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Natural gas, Propane & Hydrogen by engine man
Started on: 09-20-2009 03:52 PM
Replies: 40
Last post by: wftb on 09-25-2009 10:34 AM
engine man
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Report this Post09-20-2009 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
I found this web site http://www.poweredbypropane.net/index.php for converting to Propane and the kit alows you to run gas or propane . I think it could be adapted to the other two gases nat gas and Hydrogen but what i realy want to know is how much compression can be run do any of you know I will ask them at the companie . I am thinking it may be the ticket for High copression engine and it burns supper clean for those California guys
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Report this Post09-20-2009 03:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ray bSend a Private Message to ray bDirect Link to This Post
propane will allow near alcohol C/R 13-14 to 1
I donot know about NG or H

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engine man
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Report this Post09-20-2009 04:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Cool be nice for turbo then for turning up the boost 20 PSI

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 09-20-2009).]

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Report this Post09-20-2009 06:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for White 84 SESend a Private Message to White 84 SEDirect Link to This Post
Seems like propane can be used for enrichment. I think GM even has a kit.

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ghost187x
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Report this Post09-20-2009 06:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xDirect Link to This Post
whats the average price of propane in gallons compared to unleaded-premium gas per gallon? i thought propane was natural gas... eh sort of.. bleh
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Report this Post09-20-2009 06:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xDirect Link to This Post

ghost187x

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According to this article, liquid propane is 4% less power than gasoline. However, LPG has 110-120 octane rating. Higher compression=more power right? therefore, it can overcome the 4% deficit.
http://wps.com/LPG/WVU-review.html
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engine man
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Report this Post09-20-2009 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
I think it is about $2.20 and depends on where you live
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Report this Post09-20-2009 09:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierosoundClick Here to visit fierosound's HomePageSend a Private Message to fierosoundDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by ghost187x:

According to this article, liquid propane is 4% less power than gasoline. However, LPG has 110-120 octane rating. Higher compression=more power right? therefore, it can overcome the 4% deficit.



Yes, if your rebuild the engine to a higher compression ratio to take advantage of the higher octane. Most people just bolt the things on and live with the 4% drop.

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engine man
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Report this Post09-20-2009 11:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Natural Gas has even a higher octan of 130 but unlike propane it will dissapat into the air instead of setteling like in a basement waiting for a spark
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Report this Post09-21-2009 08:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xDirect Link to This Post
there is a machine that you hook up to your house to pump natural gas from your gas company. I forgot what it is called, but it was mainly advertised for people who owned the natural gas honda vehicles, such as the civic and accord.
What about a natural gas conversion??
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Report this Post09-21-2009 11:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ltlfrariClick Here to visit ltlfrari's HomePageSend a Private Message to ltlfrariDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

Natural Gas has even a higher octan of 130 but unlike propane it will dissapat into the air instead of setteling like in a basement waiting for a spark


Natural gas is heavier than air. It will just sit in the floor. Regular coal gas will dissipate.

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engine man
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Report this Post09-21-2009 11:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
No the propane is heaver than air and natural gas is lighter go to the link that was posted by ghost187x it tells all about the two gasses

The specific gravity of natural gas relative to air (air = 1.00) is 0.56 to 0.62 depending on gas composition. This indicates that natural gas is lighter than air. In the event of a natural gas leak, the gas will rise and dissipate given open conditions. Propane vapors are heavier than air (specific gravity = 1.5) thus propane will stay low, against the ground and may collect in sewers and other low areas before ultimately dispersing into the air with the aid of wind or ventilation systems.

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 09-21-2009).]

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spark1
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Report this Post09-21-2009 12:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for spark1Send a Private Message to spark1Direct Link to This Post
Cars converted from gasoline to Propane must be periodically switched to gasoline. On the dual-fuel F150 I drove, one tank of gasoline per month was recommended. I usually ran one until dry, switched to the other, ran that one almost dry and then filled both and switched again.

When running on Propane the loss of power was noticible when passing or climbing hills. Around town there wasn't much difference. The loss in MPG when using Propane offset the lower price so it was a wash. The weight of the extra tank and fuel also decreased milage. Plus 1/3 of the cargo bay was lost to the Propane tank. And I couldn't install any type of cover to secure the bed.

I don't see how a reasonable size Propane tank could be fitted in a Fiero.

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engine man
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Report this Post09-21-2009 06:11 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Hmmm that paper said it should only have a 4 precent loss and on 300 HP that would be 12 HP but on paper and real world are two differnt things
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Report this Post09-22-2009 04:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by spark1:

Cars converted from gasoline to Propane must be periodically switched to gasoline. On the dual-fuel F150 I drove, one tank of gasoline per month was recommended. I usually ran one until dry, switched to the other, ran that one almost dry and then filled both and switched again.

When running on Propane the loss of power was noticible when passing or climbing hills. Around town there wasn't much difference. The loss in MPG when using Propane offset the lower price so it was a wash. The weight of the extra tank and fuel also decreased milage. Plus 1/3 of the cargo bay was lost to the Propane tank. And I couldn't install any type of cover to secure the bed.

I don't see how a reasonable size Propane tank could be fitted in a Fiero.


hi , my Fiero is running since 40000km on propane.
on 2nd site of this thread is my conversion :

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/069714-2.html

atm iam swapping out the duke for an 3.2v6 ( stroked and bored 2.8 ) .
It will become a sequential LPG system with 6 propane injectors.

