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Bulletproofing Your Transaxle by ClayTonto
Started on: 02-17-2010 02:31 AM
Replies: 13
Last post by: ClayTonto on 02-18-2010 10:53 PM
ClayTonto
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Report this Post02-17-2010 02:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ClayTontoSend a Private Message to ClayTontoDirect Link to This Post
I have noticed an ever increasing number of Fiero swaps using higher and higher power levels. As we continue to push the envelope, with all the boosted 3800s and LS options available, tranny selection is still very limited. Stock transaxle swaps are not going to handle the power levels we have in our minds. So what do you do?

For the purpose of drag racing, the popular choice seems to be going with an Auto. A beefed up 4T65e HD from ZZPerformance or similar is a good example. Since there are plenty of threads on that, I would like to concentrate on those of us who prefer the metallic raw driving experience of Manuals.

If you don’t want to do extensive mods and you are only making moderate power levels, there are a few things to do. The following should be good for an increase in wear resistance.

- Replace worn motor mounts and trans mounts with Poly ones. Any uncontrolled movement is bad and Poly absorbs shock load well. Solid mounts are a cheap alternative for many engine swaps but they can slightly increase shock load levels.

- A good synthetic fluid is a must. Redline produces a line of lubricants designed for high load applications called ShockProof gear oil. It has a simulated 250 weight with the viscosity of a 90 weight. The draw back is that it can decrease the life of your synchronizers when used alone. There is something you can do make the synchros compatible, which I will get to shortly.

- Clutch selection is vital. A clutch should be matched to your trannie’s torque capacity and/or engine output. It is a safety margin that you’re looking for. A full metallic faced, solid hub Spec Stage 5 clutch with a Super Clamping pressure plate, capable of handling 700 Ft lbs, would be a bad choice for a 400 Ft lb engine. The on/off characteristics of a mismatched clutch will cause unnecessary shock load wear. If sized properly the clutch might slip and save your tranny in a high torque high traction situation.

Before I continue, I would like address the misconceptions of some people when it comes to factory torque ratings. Let’s use the G6 6-Speed with a GM torque rating of 290 Ft lbs. as an example. That means that the trans is rated to handle 290 Ft lbs of tantrum-throwing teenager abuse for the warranty required 100,000 miles. Applying 390 Ft lbs to the 6-Speed will not kill it (I would have already destroyed mine by now if it would) but it will most certainly reduce the expected life of 100,000 miles to probably closer to 50,000 miles if abused. Higher consistent torque applications will exponentially reduce the life of the tranny until the point of immediate failure. The 6-Speed could probably even handle 600+ Ft lbs for at least one or two good romps before grenading. So, keeping the trans alive for as long as possible under high torque loads should be the goal.

So if you decided that you want to push things to the max and you are ready to get inside the tranny, here are some tips.

- Selecting a low mileage or new trans is first. If you can’t get one, a high mileage one may work, but you never know how much life is left in it. A thorough inspection and worn part replacement may be required

- All parts should be cleaned and the factory gears should be deburred with a scotchbrite wheel.

- The trans case and internals need to be Cryo-treated to improve the internal tensile strength of the metal.

- Next, the gears and shafts should be two-step shotpeened. First using a 330 size shot and then a 220 sized shot to get into the valleys. An R65 steel shot with an almen intensity of .025 or higher should be used.

- The gears and shafts could then be REM treated, which is an Isotropic super-finishing process that smoothes the microscopic surface imperfections.

- An expensive final process that will effectively double your useable torque capacity is a process that a company in Southern California does. http://www.wpctreatment.com/ You will need to treat ever metal part including your case and synchros for maximum durability. As a bonus, the characteristics of this process will make your synchros engage smoother and compatible with the Redline fluid.

All the above are to decrease wear and friction while increasing tensile strength. To maximize efforts, the tranny should be professionally blueprinted and reassembled with tighter thrust bearing clearances than factory to minimize axial gear spread caused by helical cut gears. The WPC process above will also help with this, reducing the chance of splitting the case.

I did the best I could to condense this info to a helpful quick reference.
Thanks for reading.

Sources:
http://www.taylor-race.com/index.cfm Quaife LSDs and blueprinting services
Sentra SE-R Article
http://www.evansperformance.com/ Cryo REM
http://www.peentech.com/ Shotpeening

------------------
87 GT Tilt Clip-Widebody-RamAir-Fastback-GlassHatch Powered by SBC 383 6-speed w/ NOS
Build Thread

Goals in Life:
1. Get Married..........Check!
2. Build Dream Car..........Check!
3. Get Wife to Come Back...

[This message has been edited by ClayTonto (edited 02-18-2010).]

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Isolde
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Report this Post02-17-2010 06:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
You'd definitely want to do any shot-peening before any cryo-ing, and probably the super-finishing before cryo-ing also. and don't forget the rare and expensive NSX 5-speed. With just cryo, these can hold up to 1000 rwhp on sticky street radials. ( Not drag radials ) But if you want this trans, plan on doing the conversion yourself, because WCF's prices are unreasonably high. They want $450 just for the adapter plate. Fieroguru could do it for $50, if he was doing it for himself. I'd do it for $100 shipped, if I had an NSX bellhousing pattern to work from. And that's just one example. It's the same way with everything WCF lists for the NSX conversion. In later years the NSX was converted to 6 speeds, but this reduced strength.
As for the F40, I think you're being pessimistic. I fully expect one of mine to survive 400+ ft-lbs into it for well past 100,000 miles. And most Fieros built to that power level will never see another 50,000 miles. My other F40 is going to get fed 700 hp, and if it fails, it will get replaced with a cryoed NSX 5-speed. But that will reduce engine life and hurt gas mileage, due to gearing better suited to an 8000 rpm N/A 4-cylinder.
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TopNotch
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Report this Post02-17-2010 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TopNotchClick Here to visit TopNotch's HomePageSend a Private Message to TopNotchDirect Link to This Post
For treating your transmission and engine parts, check out these folks.
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Turbogoose
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Report this Post02-17-2010 11:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TurbogooseSend a Private Message to TurbogooseDirect Link to This Post
can CRYO-REM be done at home?
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ClayTonto
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Report this Post02-17-2010 11:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ClayTontoSend a Private Message to ClayTontoDirect Link to This Post
Turbogoose, you can't, but it is not that exspensive to have done. Less than $300 at Evan's.

