Does anyone have any specs on either or both?
I'm curious as to what they did to the Allante to make it pass emissions without EGR.

Thanks!

Heh...
Nobody?

Oh well...

I don't know of anyone who is running or has run the Allante memcal or anything from the programming. I have no idea on cam specs.

You might try ordering up a memcal from these guys though. Take a look, or have someone look, and see what different in the chip.

allantesource

Dick is a great guy to work with and they have everything in the way of Allante's. His prices are very resonable and I wouldn't expect just a memcal to be worth much. You could probably get a cam there for very little also.

You could also get the allante bin files from tunercat and check everything out yourself. Cost is ~20.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-17-2009).]

Cool!
I hugely appreciate all the help.

I've purchased an Allante definition file, and got a copy of the Allante .bin. (Dick at allantesource, and TC both freakin' rock!)

I have put together a hybrid bin using most of of the Allante's maps, but using the Deville BPW and a few other things.
I'm going to try it in the car in just a few.

The cam is a huge question because the Allante manages to do away with the EGR.
I'm thinking that it must have considerable overlap. Or maybe it's just indexed "retarded", relative to the 4.9 cam.
Right now, I'm running 8 degrees base timing. (The Allante calls for 10.)
If I still have a bunch of spark rattle, I'll know I'm missing something.

FWIW... I've heard various PPHs quoted for the Allante injectors.
One of the board's more highly respected technical folks said 17. (Which sort of makes sense, based only on displacement, as compared to the 4.9.)
An internet source that I found said 21. (Which sounds a bit high.)
Dick said 19, and he's in a position to know.
Think I'm going to run with that one, since the Allante and the 4.9 are both rated at 200HP. (And since my new injectors are also 19s.)
Depending on how the Allante intake flows, I might end up needing 21s. Depends upon what the BLMs look like. I'll probably need a wideband, eventually.

Still learning.

BBL...

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-17-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Does anyone have any specs on either or both?

I don't have anything on the cam specs for the 4.5L, but here is what little I've found for the 4.9L, and on three different Delta cams for it:*

code:

---

                             4.9L    1st Dur. Level  2nd Dur. Level  3rd Dur. Level
                          Stock Cam    Delta Cam       Delta Cam       Delta Cam
                          ---------    ---------       ---------       ---------                         
Int/Exh Duration @ 0.050"    198          205             215             220
Int/Exh Lift                .384"        .480"           .455"           .498"          
Lift/Duration Ratio          1.94         2.34            2.12            2.26

---

Despite the lack of more detailed specs, you can see that by far the most conservative 4.9L cam appears to be the stock one, something that probably should be expected in a cam originally designed for Cadillac customers.

_______
*Source: Various contributors to the thread titled, "4.9 cam profile- stock vs. Delta" ( https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...2/HTML/100898-4.html )

Again... Thanks for sharing the info!
I'd forgot that that thread even existed.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-17-2009).]

Just got off the phone with Ken.

According to what he read from the cam he has...

Int. 196 @ .050"
.235" lobe lift
.382" valve lift

Ext. 199 @ .050"
.247" lobe
.395" valve

Very close to the 4.9 specs. The cam is phisically identical. This is for 91-92 4.5L allante motor. Hope this is some help.

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-17-2009).]

Interesting.
Thanks!
I wonder if the extra bit of lift on the exhaust side has any real world effect. I wouldn't think so, but...

The car runs... okay.
Still just a little bit of spark rattle.
Also seems to be running out of steam (or gas) on the top end. It's a bit "raggedy" sounding towards redline. (Either that or I'm floating the valves at 4800. )
One other "gotcha" (which may explain some of what I'm seeing) is that it's running in open loop. My O2 sensor shat itself last week, so I had it unplugged.
Bought a new one last night.

More info to follow.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-18-2009).]

Bad O2's can cause all sorts of problems depending on the failure mode. Anytime your running in open loop the PCM is running preset fuel and timing tables. Depending on what those presets are you could be running rich or lean at any given RPM. Since you don't have open loop tables designed for the exact configuration you are using (cause they don't exist yet ), you can bet they are off. The allante tables with the 4.9 injectors should be pretty close though. I'm curious to see how much better it works with the new O2.

I need to replace my O2 again also. The last Delco one I picked up ended up being a bosch in the box. I didn't realize it til I started having problems again. I also need to rebuild and clean the injectors. It seems this motor is pretty sensitive to both of these parts in particular. Keep working at it, your getting there.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I need to replace my O2 again also. The last Delco one I picked up ended up being a bosch in the box. I didn't realize it til I started having problems again....

That wouldn't surprise me.
My last O2 sensor was a Delco. Lasted less than two years.
The one I just bought is an NGK/NTK. (NTK?!) Comes with a Lifetime Warranty from Advance Auto. Hard to beat that.

