Need some more help, again... Thanks god for PFF! I would be in deep doo doo with out you guys...

Quick recap; 88gt originally auto swaped in the getrag 5sp. Pedles are in place and shifter/cables are installed. Hydrolic lines I can figure out.

5spd is bolted in and the engine wire harness is in place. I used the auto wire harness as the manual harness is not available. I installed the Manual ECM, but still have the auto ECM..

-What electrical changes do I need to do? Like run new wires/connectors or reuse some of the autos wires...
-I need to connect the reverse light - where and how? I assume the reverse sensor on the 5spd is the wires exiting the trans by the shift linkage?
-Nutural safety switch - where and how? is this the same as the clutch-press switch?
-The speedo sensor I can figure out as thats just extending its length to reach the new location..

Anything else I should be aware of?

Thanks,
AL

Most of the wiring changes are done at the PN (Gear Select) switch. The large yellow and purple wires will have to be mated for the starter to work. The manual version would have these go through the Clutch Start Switch at the clutch pedal.
The reverse lights are the Dark blue (+12 volt ign) and the Light Green is the feed to the reverse light. These are the two that you need to connect to the switch on the transmission near the shift linkage.
The Auto ECM would have the Orange with Black stripe wire grounded out through the Black with White stripe wire when in park or neutral. I don't think the Manual ECM even uses this wire set, so you probably don't need to do anything with them.

-Dave

^ yup

the "cheat" is to jump the yellow & purple wires on the old auto trans connector. this is the P/N switch on the auto. for the manual, for the neutral safety switch, you need to run some decent guage wire from the clutch switch to either the old auto tranny connector, or, splice in at the C500 connector.

there is also another little thing: the trunk popper.
may not have ever noticed - but it too is wired with the P/N switch. once you link the clutch safety switch, you now can only use the trunk popper when you have the clutch in. no fun. there is a relay under the dash, where you need to jump 2 leads, so the trunk popper is always active.

Thank you Dave! Once again, PFF members have come to the rescue... I am very pleased w/ my progress the last couple of weeks. Duno where I would be w/o the help you guys have given me... Soon my baby will ride again!

When you say "most of the wiring changes will be done at the PN (gear select) switch"; you are refering to the connector that would be used for the auto trans, right? Are these wires also located under my dash, so I can connect them to the switch on the pedal?

The reverse lights - DK Blue & LT Green wires are also located in the same connector as above from the auto harness? When making the connection to the trans, is there any polarity? It looks like the wires that come out from the 5spd are the same color...

I assume the TCC connector on my auto wire harness is unused?

I just thought of this because of you mentioning the differance in ECM... Can I even use the manual ECM w/ the auto wire harness? are the relivent wire pin-outs the same? Think I am going to post this specific question for the PFF menbers

Thanks again,
AL

nope - they are not.
but, what you can do is:
at the C500 connector, jump the yellow & purple wires - this closes the switch, so you can engage the starter all the time
under the dash, you can splice the yellow wire, and put the clutch switch "inline" to that yellow wire.
and, you can even use the left over yellow & purple wires from the rear to wire to the clutch switch, since the yellow & purple from the C500 to the tranny are now abandoned.

as mentioned above - the blue & green go to the backup switch on the tranny

and, the speedo - you just need to add some length to the lead

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: nope - they are not. but, what you can do is: at the C500 connector, jump the yellow & purple wires - this closes the switch, so you can engage the starter all the time under the dash, you can splice the yellow wire, and put the clutch switch "inline" to that yellow wire. and, you can even use the left over yellow & purple wires from the rear to wire to the clutch switch, since the yellow & purple from the C500 to the tranny are now abandoned. as mentioned above - the blue & green go to the backup switch on the tranny and, the speedo - you just need to add some length to the lead

What are you responding to when you say "nope - they are not"?
Also, I hear/read allot about the C500 connector; I do not know which connector it is. Is it one of the connectors on the ECU?

Is there already a yellow wire under the dash? If i cut it and put the clutch safety switch in-line (or in series), will something else lose power? I would have to imagin that yellow wire under the dash (if there is one there) is feeding/controlling something else other than being there for the clutch safety switch...

