanted the SC because the two engines (though similar) are not the same, especially in the "engine management" department. Otherwise, I could strip it down to the block, rebuild it for the SC, and get a new ECM. (series III)

Am I wrong?

Myke


Doing a top swap is common in the GP world and many have done then putting down nice HP #s. Swap from the heads up, get a tune on the PCM and call it a day. But like i said to the other guy, go turbo......

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Khaos88GT
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Report this Post02-19-2010 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Khaos88GTSend a Private Message to Khaos88GTDirect Link to This Post
I'm in the middle of rebuilding an 05 L26 into an L67 right now. My situation is different from yours though in that I already had an complete L67 so I already have all the parts. What everyone is telling you is true it will cost you more and tuning must be done carefully. However I will pint out that the L26 comes with powdered metal rods and the lifters between years are all the same........which are also the same lifters used in the LS engines. GM kinda has a thing about putting those lifters in anything needing hydraulic rollers lifters. The good thing is if the LS7 with 505hp is just fine with the Delco HL124 lifters I dang sure aint spending the money on OE-R lifters especially considering I've read about those breaking one to many times.
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