I'm curious to see what the BLMs look lke with a functioning O2, and the Allante mappng.
I'm thinking it'll be a bit lean, across the board. (Based upon the premise that the Allante also runs 19# injectors, with a 4.5.)
We shall see.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-18-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: That wouldn't surprise me. My last O2 sensor was a Delco. Lasted less than two years. The one I just bought is an NGK/NTK. (NTK?!) Comes with a Lifetime Warranty from Advance Auto. Hard to beat that. I'm curious to see what the BLMs look lke with a functioning O2, and the Allante mappng. I'm thinking it'll be a bit lean, across the board. (Based upon the premise that the Allante also runs 19# injectors, with a 4.5.) We shall see.

raydar, what did the allante VE tables look like in comparison to the 4.9L's tables? what about the timing tables? also, what year allante bin are you working with?

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 12-19-2009).]

quote Originally posted by stickpony: raydar, what did the allante VE tables look like in comparison to the 4.9L's tables? what about the timing tables? also, what year allante bin are you working with?

I'm using a 91 AUMF bin.
The Allante VE tables are lower on the low end and higher on the high end. No real surprise there.
Seems like the Allante timing was a bit more conservative. (But then the Allante is supposed to run 10 degrees base timing as opposed to the 4.9's 8 degrees.)
PM sent.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-20-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I'm using a 91 AUMF bin. The Allante VE tables are lower on the low end and higher on the high end. No real surprise there. Seems like the Allante timing was a bit more conservative. (But then the Allante is supposed to run 10 degrees base timing as opposed to the 4.9's 8 degrees.) PM sent.

yeah...this should be fun Robert Cope and I are going to begin digging into tuning his built-up 4.9L citation x-11 after the holidays...for his setup: N* pistions, .500 lift delta cam, SBC intake valves, P&P heads, Allante intake, roller rockers, etc... it will needs more agressive timing and corrected VE tables to get a solid tune, sicne the engien breaths soo much better than a stock 4.9L...the VE tables provide a very good starting point to tune it, since the curve will matchup to the allante's two-stage throttle body configuration much better...

Okay. Just took it for its first ride with a good O2.
It's *damn close*, for a SWAG.
BLMs seem to hover around 126 at anything more than closed throttle.
Didn't get a chance to check it at all RPMs since I was watching the road and didn't have logging enabled.
As soon as I hit PE, I get what sounds like a tiny bit of spark rattle. Hard to tell.
Still need to play just a bit, but I'm very encouraged.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Okay. Just took it for its first ride with a good O2. It's *damn close*, for a SWAG. BLMs seem to hover around 126 at anything more than closed throttle. Didn't get a chance to check it at all RPMs since I was watching the road and didn't have logging enabled. As soon as I hit PE, I get what sounds like a tiny bit of spark rattle. Hard to tell. Still need to play just a bit, but I'm very encouraged.

I thought it would be pretty close. The BLM @ 126 above idle is the O2 reading rich, but very slightly. The PCM is pulling some fuel back. If you get anything logged post it up, or send it to me and I'll get it up for you. Congrats! Very exciting time for you.

Well...
I am, for all intents and purposes, done.
I fattened up the fuel in the midrange just a bit.
I thought I heard the previously mentioned spark rattle as PE kicks in, but it went away. Couldn't get it to do it any more.
BLMs are running from 126 - 130, depending.
I'm sure that I'll continue to tweak it a bit, and probably still ought to dyno and wideband it, but for now I'm really happy with how it's worked out.
It's waaaaay closer to "right" than my 3.4, with a lot less effort.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 12-29-2009).]

Those BLM's are perfect! 128 means absolutely no fuel correction being done by the PCM. Great job!

What program did you use for the changes? Burning your own chips or using flashable chips?

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 12-30-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Those BLM's are perfect! 128 means absolutely no fuel correction being done by the PCM. Great job! What program did you use for the changes? Burning your own chips or using flashable chips?

Thanks!

Using Tunercat.
The chips are 27SF512s. At least I don't have to run them through the UV eraser like the 2732s.
I'm using a Pocket Programmer 2.
Cheap as heck, but I understand that they have a limited useful life. It's already starting to get intermittant.

Cool! Thats exactly what I'm gearing up to do... only I'll be going with a different programmer.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: Cool! Thats exactly what I'm gearing up to do... only I'll be going with a different programmer.

Have fun!

Be sure that you use the correct 4.9 definition file for whatever broadcast code you are tuning.
There were 4 of them at last count.

My plan was to transfer the files from the chips I have onto the new chips. That way there is no question that they should work. Apparently there is a $10 adapter that works with the programmer that allows this.

I have one memcal from stickpony and one from fieroaddiction. I'd like to play with both and see what I can come up with and see if factory tuning really is that much different from the "fastchips" stuff. Should give me a couple slightly different fuel/timing maps to play with at the very least.

4.5's sound cooler. Shorter stroke, rev better. I love my 4.5 5spd Formula.

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: 4.5's sound cooler. Shorter stroke, rev better. I love my 4.5 5spd Formula.