[This message has been edited by ClayTonto (edited 02-18-2010).]

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Dracor
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Report this Post02-18-2010 12:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DracorSend a Private Message to DracorDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ClayTonto:

- An expensive final process that will effectively double your useable torque capacity is a process that a company in Southern California does. http://www.wpctreatment.com/ You will need to treat ever metal part including your case and synchros for maximum durability. As a bonus, the characteristics of this process will make your synchros engage smoother and compatible with the Redline fluid.



Would you happen to know how much it would be to treat a tranny with that process? One place said "slightly" more than cryo.

------------------
'84 3800SC, XP cam, 3.2 pully, HPTuners, N* TB, 4sp, SPEC 3+ clutch, Aluminium flywheel, pacesetter headers, F355 body kit, weight reduction

[This message has been edited by Dracor (edited 02-18-2010).]

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Will
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Report this Post02-18-2010 04:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ClayTonto:
- The trans case and internals need to be Cryo-treated to improve the internal tensile strength of the metal.

- Next, the gears and shafts should be two-step shotpeened. First using a 330 size shot and then a 220 sized shot to get into the valleys. An R65 steel shot with an almen intensity of .025 or higher should be used.



What's your source for the shot-peen info?

Cryo treatment doesn't affect aluminum in any substantial way. Treating the case is a waste of money.

Absolutely minimizing flywheel weight reduces transient loading and increases transmission life.

I second the questions about order of operations.
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Isolde
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Report this Post02-18-2010 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
I figured the aluminum flywheel was obvious.
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ccfiero350
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Report this Post02-18-2010 06:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ccfiero350Send a Private Message to ccfiero350Direct Link to This Post
You could also go outside the box and us a F35 from the SS cobalt and HHR. Some of them come with a limited slip diff. The case is about a 1/3 larger then the 282 and the axles from the cobalt SS fits our fiero hubs.

You can pick them up with axles for less then you would spend just getting a 282 rebuilt.

I've seen 3 blown 282 cases that cracked on the speed-o side of the housing. So I would assume if you could get stronger gears, how are you going to hold them together?

------------------
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Isolde
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Report this Post02-18-2010 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for IsoldeSend a Private Message to IsoldeDirect Link to This Post
the F35 requires the same axles as the F40, and is not as strong as the F40. If you kill your Fiero trans, go F40. If you kill that, go NSX. If you kill that, go G-Force. If you kill that, then pull some of your spark plugs, and leave them out, permanently.
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ClayTonto
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Report this Post02-18-2010 08:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ClayTontoSend a Private Message to ClayTontoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dracor:
Would you happen to know how much it would be to treat a tranny with that process? One place said "slightly" more than cryo.


I was quoted $700 for my F40. A Tremec 6-Speed done in 06' was $900. It is not cheap.
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Report this Post02-18-2010 10:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Has anyone experimented with a transaxle girdle similar to ones available for Vettes?


I've seen some failures that look like side loading cause the case to split. This might help with that if there's enough room to get any meaningful bracing on there.

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Report this Post02-18-2010 10:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieroWannaBeSend a Private Message to FieroWannaBeDirect Link to This Post


[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 02-18-2010).]

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ClayTonto
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Report this Post02-18-2010 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ClayTontoSend a Private Message to ClayTontoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
What's your source for the shot-peen info?


I tracked down the article includung the Shotpeening info. Sources have been cited in first post edits.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Cryo treatment doesn't affect aluminum in any substantial way. Treating the case is a waste of money.


This was a suggestion from Tina Grohmann's trans builder. Since her Getrag is still alive and my Cryo shop only charged $20 extra, I feel it couldm't hurt.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Absolutely minimizing flywheel weight reduces transient loading and increases transmission life.


Agreed.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I second the questions about order of operations.


Treat the metal from the inside out. This was the method recommended by the Cryo shop for the reason that you could blast it harder during shotpeening. I don't know what intensity you would use on the un-cryoed metal. I doubt it really matters on the REM, so long as it's post 'peening and pre WPC. Evan's does CRYO-REM not REM-CRYO, but they don't do inhouse 'peening. So I have elected to pay the extra shipping to do Cryo-shotpeening-REM-WPC. You could save time and money by shotpeening first.

But, really, all of the treatments leading up to WPC are questionable.
The NSX guys swear by it.
The LoveFab NSX with deburring and WPC:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtM-MVfTumE
Some NSX Prime threads in the subject:
http://www.nsxprime.com/for...wthread.php?t=112019
http://www.nsxprime.com/for...wthread.php?t=128852
http://www.nsxprime.com/for...wthread.php?t=124424

If you decide to go with the NSX 5-speed, there is alot of aftermarket $upport.
The only thing I don't like about the NSX trans is the long shafts allow too much flex in third gear causing axial spread. The F40 has three main shafts shorter than the two long NSX shafts. The F40 case is thick and strong in the areas behind the thrust bearings, it is well reinforced in the differential area, and was designed nearly 15 years later. I have two F40s; One stock unit to abuse to find the weak areas, and one getting the royal treatment. But, after over 16 months of abuse behind my 383 it still feels solid.
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