Have an 88 Formula, last time I had the alignment done at a well known tire mfg shop after 2 times they said it was right I had to get in touch with the corporate office who had me see the mgr he said his shop does it right & best it can be I had him take for a drive it was pulling to the right he agreed needed to be redone. Took 1 1/2 hrs, now perfect. Had new bushings, ball joints & rear struts put on. My mechanic took it somewhere else local shop. 1st time wobbled at over 70mph (from the rear struts) & drifted right. He said could not adjust anymore don't go over 70mph, we left it there to be redone after finished still drifts right & wobbles, he said my mechanic tightened parts on while wheels hanging instead of sitting, he reloosened then tightened. Bottom line why can't they jkust do like they used to just have the car track straight & steady, he says left/f in specs but right not. Am I missing something, he wanted another $50 for the work he did, my mech paid him but IU told my mech the job is not right get your money back.
I blame a lot of this on the "dumbing down" of automotive tech.s just doing front drive "cookie cutter" alignments all the time. Last time I had an alignment done on my 86 3800 SC II car I searched down a guy who had owned Fieros and raced them. He took over 4 hours to align the car which even included at least a couple of test drives. Car was stable, hands off steering, well past 120.
I'm experiencing the exact same thing. I've taken my 88 to a well known tire & alignment shop twice and they can't seem to even get the steering wheel aligned let alone the wheels - thank god for the life time alignment. And at 70+ mph I am not very confident in the ol girl - lot's of pull and lots of sway. Like your car, when I brake, I too pull to the right. Everything has been tightened down, brakes are all new, and I even have new joints & rods. I'm now going so far as to replace the motor & tranny mounts (that will have minimal effect). It's been frustrating as he!!. So, I feel your pain.
If I discover anything of value I will CERTAINLY let you know!!!!
Anybody else have any ideas?
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08:57 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15801 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
A good alignment job requires skill of a good mechanic to get it right. Unfortunately there are alot of shoemakers in the auto repair business these days The policy of the name brand tire and auto places to hire the cheapest labor doesn't help either. At the Pep Boys near me, most of the "mechanics" don't even speak English. They may be good decent people just trying to make a living but when you hire and pay low wages, you don't get skilled mechanics. Its the same all over particularly so at the lube shops, Wal Mart, the tire shops, and Sears. Before I get an alignment I go around to the shop and speak with the technican to get his ideas about aligning my Fiero.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
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09:30 AM
whodeanie Member
Posts: 3819 From: woodstock,Ga.,USA Registered: Jan 2008
I blame a lot of this on the "dumbing down" of automotive tech.s just doing front drive "cookie cutter" alignments all the time. Last time I had an alignment done on my 86 3800 SC II car I searched down a guy who had owned Fieros and raced them. He took over 4 hours to align the car which even included at least a couple of test drives. Car was stable, hands off steering, well past 120.
I agree! I am lucky because I have a friend the has an alignment rack at his shop and he does a great job. but I have in the past had big corporate shops do them for me with nothing but headaches afterwards. the best advice I can give you would be to find a small local shop to take the car to and give them the specs you want your car set to. Make sure they give you a print out! so you have it to go by. big shops hire people with little or no experiance and give them one day of half ass training on the machine and let them at it. get them in and out fast is all they care about. my friend charges 45.00 no matter how long it takes, one car I took to him had been in a crash some time in it's life and he took 3 hrs to get it right. D.
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09:39 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
yup, a good alignment is hard to find I found my local Belle Tire to be highly consistant in doing a great job and, being I end up dropping my cradle almost yearly now for almost 10 years, I've had to get ALOT of alignments. PepBoys & Morisette Automotive - never again. PepBoys couldnt even properly install a starter on my Suburban. normally a job I'd do myself - but it was winter, and the beast didnt fit in my garage
a thing I found that helps: remind them it has rear toe
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09:48 AM
css9450 Member
Posts: 5546 From: Glen Ellyn, Illinois, USA Registered: Nov 2002
I recently got an alignment for my 88GT and even though I copied the alignment pages from the factory service manual and provided them to the shop, I think they forgot to torque the upper control arm paddle bolts after setting the alignment; its since gone "pigeon toed" due to the shaft moving on the crossmember.
I build a set up to align my cars since they could not fit on an alignment rack. I can set the tow anywhere the owner wants it and I can adjust whatever caster and camber the car will let me. I use lasers to get accurate readings and calculate correct settings. I have had my work checked on a then new hunter system (2005) and they told me that my alignment was very accurate.