Possibly so.
But I'm amazed how good my 4.9 / Allante setup sounds through a single straight through chambered muffler, with no cat.

And it's never run this good before.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Possibly so. But I'm amazed how good my 4.9 / Allante setup sounds through a single straight through chambered muffler, with no cat. And it's never run this good before.

The next time I am over at Sam's, I'll have to come by and check it out. I am sure my wife won't mind if we get a little side tracked on our shopping trip.

quote Originally posted by Cooter: The next time I am over at Sam's, I'll have to come by and check it out. I am sure my wife won't mind if we get a little side tracked on our shopping trip.

By all means!
I'm 10 minutes from there. Y'all are more than welcome. Or I'll come and meet you if you'd like.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-01-2010).]

That's interesting, you're comment on the no-cat and sound. I didn't like how my 4.5 started getting the "throaty" sound around 2500 rpms. So I picked up one of those OBX high flow cats, popped it in. Wow, much nicer and quieter now. I'm the type I don't want to hear my Fiero idle if possible. Love the V8 sound, just quietly.

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: That's interesting, you're comment on the no-cat and sound. I didn't like how my 4.5 started getting the "throaty" sound around 2500 rpms. So I picked up one of those OBX high flow cats, popped it in. Wow, much nicer and quieter now. I'm the type I don't want to hear my Fiero idle if possible. Love the V8 sound, just quietly.

You'd hate mine.
So would my neighbors if I drove it to work on a regular basis. (I leave the house at 6:00.)
It's loud enough that I didn't want to drive it anywhere on New Years Eve. Didn't want to attract any attention.

The only thing I can compare the sound to is maybe a Camaro with a Borla system. (Same firing order, and all.)

Gotta put the cat back on it. (Good thing it was off. It was running so rich, for a bit, that I probably would have killed it, otherwise.)

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-01-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: 4.5's sound cooler. Shorter stroke, rev better. I love my 4.5 5spd Formula.

hey dan, is your 4.5L a PFI or TBI?

quote Originally posted by Dan_Seattle: That's interesting, you're comment on the no-cat and sound. I didn't like how my 4.5 started getting the "throaty" sound around 2500 rpms. So I picked up one of those OBX high flow cats, popped it in. Wow, much nicer and quieter now. I'm the type I don't want to hear my Fiero idle if possible. Love the V8 sound, just quietly.

I'm with you on this one. My 4.9 has a cat, muffler and 4 resonators in the tips. Sounds great but not excessive til you want it to be. The load pedal really lives up to its name.

I also leave for work at around 6. So far no complaints on noise... not like that would stop me anyway.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: I'm using a 91 AUMF bin. The Allante VE tables are lower on the low end and higher on the high end. No real surprise there. Seems like the Allante timing was a bit more conservative. (But then the Allante is supposed to run 10 degrees base timing as opposed to the 4.9's 8 degrees.) PM sent.

Update...
It appears that the 4.9 and the Allante both call for 10 degrees base timing.
I read a comment on one of the Cadillac forums, regarding the Allante, that said, "10 degrees is recommended, but they run better at 12 degrees."

I figured, WTH... The worst that will happen is that it will rattle, and I'll have to back it off, some.
It doesn't rattle, even at 12 degrees. (The stock 4.9 setup rattled with whatever setting it came with. I never checked it.)
I might try a little bit more, and see what happens.

This also gives me a bit of confidence that I might be able to pass emissions without the EGR.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-15-2010).]

Been following this with great interest. I have my 4.9 with and Allante Intake and did an install for a friend in Oregon. Mine has always run a bit rich and my friends is a bit richer than mine. I am glad to hear that yours is running good.

You have a PM

Joe Sokol

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

quote Originally posted by Raydar: This also gives me a bit of confidence that I might be able to pass emissions without the EGR.

I don't think you have anything to worry about there. The allante was designed to run without an EGR. To make things better you don't even really need a cat to pass emmisions with a 4.9. Its a very clean running engine when its in good shape. Stop worrying about it!

Joe, Check your email.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I don't think you have anything to worry about there. The allante was designed to run without an EGR. To make things better you don't even really need a cat to pass emmisions with a 4.9. Its a very clean running engine when its in good shape. Stop worrying about it!

I'm not really worried about it.
Just attempting to be prepared, and trying to have a plan "B", just in case. It's served me fairly well, up to this point.

Okay... Spoke too soon.
It was in the 60s today. Drove the car to the club meeting. Pinged like hell.
Backed it off a few degrees for the drive home.

This is gonna take some more work.

Just out of curiosity what grade of fuel do you run in your 4.9. I run mine at 10 degrees and premium fuel. I have never had mine ping (rattle).

Joe Sokol

------------------
85 SE Daily driver with a 3.4 DOHC OBD II
88 Formula/GT 4.9 Allante Intake (My Baby)

I run premium as well.
I usually use Chevron since that's what's close. Think this tank was Exxon, though.