And its not true that i have to drive from time to time with gasoline , i can start the engine with propane too if i want to .
But to keep the gasoline system clean i start on gasoline atm and drive first mile on it .

tank :




tank volume is 45l useable are 42l whats almost same size like standard tank.
fuelconsumption is now after some setup sessions 8.5L / 100km = 27,67 mpg whats not bad for an automatik L4
if u keep in mind that propane has 15% less energy per liter than gasoline.

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engine man
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Report this Post09-22-2009 06:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
the engine you ar building just going to be NA no turbo . why I ask is I would think that you would want to take advantage of the higher octan of the propane . if you turbo it you could make it so the turbo only gose to like 8 psi of boost on gas but when on propane it would go to 16 psi of boost
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Report this Post09-22-2009 08:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ghost187xSend a Private Message to ghost187xDirect Link to This Post
im not too smart on compression and forced induction, but i think you can achieve more boost. The LNF 2.0L turbo engine from GM has about 16-18psi of boost right? the evo viii or higher has about 18psi with low compression. Albeit these are dohc engines. If you gave propane to those engines id say double the boost! 32-36psi of boost. what you think?

What about direct injection engines, such as the 3.6L vvt dohc gm motor? would the propane conversion work on that? or only sequential fuel injection setups?
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engine man
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Report this Post09-22-2009 09:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
I think it would work on the 3.6 vvt but i would ask the kit maker first

http://www.cira.wvu.edu/afvtp/AFV_proprev.html Detailed descrption of LPG as a motor fuel. Root dirs contain other alt fuel info.
WVU's AFVTP - Propane Review
West Virginia University's
Alternative Fuel Vehicle Training Program

Return to AFVTP Home Page.
INTRODUCTION

GENERAL INFORMATION

LPG (Liqufied Petroleum Gas) is a petroleum derived, colorless gass, typically comprised of primarily either propane, butane, or a combination of the two. LPG has been and continues to be the most widely used alternative motor fuel to gasoline and diesel on a worldwide basis. The acceptance it has enjoyed over the years ensures the place of LPG in clean air scenarios worldwide. Currently, (1992) there are over 500,000 vehicles using propane gas in the United States, most are spark-ignition engines adopted to use either propane or gasoline, and over three million worldwide.

The term propane will be used to refer to LPG.

LPG IN U.S.A

Propane fuel for vehicles is actually a mixture of various hydrocarbons which are gasses at atmospheric pressure and temperature but which liquify at higher pressures. It is one of several mixtures referred to as liquifed petroleum gases (LPG) and is named for the major constituent, propane.

Virtually all U.S, LPG fuel vehicles use propane, thus LPG generally refers to propane gas whose chemical composition is C3H8. LPG is a natural derivative of both natural gas and crude oil. In the United States, approximately 30 % of the LPG is generated during oil refining and 70 % is from natural gas processing and reserves. Domestic production accounts for over 85 % of the LPG supply [10].

In the United States there are more than 10,000 retail propane refueling stations, while in Canada there are about 5,000 stations. Ferrelgass, the second largest propane retailer in the US, operates a fleet of 2,400 vehicles. Of those 2,300 are dedicated propane vehicles, consisting of medium-duty trucks and light-duty pickups. Schimidt reports that Runzheimer International conducted a survey of 118 fleet managers with an avarage of 449 vehicles in each fleet, propane was by far the most frequently named alternative fuel as shown by the results given in Table 1.

Table 1. Alternative fuels selected by fleet managers ( Percent )

Propane CNG Electric Methanol

Business 86 14 29 0

Utility 71 36 36 14

Government 77 22 33 11

In the United States, the propane industry has attemped to adopt an automotive propane standard known as HD5. [1] Fuel for spark ignition engines must meet certain requirements as set out in the HD5 specification. The standard is not universally observed. Because, the concentration of propane as high as virtually 100 %, to as low as 50 % in certain locations. Much of the remainder of the gas is butane and some other hydrocarbons, both saturated and unsaturated. The utilization of LPG as an automotive fuel varied very widely from one country to another, depending on the cost and availability of the fuel in relation to alternative fuels, notably gasoline and diesel, Table 2.

Table 2. LPG Composition ( % by volume ) as Automotive Fuel in Europe

Country Propane Butane

Austria 50 50

Belgium 50 50

Denmark 50 50

France 35 65

Greece 20 80

Ireland 100 _

Italy 25 75

Netherlands 50 50

Spain 30 70

Sweden 95 5

United Kingdom 100 _

Germany 90 10

Source: Urban 1982

HD5 requires minimum propane content of 90 % and propylene content of less than 5 % (volume basis). The remainder is normally n-butane,with isobutane and butanes also present. The limitation on propylene and other propane unsaturates results its low octane number that means low knock resistance, see Table 3. A second cocern with propylene is its photochemical reactivity, which is higher than that of propane. This could be an important factor in formation of smog. Propylene does not occur in LPG obtained from natural gas processing plants but it is found in the LPG resulting from petroleum refinery operations. The minimum propane requirement arises from the need to have sufficient vapor pressure, even at very low temperatures, to deliver fuel to the engine. Vapor pressure of butane is considerably less than that of propane at any given temperature and will not provide adequate pressure for proper equipment operation below about 18-19 C (a minimum of about 0.2 Mpa absolute pressure is required for satisfactory operation of delivery system ).