I agree, I don't trust any shop to align my car. Just the steering wheel not being straight makes me upset....
Most new generation 'techs', and I use that loosly, dont know how to fix anything. They mostly just guess at whats wrong and replace parts till they correct it. In the case of something like an alignment where you dont need parts, their answer is always going to be " thats the best / closest we can get it." I wouldnt accept that from a surgeon, and shouldnt from a repair facility either.
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01:58 PM
joesfiero Member
Posts: 2181 From: North Port,FL,USA Registered: Jan 2008
I was a GM tech for 5 or 6 years, a few years ago. I learned how to align cars by an "old school" guy who taught me ALL the tricks and I am very grateful for that mentor. I can tell you now, aligning a car, especially a Fiero takes time, patience, skill, and a little bit of hard work. Moreso than the mechanics in a "well known shop" are willing to do. It is much easier to make the car look like it is aligned correctly and send it out the door. I bounced around to a few dealerships as a tech and I noticed that I never met another tech who was willing and able to do the kind of alignment I was. One phrase these "mechanics" use is "set the toe and let her go" meaning to position the wheels so that they are in spec, set the toe so it goes straight, and get it off the rack.
What I mean by positioning the wheels so they are in spec is this-you can literally do whatever it takes, jacking the car up just a hair, having a friend hold the wheel in place, move the sensor up or down, even repositioning the sensor on the rim just to make the car look like it is in specs. You usually get a printout with the "before" numbers, and the "after" numbers compared to the car's specs.
On top of that, some machines wont even have the Fiero in their system, which means they just set it to where they think it should be. Other than that, its just like taking the Fiero into a shop for other work. Mechanics see it as a foreign object, are afraid of it, and dont want to work on it. For them its easiest to collect your money, tell you its good and send it off.
Main point is, to get a good alignment, know what needs to be done. Im not saying learning all the specs, but know what needs to adjusted and how to adjust it. Then ask the shop if they mind you watching. If they allow you, thats when its best to know what they are doing. If they say something is adjusted all the way, and there aint no more then something is wrong with the car, something is bent, or bushings/ball joints worn, etc. and they should be able to tell you what it is. Short of doing it yourself, this is the only way you MIGHT get it done right.
-Joe
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04:04 PM
PFF
System Bot
tvelarde Member
Posts: 173 From: Washington State Registered: Feb 2004
I have been very lucky with alignments. My local Les Schwab store has not had an opening in 15 years for staff. They are all long term employees and most belong to the local car clubs. When I take a Fiero in for alignment (8 to date at my local shop) they never even blink, just ask if I want the factory specs or if I have other specs that I want it set to.
Believe me, I have taken some Fieros there on a trailer when I could not get all four tires to all point in the same direction.
Most of you should be able to do as good a job as most shops using a tape measure YES a tape mesure just measure the relationship between the front of the tires to the rear,, the front will be even with the rear,or a tad closer.. use the center of the tire or the inner rim (as suggested by Blacktree) of the wheel..If your tire has a center slot running around the tire use this,,it is not accurate but easy to do and gets you close..I tape the tape end to the slot and pull tape to other tire ..I have posted how to do this ,,I will post another alignment HOW TO this week end The fiero is a difficult car to align properly look for an alignment shop with a mechanic over 45 years old Americans have demanded,,.insisted,, fought for poor quality work by the lowest price quality work cost money ,,top mechanics go where the wages are best,,many top shops will only give an estimate if you pay for it,,people immediately go to a cheaper place...and get cheaper work(great for illegals) the lowest price has destroyed the alignment business..toe and go is best method now for mechanic,,a Fiero proper alignment can cost $120.oo to $200.oo
I have a mechanic that I follow to what ever shop he goes to for all my cars. 3 Fiero's, 1 SHO, F-150, minivan and ford Fusion. One of the Fieros has a Slalom front suspension. The SHO rear has 4 adjustable lateral links. He will align to stock or what ever setting you want. It is a matter of experience and trusting the customer knows what he wants from his car. He is late 50's and is a car nut with lots of race car experience. Customers follow him and do not care about the shop he works for. John
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11:15 PM
stinky817 Member
Posts: 230 From: Delta, PA, USA Registered: Nov 2008
UGH! i wish i could tell everyone to bring their fieros to my shop!!! I LOVE DOING ALIGNMENTS!! hahaha. i was taught how to do alignments by an old school guy, and i've since tweaked his methods, but i'm VERY THROUGH with it. and it pisses me off how much people are like "ah, that's close enough" *shudders* the manufacturers come up with these specifications for a reason.... *rolls eyes*
I just finished a project car for someone. it was an 85 that had a lambo body on it.... and i did a rough alignment in the garage that i was working on it in, then the guy that owned it took it somewhere local, and me, working on the floor, i couldn't get one of the inner tie rods to move enough, and i said, ah, they should be able to move it more cuz they won't be lying on the floor. well, i took the car for a drive the next day, and the steering wheel was almost 90* off center!!! WTF DID THEY DO!?!?!?!