Table 3. Octane numbers of LPG Components.

Component Research Motor Est. max. ratio comp

propane 111.5 100 11:1

n-butane 95 92 8:1

isobutane 100.4 99 9:1

propylene 100.2 85 7.5:1

n-butane-1 100 80 6.5:1

n-butane-2 101 83 7:1

regular gasoline 92.95 83-86 9:1.

COMPARISION OF PROPANE TO GASOLINE

Performance and drivebility of propane vehicles is essentially the same as for gasoline vehicles. For propane, the gas displacement effect is 4%, it means that the displacement of air by propane causes reduction in power of 4 % (volumetric efficiency decrease) from an equilevent gasoline counterpart. Gasoline on the other hand, provides evaporotive cooling of the intake air which increases the intake air density and increases the power. Test results show 6 % less power with propane than with gasoline[11]. Propane has a research octane rating of 110 to 120, thus, it resists engine knock better than gasoline (gasoline 87-94 ) allowing a higher compression ratio for the engine, see Figure 1. Propane contains about 5 % more energy per unit mass however the density is nearly 32 % less. The net result is that a litre propane contains 28 % less energy than a litre of gasoline, Table 4. Assuming that an engine is operated on propane and gasoline with equal efficiency, more litres of propane will be consumed to provide equilevent performance. Fortunately, engines generally operate on propane with greater efficiency than on gasoline so that the increase in fuel volume is not as great as the energy comparison suggests. Propane fueled vehicles can achieve the same driving range as a gasoline vehicle by installing a slightly larger tank. Propane use consumes approximately 5 % more fuel for equivelent performance but it costs 15 % less than gasoline. Projections for the next decade, anticipate LPG prices increasing far more more slowly than gasoline[11].

Table 4. Energy Density Comparision

HD5-propane Gasoline

Liquid Density * 499 732

kg / m3

Lower Heating Value 46.3 43.9

Mj / kg

Energy Density 23.1 32.2

Density at 20 C & corresponding sat. pressure

The flammability range for propane is from 2.4 to 9.6 % in air. This compares to a flammability range for gasoline of 1 to 7.6 % in air. The ignition temperature, a identification of anti-knock-property, of propane ( 457 C ) is at the higher end of ignition temperature range for gasoline ( 227 to 471 C ).

Gasoline, being a normal liquid, exhibits very little change over the normal temperature or pressure range. Propane, however, is gas at normal temperatures and pressures. Its physicsal properties depend strongly on the temperature and pressure at which they are being stored. The vapor pressure and liquid density of propane are shown in Fig 2 and Fig 3. The first figure defines the pressure that will exist in a propane fuel tank as the ambient temperature changes. The second figure shows why propane tanks can not be filled completely. Some ullage space must be left in the tank because the liquid volume expands significantly if the tank encounters increasing ambient temperatures. Between 27 and 99 F, for example, the liquid volume expands by 13 %. Due to this, and its lower density, propane requires a 35 % greater storage volume than gasoline. Propane systems have some kind of safety fill stop device to limit tank fills to no more than 80 % to 85 % of tank volume. This allows room for liquid expansion if the temperature rises after the tank is filled. Due to the low viscosity of propane and its storage under pressure, it may leak through small cracks, pumps, seals and gaskets more readily than gasoline.

Propane fuel systems, being totally enclosed and pressure tight, have no of refueling, evaporative, running losses and emissions from the fuel storage system.

It is not sufficient to merely consider mass of exhaust emissions. One must also consider how hydrocarbon emissions and nitrogen oxides combine in the atmosphere to form smog.Smog is a ground level photo chemical ozone phenomenon that is a consequence of emissions and sunshine in a relatively stagnant air basin. The less the rate of reactive organic gas emitted, the les ozone formed in time. No ozone is formed without oxides of nitrogen being present and there is a certain ratio of reactive organic gas to NOx that maximizes the ozone formed per unit mass of each of the reactive organic gases. This ratio is often near this optimum in many urban enviroments. Reactive organic gas emission controls are important in reducing the mass and virulance of the compounds. NOx controls are important in minimizing the rate at which ozone is formed from any reactive organic gas and instrumental in minimizing the spread and duration ozone episode. Since, smog is not directly emitted, most emission standards and test procedures fail to make a rational connection with the health oriented air quality standard for ozone. Smog forming potential is estimated by calculating the atmospheric reactivities of each of the individual components in a vehicle`s exhaust emission. Such calculations show a clear-cut advantage for propane, Fig 4. Every gallon of gasoline that can be replaced by propane should cut typical exhaust ozone potential by almost one-half. The high ratio of hydogen to carbon, in popane results in lower production of both toxic carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, which is the principal greenhouse gas. As a result HC, CO and CO2 emission are lower with propane but NOx emission is higher than with gasoline, Fig 5.

COMPARISION OF PROPANE AND NATURAL GAS

Natural gas vehicle fuel is stored on the vehicle in either the form of compressed natural gas (CNG) stored in cylinders at 2400 to 3600 psi or liquefied natural gas (LNG) stored in tanks at 10 to 30 psi and -163 C

Pipeline quality natural gas is composed of several different gases, of which methane typically accounts for 85 to 95 % . Other hydrocarbons present in natural gas include ethane, propane, some butanes, and trace amounts of other hydrocarbons. Nitrogen, helium, carbon dioxide and trace amounts of hydrogen sulfide, water and odorants are also present. The removal of all CO2, water, hydrogen sulfide and odorants is required for liquefaction, thus LNG does not contain these constituents.

The specific gravity of natural gas relative to air (air = 1.00) is 0.56 to 0.62 depending on gas composition. This indicates that natural gas is lighter than air. In the event of a natural gas leak, the gas will rise and dissipate given open conditions. Propane vapors are heavier than air (specific gravity = 1.5) thus propane will stay low, against the ground and may collect in sewers and other low areas before ultimately dispersing into the air with the aid of wind or ventilation systems.

Natural gas has a research octane rating of about 130 (research octane rating of propane is between 110-120) making it more resistant to engine knock. The anti-knock property is a result of the high ignition temperature, resistance to autoignition, and the relatively low flame speed of natural gas. Methane can be used at higher compression ratios (therefore higher efficiency) than gasoline, propane falls between the two.

The volumetric air- fuel ratio for CNG is 9.6. One cubic meter of fuel is required for every 9.6 cubic meters of air charged. Because the fuel gas must displace air, CNG results in volumetric reduction of about 9.3 % with a corresponding drop in potential power (for propane 4 %).

With respect to almost all defined fuel characteristics, values for propane lie between those for methane and gasoline, Table 5.

The volumetric heating value of the fuels, the volumetric air/fuel ratios, and the volumetric heating values of the stoichometric air/fuel mixtures for different gaseous fuels are shown in Table 6 and Fig 6.

Table 5. Comperative Engine Use Charecteristics

Units Methane Propane Gasoline

Autoiignition point F 1,000-1,350 874 365

Autoignition point C 538-732 468-494 185

Flammability Limits vol percent 5-15 2.1-9.5 1.4-7.6

Stoichometric A/F kg / kg 17.3 15.3 14.7

Stoichometric A/F m3/m3 9.7 24.6

Research octane number 130 112-125 91-95

Motor octane number 105 97-111 82-88

Relative CO2/Btu 0.76 0.92 1.0

Table 6 illustrates the fact that the power obtainable from an engine is more a function of the amount of air that can be charged than of the heating value of the particular fuel being used.

Table 6 Volumetric Heating Value (LVH) of fuel gases and energy content of

stoichometric mixtures with air

Fuel gas Calorific Value Air required m3/ m3 Energy content Mj/m3

Propane 93.2 24.65 3.63

Octane 233.3 59.50 3.92

Natural Gas 31.7 8.53 3.32

Methane 35.9 9.67 3.36

If compared according to emissions data, both methane and propane engines may emit more NOx. NOX is primarily a function of peak combustion temperature. Gasoline enters the combustion chamber at least partially as liquid. The energy used to vaporize the gasoline results in a lower peak combustion temperature. Methane is also considered to contribute to greenhouse gases because methane is a highly persistent and highly absorbtion gas that collects in the upper atmosphere.Propane is oxidized more quickly and generally does not reach upper atmosphere levels. The non-toxic methane has near zero reactivity in the production of photochemical smog, but propane represents a more reactive exhaust hydrocarbon component than with methane.

COMPARISION OF PROPANE AND METHANE TO GASOLINE

The first line in the Table 7 gives the ratio of the energy of the fluids under typical fuel tank conditions, to that of gasoline. In computng this number, the liquid density of saturated propane at 60 F was used. For methane calculations a tank pressure of 3,660 psi was assumed. From line 2 in Table 7, methane requires 3.85 times as much storage volume as gasoline, propane requires 35 % greater storage volume than gasoline.

Table 7.Comparision of Energy Storage Efficiency

Units Methane Propane Gasoline

Energy density ratio to gasoline 0.26 0.74 1.0

Tank volume for 20 GGE Gal 76.9 27.0 20

Tank weight for 20 GGE Lb 530 89 25

Ullage and heel limits percent 4 15 0

Corrected tank volume for 20 GGE Gal 80 31.8 20

Effective energy density raio 0.25 0.63 1.0

Effective tank volume ratio 4.0 1.59 1.0

Weight of fuel lb 107 115 124

Corrected tank weight, 20 GGE lb 552 * 99 25

Full tank weight lb 659 214 149

* 4 tanks, each 20 gallons, Al / Fiberglass

GGE = Gallons of gasoline equilvalent

Natural gas and propane are generally considered to reduce engine maintenance and wear in spark-ignited engines. The most commonly cited benefits are extended oil change intervals, increased spark plug life, nd extended engine life. Natural gas and propane both exhibit reduced soot formation over gasoline. Reduced soot concentration in the engine oil is believed to reduce abrasiveness and chemical degradation of the oil.Gasoline fueled engines ( particularly carburated engines ) require very rich operation during cold starting and warm up. Some of the excess fuel collects on the cylinder walls, " washing " lubricating oil off wals and contributing to accelerated wear during engine warm up [11]. Gaseous fuels do not interfere with cylinder lubrication.