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11:22 PM
Sep 17th, 2009
rogergarrison Member
Posts: 49601 From: A Western Caribbean Island/ Columbus, Ohio Registered: Apr 99
I use a tape measure for tow. I use a bubble level to set camber. Then I adjust caster by trial and error...setting, driving, setting , driving till it goes straight down the road. Then center steering wheel by tie rod ends. The things that annoy the hell out of me is a car with the steering wheel off center, or one that pulls one way or the other.
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11:48 AM
Dennis LaGrua Member
Posts: 15801 From: Hillsborough, NJ U.S.A. Registered: May 2000
Most of you should be able to do as good a job as most shops using a tape measure YES a tape mesure just measure the relationship between the front of the tires to the rear,, the front will be even with the rear,or a tad closer.. use the center of the tire or the inner rim (as suggested by Blacktree) of the wheel..If your tire has a center slot running around the tire use this,,it is not accurate but easy to do and gets you close..I tape the tape end to the slot and pull tape to other tire ..I have posted how to do this ,,I will post another alignment HOW TO this week end The fiero is a difficult car to align properly look for an alignment shop with a mechanic over 45 years old Americans have demanded,,.insisted,, fought for poor quality work by the lowest price quality work cost money ,,top mechanics go where the wages are best,,many top shops will only give an estimate if you pay for it,,people immediately go to a cheaper place...and get cheaper work(great for illegals) the lowest price has destroyed the alignment business..toe and go is best method now for mechanic,,a Fiero proper alignment can cost $120.oo to $200.oo
The difficult part is in the rear and finding the centerline reference point that both wheels can be aligned to. You cannot use either wheel as a reference for the tow as it could be way out. When I replace rear end parts I usually start by using a long aluminum level on the tire and get a rough judge of its position relative to the sides of the car. Then I set the camber with a smaller level (using it vertically) then drive it to the alignment shop.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
I have a related question for you guys. I nailed a pothole a while back and the steering wheel became instantly off by about 5 degrees, but there has been no change in handling, it doesn't pull or drift and there is no undue tire wear. What likely happened?
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01:28 AM
solotwo Member
Posts: 5375 From: Grand Rapids, MI. USA Registered: Jun 2002
I found a place here in Grand Rapids that is of the old school. The shop doesnt even have a waiting area. It has an old Bear alignment sign out by the street. He did mine after I had it a place on Division just south of 54th. He said the specs were way off. What a difference. I took there again after I referred Gene to them and he said dont tell any body else, these are not fun to work on. So I stopped going there. Today I am taking it to Action Tire it get new ball joints installed and aligned. I hope their tech has a good day today, when I took it there last week the car had grease on the door and the floor mat and carpet.
Steve W GR, MI 88 Coupe
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08:20 AM
Lambo nut Member
Posts: 4442 From: Centralia,Missouri. USA Registered: Sep 2003
I use a tape measure for tow. I use a bubble level to set camber. Then I adjust caster by trial and error...setting, driving, setting , driving till it goes straight down the road. Then center steering wheel by tie rod ends. The things that annoy the hell out of me is a car with the steering wheel off center, or one that pulls one way or the other.
Looks like Roger and I are on the same page here. This is what I do!
If you want something done right, do it yourself....
After many attempts to find someone who can align my 88 GT, I found a Les Schwab in Fremont, CA that could do it. It took over an hour. I just watched the guy go from side to side on the front. In the end, they did a great job. There are places that will do an alignment correct. Find them and support their business.
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06:46 PM
PFF
System Bot
Sep 19th, 2009
R Runner Member
Posts: 3701 From: Scottsville, KY Registered: Feb 2003
I have a related question for you guys. I nailed a pothole a while back and the steering wheel became instantly off by about 5 degrees, but there has been no change in handling, it doesn't pull or drift and there is no undue tire wear. What likely happened?
I would check it out or get it checked. There may not seem to be any tire wear now, but there most likely will be at some point. I would be willing to be that your alignment is out of wack now.