Gaseous fueled engines are generally considered easier to start than gasoline engines in cold weather. Because they are vaporized before injection to into engine. However, under extremely cold temperatures, there is cold-start difficulty for both propane and narural gas.This is probably due to ignition failure because very difficult ionazation conditions, sluggishness of mechanical components. Hot starting can present difficulties for gaseous fueled vehicles, especially in warm weathers. After an engine is shut down, the engine coolant continues to absorb heat from the engine, raising its temperature. If the vehicle is restarted within a critical period after shutdown, ( long enough for the coolant temperature to rise, but before the entire system cools ), the elevated coolant temperature will heat the gas more than normal, lowering its volumetric heating value and density. This would result in mixture enleanment.

PROPANE FUEL SYSTEM EQUIPMENT

A) MIXER

Early propane mixers operated as a conventional venturi-controlled devices in a manner quite similar to gasoline carburetors. Vaporizerd propane is drawn through a fixed orifice in response to engine air flow. The basic design priciples have remained unchanged over 30 years. As intake air enters the engine, a venturi effect is created through the mixer air-valve. This slight pressure drop acts on a spring-loaded diaphragm is lifted proportionally with air flow,. This may be best described as a highly accurate flow meter which controls engine fuel flow as a function of air flow.

B)VAPORIZER

Vaporizer converts the liquid propane to a gas. The primary heat source for this vaporazation is engine-jacket water which flows through specially designed water jackets cast into the vaporizer body. It is necessary that propane fuel systems draw from the bottom of the tank rather than the top. If engine feed were drawn from the gas phase, the heavier, higher boiling components in LPG would gradually become concentrated in the liquid phase creating a liquid mass with a for vapour pressure and a high freezing point .This liquid would create various problems in the feel feed system .Therefore, L.P.G systems draw from the bottom of the tank and send the liquid through a vaporizer that is heated by engine coolant.

C) REGULATOR

The function of the regulator is to provide precise fuel pressure regulation to the mixer in two stages.As demand on the regulator increases with engine load, regulator allows higher flow; demand on system decreases, regulator restricts flow to maintain flow pressure.

D) FUEL TANK

Propane fuel tank is installed, along with a refueling port, fuel lines, and pressure safety valves. A filter" fuelock" removes particles that may be present in the propane.Propane tanks are constructed of heavy gauge steel, in compliance wih the Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code of the American Soceity of Mechanical Engineers ( ASME ) to whitstand a pressure of 1000 psi. Normal working pressures of the tanks vary depending upon ambient temperaturesand the quantity of fuel in the tank, propane systems normally limit the liquid level to 80% of tank total tank volume by astopp fill valve. Common operating pressures are in the range of 130-170 psi. Tanks are equipped with pressure relief valves that will relase propane vapors to the atmosphere to prevent tank explosion under abnormaly high pressure conditions.

SAFETY

In evaluating safety aspects of a fuel with particular reference to its suitibility as automotive fuels, the following overall charectiristics need to be considered.

1) STORAGE AND PORTABILITY CHARACTERISTICS:

Propane as liquid as stored in the tanks on board automobiles. If engulfed in a a fire its heating will result in a rapid increase in pressure, even if the outside twmperature is not too excessive in accordance with its vapor pressure charestiristics. This may require venting the excessive build-up of pressure through appropriate relief valves. On the other hand CNG being a gas requires no relief valves normally and its heating will go merely towards increasing the pressure in accordance with gas laws.

Moreover, LPG operation has potential safety problems at very low temperature starting in comparision to CNG. This is mainly because there is likelihood for excessive build-up of unburnt liquid fuel that will not disperse readily; hence it can lead to uncontrollable fire on ignition.

2) THE TENDENCY TO FORM A COMBUSTIBLE MIXTURE FOLLOWING ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE:

The release one unit volume of propane in air would generate a maximumm mixture that is around 2.5 times more than the volume of the mixture formed following the release of a similar amount methane vapor.

The extent of hazards associated with such an leakage will depend largely on the relative tendency of the fuel to form a combustible mixture and the length of time for this mixture to persist in the vicinity of discharge and away from it either to be ignited from numerous potential ignition sources or feed a fire that may be engulfing the tank.

The tendency for the fuel to disperse in the surroundings from a leak is governed by the role of buoyancy and diffusional effects.

Due to the propane vapor is heavier than air, it causes to disperse for too slowly, if compared to CNG. The diffusion velocity of any fuel vapor or gas along a specificed concentration gradient in the atmosphere is proportional to the characteristics diffusion coefficient of the gas. Methane is superior to propane, see Table 8.

Propane, when involved in a leak situation will discharge in a liquid form requiring a period of time to vaporize and disperse. In the case of CNG leak, because of the gaseous nature of the fuel , the gas will issue as a very high velocity jet into surroundings aiding greatly in the rapid dispersion of the fuel.

Table 8. Some Properties of Propane, Methane, Gasoline

Property Propane Methane Gasoline


Specific Gravity at NTV 1.52 0.55 4.0

Relative to Air

Normal Boiling Point (K) 231 111.46 ~ 310-478

Critical Pressure (atm) 41.9 45.4 24.5-27

Density of Liquid at NTP (kg / L) 0.5077 0.4225 ~ 0.70

Density of Gas at NTP (kg / m3 ) 1.96 0.6512 ~ 4.40

Density Ratio, NTP Liquid / NTP Gas 259 649 ~ 150

Diffusion Coefficients in NTP 0.10 0.16 ~ 0.05

air ( cm 2 / s )

Diffusion Velocity in NTP Air ( cm / s ) ~ 0.34 ~ 0.51 ~ 0.17

3) IGNITION EXPLOSION AND FLAME SPREAD CHARACTERISTICS:

It takes a minimum of from over 2 % by volume of propane in air at ambient conditions to just support a continuous flame propagation, as compared to around 5 % for methane and 1 % for gasoline. The ignition energy for propane , as well as methane and gasoline, being considered are sufficiently low that ignition is usually assured in the presence of thermal ignition sources such as sparks, lighted matches, hot surfaces and open flames.The quenching of methane-air flames by cold surfaces, as indicated by quenching distance ,see Table 9, is easier than in the case of flames involving propane-air mixtures. Due to this, flame traps are more succesfull in suppressing methane fires than those involving propane.

Table 9. Some Combustion Properties of Propane, Methane, Gasoline

Property Propane Methane Gasoline

Quenching Gap in TNP Air, mm 1.78 2.03 2.0

Limits of Flammability in Vol, % 2.1-10.4 5.3-15 1-7.6

Limits of Detonation in Air Vol, % 3.4-35 6.3-13.5 1.1-3.3

Minimum Energy for Ignition in Air 0.305 0.29 0.24

(mj)

Autoignition Temperature, (K) 740 813 501-744

Flame Temperature in Air, (K) 2243 2148 2470

Maximum Burning Velocity in NTP 43-52 37-45 37-43

Air, cm / s

Energy of Stoichometric Mixture, 3.79 3.58 3.91

Mj / m3

The maximum therotical energy available from a chemical explosion involving methane-air is below half of that propane-air mixtures.

4) SOME ENVIROMENTAL CONSIDERATIONS:

Propane fires tend to persist within the leakage area due to its liquid and heavier than air air states. Methane has relatively low combustion temperatures and its fire hazards do not persist for long due to buoyant and dispersive nature of the fuel.

For fuel line ruptures, pressurized gaseous fuels represent higher hazard levels than gasoline.

In collisions, CNG is the safest fuel, LPG the next, and gasoline the worst.

SUMMARY

In this rewiew, propane, as an alternative fuel is compared to methane and gasoline.

REFERENCES

1) J.E Sinor Cosultants, Inc Niwot, CO, Technical Evaluation and Assesment of CNG / LPG Bi-Fuel and Flex-Fuel Vehicle Vialability.

2) G.A.Karim, Some Considerations of the Safety of Methane, (CNG), as an Automotive Fuel-Comparision with Gasoline, Propane and Hydrogen operation, S.A.E Paper.No 830267

3) G.A.Karim and I. Wierzba, Comperative Studies of Methane and Propane as Fuels for Spark Ignition and Compression Ignition Engines, S.A.E Paper No. 831195

4) James.S. Wallace, Assesment of" First Generation Propane Conservation Equipment, S.A.E Paper 892144

5) Fred Hendren, Propane power for Light Duty Vehicles: An Overview, S.A.E Paper No. 830383

6) Bernie W. Rice, Evaluation of Automotive Stop Fill Valves for Propane Vehicles, S.A.E Paper No. 861576

7) Algas Carburetion, Handbook

8) NPGA # 1331, Commercial / Industrial Propane Guide

9) Science Applications International Corparation, Introduction to Alternative Fuel Vehicles

10) Wilson. B, Evaluation of Aftermarkets Fuel Delivery Systems for Natural Gas and LPG Vehicles

11) J.E Sinor Consultants Inc, The Clean Fuels Report, November 1992, Volume 4, No. 5

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 09-22-2009).]

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CDubbz88GT
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Report this Post09-22-2009 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CDubbz88GTSend a Private Message to CDubbz88GTDirect Link to This Post
Ive been working on a hydrogen set up and the only real hurtle ive come accross so far is the holding tank for the hydrogen. and the high pressure pipeing lines.....
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Report this Post09-22-2009 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
If you figure out how to make it run on CNG, let us know. I would love to just hook up my natural gas from my house to fuel my car. I've read it equates to about $1 a gallon. Plus propane is a petroleum derivative where CNG is not. That's less money to Hugo Chavez et al.
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Report this Post09-22-2009 06:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
CNG kit's at this site http://www.cngoutfitters.com/
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Report this Post09-23-2009 03:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post
i think a fiero will run on cng but , you cant refill on your home because the compressed natural gas is stored at around 200bars means you would need a pump.

next problem is the weight of the storage bottles , they are much heavier than the lpg bottles .
You would add around 400 pounds to the car ( depends on the setup )

next is around 20% powerloss and very few refillstations at least around here .
Range is also not very good.
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Report this Post09-23-2009 07:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
I am not trying to be a jerk but do some of you even read the info posted CNG gives about a 4% power loss acording to the copied info above in the post and the info comes from

West Virginia University's
Alternative Fuel Vehicle Training Program

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 09-23-2009).]