WHEN YOU HIT A BIG POT HOLE ,,RUN OVER A CURB ,,SLAM INTO AN OBJECT FIRST CHECK THE WHEEL..check for up and down run out and in and out..also most people do not torque down the wheels tight enough on a Fiero..So check for concentric roll roundness ,, then check wheels for verticle,, use a level or a cut 2x4 that fits against the rim lips (I love deep red rim lips) attach an angle finder to the 2x4and compare the damage side to the goodside ,, you are going to bring the damage side into alignment with the good side by ajustment or part replacement .. Always try the easy inexpensive stuff first Observe, eyeball, diagnose,, pinpoint problem and breakout the biggest hammer you can find sorry my method !1 use the above post method ,,just place a block or jack stand next to wheel and lay a ruler,stick, ect. to check in & out and of course just lower wheel to just above ground to check up and down often just reset the the wheel on the hub,and respin ,, then tighten lugnuts to bolts..use chalk marks if you can not keep track of high spots if you can not find damage parts on rear ,,do not forget the the tierod end bracket on the rear of fiero,s
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 09-19-2009).]
QUICKY toe in from the cheap Garage..I ll cover centering some other time,,centering is gearhead stuff 1 You need measuring tape like a carpenter would use..small one best 2 you need a pen and cardboad to write measurements 3 you need duct tape or other tape to hold tapemesure end to tire 4 you need a smallbox to hold tape at approximate level you select to measure from about 4 to 6 inch off ground
If tires have groove around circumference use this for measure,makes it easy,,This is not precise but works good enough if the tire does not have groove select a center slit to place tape end measure front and back of tire to arrive at proper place Blacktree suggested using the inner rims as measure stops,,you can slip tape end between tire and rim..tape to hold if you have 2 people the inner rim can be used.or you can streach Understand that toe in means the front of the tires will be IN compared to the rear of the same tire. Stand bare foot your feet both straight ahead,,now move your toes inboard a slight amount VOILA toe in Toe in means the tire leading edges are closer together than the rear edges now attach the tape to the rear/back of the passenger rear tire,,secure the end in groove and tape secure (doesnt take much) now streach the tape accross to the rear/backof driver side measure twice..WRITE IT DOWN say for instance 160mm or 61inch .. now measure the front groove to groove or what ever you set up you want the front measure to be a little short of the rear like 158mm or 60 15/16 Any time the engine, tranny,axles are removed from a Fiero the toe will be off unless a professional Fiero mechanic performs the work .. I GAR RAN TEE THIS,, WHEN YOU DO THE FRONT END,,CENTER THEWHEEL AND EYEBALL THE TIRES,, BE PRECISE AS POSSIBLE HERE ..YOUR EYEBALL IS A PRECISION INSTRUMENT ,,it was not design to watch attractive females walk away from you..what you observe will determine what action you take (with the wheel I mean) If your car swerves at speed,,if your tires squeel in a turn,,if your steering is difficult ,,changes are you have toeyetis
learn toe in and out first then move to checking camber and caster when you check aligment always move car forward and backwards 3 feet back 3 feet up to set wheels ..I check,, then another day I recheck ,, the rear toe can often be set by turning rod where it goes into the tie rod bracket welded to frame.. of course you have to loosen tie rod nut to ajust.. Once you do this it will be easy to understand ,if your car seems close dont screw with it.. another version==raise car ,,set measure circumferential mark for front and rear of tire,,scribe a mark half way around the tire,, let car down push forward and rearward 3 feet..now measure the distance between the lines in front and rear of tire.. the distance should be 0 to 1/4 smaller in the front longer in the rear.. check your manual for specs..,,I lay cardboard under the car between wheels and have clean work area.. I have use masking tape to hold tape measure end to tire If you replace a tie rod end do not snug it down untill you have good idea the toe will be correct,,check toe before you remove tie rod end .. any time you remove the tie rod to work on other components check toe first.. If you become a toe master (no, nothing to do with sex)you soon will be castering and cambering thru life !! Of course in my Fieratmobile I proceed down the road swerving,weaving,,careening,like a drunken,gerbil is at the wheel..
[This message has been edited by uhlanstan (edited 09-19-2009).]
After I had the steering rack and upper ball joints replaced I took it into Pepboys for an alignment. They had to put it up on the rack 3 times, but they / the computer eventually got it right. Granted, I was there for about two hours. They were really good about it.
A sharp contrast to a different Pepboys I had been to with my Town Car for an alignment and had all sorts of issues (which come to an abrupt resolution when I called the store manager, thankfully).
Like so many said, alot of it depends on the mechanics working there.