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Report this Post09-23-2009 09:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
I've been to that site about CNG you posted above. They say 10% power loss but that doesn't bother me. The problem is the cost. $3200 for the kit and $2200 for the tank (+ $2000 for install if you can't). The good thing is the ability to switch back and forth from CNG to gasoline.

Just read where the maker of PHILL, the device that allows you to fuel your CNG vehicle at home, has gone bankrupt. Assets were acquired by another company but no word if the devices are still being sold. This occurred in April.
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Report this Post09-23-2009 10:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
well at 10% on a 500 hp gas engine your talking 50 hp if you just bolt it on but if you had a turbo you could realy take advantage of the 130 octane then that 10% is gone due to match the octane with gas you need racing gas at $6 somthing a gallon. the $3200 is a bit steep i will contact the guys who make the cheaper kit see if it can be made to run CNG.
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Report this Post09-23-2009 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post
nah , forget cng , opel is selling cng vehicles here in germany , range with 2 big bottles ( to big and heavy for a fiero ) is around 300km .
LPG is the better choice and you can switch from gas to propane too.

and 10% powerloss is not correct , believe me i drove a cng opel zafira and a normal with same engine ane even the seller of the cars told me that 30% is more realistic.
.........

the biggest issue is that the car have to be bifuel because of the very thin refill station net.
a pure monovalent cng engine optimized for the fuel could be at 15 % loss .

Next problem is that cng is available in 2 quality grades here at the pump .

[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 09-23-2009).]

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Report this Post09-23-2009 02:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HudiniSend a Private Message to HudiniDirect Link to This Post
I'm just looking for 2 things. Not running a petroleum product (gasoline and LPG are both made from crude oil) and having a bi-fuel vehicle. The dedicated CNG cars are not worth it as natural gas prices can vary wildly with the latest crisis, same as gasoline. My perfect car would run on CNG and E85 (E100 if I had a choice), have a turbo with a variable boost controller, plus a Moates 2timer or similar so I can select between 2 BIN files to optimize the fuel/timing for whatever I'm running. Not too much to ask for is it?
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Report this Post09-23-2009 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
wow 30% you sure it's not 90% I am a bit sick of the he said type of cr@p facts find me a paper that some one reputable wrote. btw i just talked to a guy who was filling the buses with propane where i work for the first time and he runs it in his truck and said he cant feel any differance in power at all . pleas post facts from studies
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Report this Post09-24-2009 01:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for spark1Send a Private Message to spark1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieromaniac:


hi , my Fiero is running since 40000km on propane.
on 2nd site of this thread is my conversion :

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/069714-2.html

atm iam swapping out the duke for an 3.2v6 ( stroked and bored 2.8 ) .
It will become a sequential LPG system with 6 propane injectors.

And its not true that i have to drive from time to time with gasoline , i can start the engine with propane too if i want to .
But to keep the gasoline system clean i start on gasoline atm and drive first mile on it .

tank :




tank volume is 45l useable are 42l whats almost same size like standard tank.
fuelconsumption is now after some setup sessions 8.5L / 100km = 27,67 mpg whats not bad for an automatik L4
if u keep in mind that propane has 15% less energy per liter than gasoline.



I think the reason Ford recommends using a tank of gasoline every month in the dual-fuel F-150 is the one you mention, to keep the switching system clean and the gasoline fresh.

The 15% decrease in range is about right. For safety, a propane tank should only be filled to 80%. So to get a nominal 10 gallons would take a 12.5 gallon tank. The one I drove vented when the temperature reached 120° F even though it was filled to 80% at a cooler temperature.

MPG using Propane will be lower than when using gasoline. Operation at higher elevations will also affected more.

There may be a savings in using Propane or CNG but with the cost of conversion, the payback will be very long in the U.S. Maybe quicker in Europe if there is a higher cost differential or a government incentive.

edit: See Propane Jane for an example of government incentives.

[This message has been edited by spark1 (edited 09-24-2009).]

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Report this Post09-24-2009 03:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

I'm just looking for 2 things. Not running a petroleum product (gasoline and LPG are both made from crude oil) and having a bi-fuel vehicle. The dedicated CNG cars are not worth it as natural gas prices can vary wildly with the latest crisis, same as gasoline. My perfect car would run on CNG and E85 (E100 if I had a choice), have a turbo with a variable boost controller, plus a Moates 2timer or similar so I can select between 2 BIN files to optimize the fuel/timing for whatever I'm running. Not too much to ask for is it?


Yep , big advantage of an CNG Conversion ,if you dont want a fuel made of oil , is that there is already BIO CNG available.
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Report this Post09-24-2009 03:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post

Fieromaniac

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quote
Originally posted by spark1:


I think the reason Ford recommends using a tank of gasoline every month in the dual-fuel F-150 is the one you mention, to keep the switching system clean and the gasoline fresh.

The 15% decrease in range is about right. For safety, a propane tank should only be filled to 80%. So to get a nominal 10 gallons would take a 12.5 gallon tank. The one I drove vented when the temperature reached 120° F even though it was filled to 80% at a cooler temperature.

MPG using Propane will be lower than when using gasoline. Operation at higher elevations will also affected more.

There may be a savings in using Propane or CNG but with the cost of conversion, the payback will be very long in the U.S. Maybe quicker in Europe if there is a higher cost differential or a government incentive.

edit: See Propane Jane for an example of government incentives.



We have less than the half price of regular gasoline for LPG.

means i just refilled for 57cent / litre instead of 1.35 Euro for Super Gasoline ( 95octane )
The regular gasoline with 91 octane isnt available on many gasstations here so were forced to fill up the highoctane stuff in our fieros.

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Report this Post09-24-2009 06:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post

tank volume is 45l useable are 42l whats almost same size like standard tank.
fuelconsumption is now after some setup sessions 8.5L / 100km = 27,67 mpg whats not bad for an automatik L4
if u keep in mind that propane has 15% less energy per liter than gasoline.

[/QUOTE]

Ok so you are geting 27.67 MPG with an old Tech 4 and automatic it would seem that you are not lossing that much power what was the fuel MPG with gasoline
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Report this Post09-24-2009 03:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post
my current drivingprofile is 40% autobahn at max 120kmh ( limited speed there ) 45% smaller streets (70-80kmh) and only 15% city .
i drive 100- 120 miles per day.
with gasoline and same drivingprofile i had 7.4L / 100km ( 87 Duke , 1:2.81 finaldrive th125c , 225/55 R16 tires )
I have an Oldstyle Venturi system fitted and iam running a relatively lean setting for the system.
Most shops offering the lpg conversions are afraid of engine failures because of that they setup the system richer as needed.

I have a LPG Conversion pls dont mix that up with CNG , this are completely different systems .
You cant fill cng in an lpg system .

I dont see any chance for an CNG conversion in a fiero because of the big and heavy stroage bottles . this babys are made to hold 600bars , cng is stored at 200 in them .

btw. if your visit germany your welcome to drive my cars and feel the difference between the fuels.
And the lower the HP Number of the engine , the more you feel the powerloss.

With an sequential LPG system you dont have a powerloss you have lil more torque !!!!

CNG systems do have a powerloss plus the big extra weight.

Just want do clear up this thing a lil because i do know many ppl thinking that propane and cng would be the same.
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Report this Post09-24-2009 04:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for spark1Send a Private Message to spark1Direct Link to This Post
7.4L / 100km = 32.04 MPG, 15% more than with Propane.
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Report this Post09-24-2009 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
I never got better than 27 MPG with the 88 5spd coup 4 cyl but still your gitting good millage and if you wanted the 15% loss in power could be cut way down with like 14 to compression pistons due to the extra octane . have you advanced the ignition timing ?
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Report this Post09-25-2009 12:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FieromaniacClick Here to visit Fieromaniac's HomePageSend a Private Message to FieromaniacDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

I never got better than 27 MPG with the 88 5spd coup 4 cyl but still your gitting good millage and if you wanted the 15% loss in power could be cut way down with like 14 to compression pistons due to the extra octane . have you advanced the ignition timing ?


Its a D.I.S Engine so i didnt changed the timing ( i badly wanted it but ... )
What ive done to the engine so far is :

- head is cut down for more compression
- ported the head + polishing
- ported the intake manifold + polishing
- perf. exhaust manifold
- perf. cat
- v6 / formula style exhaust with 4 tubes
- heated Oxigen Sensor
- Air/ Fuel gauge in Cockpit

plus changing transmission and engineoil every 15000km
and all sensors in perfect condition
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Report this Post09-25-2009 01:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KurtAKXSend a Private Message to KurtAKXDirect Link to This Post
Engine man,

The reason you are reading about a very small (4%-ish) power loss in SAE papers, but that Fieromaniac is reporting being 15 or more percent down on power is that the papers often work on the basis of simply comparing energy density and stoichiometric ratios.

What the papers do not account for is that in the case of "throttle body" type LP injection, the gas vapor displaces a significant amount of air in the intake manifold. If he had a sequential high-pressure LPG injection system that injected the fuel in liquid phase, then there wouldn't be lots of fuel vapor taking the place of air in the manifold.
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Report this Post09-25-2009 05:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post
Ok i think i understand what you are saying is that his is mounted at the begining of the intake so it displace more air so biger power loss then one injected right at the ports
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Report this Post09-25-2009 09:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post

engine man

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Ok i thought about what you said and what we need is a cylinder head like on a 410 sprint car engine where the injector is not even in the intake but it is on the Exaust side of the head and injecting right above the intake valve. the other way would be to have an injector that reaches way down into the port like i used on my 360 sprint car we used 5 inch long nozzels that was due to the rules from ASCS. I know the btu thing realy isnt a big factor you just need more fuel just like Methonal we ran in my sprint cars. i think to make 1 HP you need to burn about 1 pound of Methonal and gas is 1/2 pound, so it realy comes down to the air being displaced and yes you will still burn more fuel and your millage will still be 15% due to you need to burn 15% more fuel to get the same power but with injecting it so close to the valve it wont Displace the air so bad if any.
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Report this Post09-25-2009 10:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for engine manSend a Private Message to engine manDirect Link to This Post

engine man

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Now I think that if you add a turbo you should be able to make more power and get better fuel economy due to you can run Higher boost on the same amout of fuel due to the higher octan than supper unleaded gas and it should make more power. My thinking is that you end up with a higher cylinder presure to start and more air to make a hotter burn its like adding oxegen to your torch you would need to figure how much more boost for the extra octane
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