About the rear trunk release; how exactly do I solve this problem? I would prefer to have it deactivated when the key is not on so someone can't break-in and pop my trunk...

Thanks,
AL

the C500 is the connector which is near the battery. under it is the fusable links - which is also a job you should do (replace the fusable links) - if it never been done on your Fiero.

yes - there is a yellow wire under the dash. it is the "starter" wire - going from the igntion switch (key) to the C500 connector to the trans P/N switch, back to the C500, and the down to the starter

you can leave the trunk popper alone, and have it only work with the clutch in. other than that - best I can suggest is look at the wireing schematic, and see how to wire the relay to do what you want it to do. I think your siggestion is entirely possible - to have the relay active only with ignition on. and easy source would be the same feed which powers the radio.

Thanks again Pyrthian! The information you provided me is VERY helpfull...

"yes - there is a yellow wire under the dash. it is the "starter" wire - going from the igntion switch (key) to the C500 connector to the trans P/N switch, back to the C500, and the down to the starter" - Thank you for this; gives me a better understanding of what I need to do.

- The yellow wire under the dash, from the ignition switch going back; is it hot at all times? While key is on? Or while cranking?

- So going TO the P/N switch from the C500 would be yellow? Going back to the C500 from the P/N would be purple? and would puple be the color going down to the starter?

Thank you thank you thank you...

AL

Hey ALJR,

The yellow wire from the ignition is only hot in START (or cranking)

As for the circuit, it is yellow from the ignition switch, to C500, and then to the transmission connector (pin F). Then the purple wire at the transmission connector (pin G), runs directly from there to the starter solenoid. It doesn't go back through C500 on the automatic harness.

So if you wanted to wire up a neutral safety switch to your new clutch pedal, all you'd have to do is cut the yellow wire under the dash, and hook up both ends to opposite terminals of a normally open clutch pedal switch. By depressing the pedal, you'd re-establish the contact between the two ends of the yellow wire. The switches are plentiful in the scrap yards.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: Hey ALJR, The yellow wire from the ignition is only hot in START (or cranking) As for the circuit, it is yellow from the ignition switch, to C500, and then to the transmission connector (pin F). Then the purple wire at the transmission connector (pin G), runs directly from there to the starter solenoid. It doesn't go back through C500 on the automatic harness. So if you wanted to wire up a neutral safety switch to your new clutch pedal, all you'd have to do is cut the yellow wire under the dash, and hook up both ends to opposite terminals of a normally open clutch pedal switch. By depressing the pedal, you'd re-establish the contact between the two ends of the yellow wire. The switches are plentiful in the scrap yards.

Ahhhh... Thank you

I already have the switch on the pedal, as I got the whole assembly from a doner car...

As mentioned before about the trunk release and having to depress my clutch to get power to the switch. You mentioned the yellow wire is "only hot in START (or cranking)"; wouldn't that mean I would have to turn the key to crank (start position) to provide power for the trunk release? Or am I missing something here...

Even the Haynes manual shows the trunk relay after the ignition switch and before the C500 connector. They show the trunk release at connector S207 (where is that!) for the auto and nothing for the manual!! Seem I would have to hook up my clutch switch AFTER this S207 connector?

I dont remember the specifics of the trunk popper relay - all I know is I just jumped mine, to be active at all times.
but - yes - I do think you can have it only active with ignition being on fairly easily.
I made mine always active, because I plan on getting keyless entry w/trunk popper

quote Originally posted by ALJR: As mentioned before about the trunk release and having to depress my clutch to get power to the switch. You mentioned the yellow wire is "only hot in START (or cranking)"; wouldn't that mean I would have to turn the key to crank (start position) to provide power for the trunk release? Or am I missing something here... Even the Haynes manual shows the trunk relay after the ignition switch and before the C500 connector. They show the trunk release at connector S207 (where is that!) for the auto and nothing for the manual!! Seem I would have to hook up my clutch switch AFTER this S207 connector?

You can hook up your park neutral switch under the dash along any part of the yellow wire between the ignition switch and splice S207 (which is in the main wire harness left of the steering wheel), or anywhere after S207 as long as it's not the branch that leads from the splice to the trunk relay. Here's why: the yellow wire is actually used for two different purposes on the automatic. In one case, it's used as a 12V conduit to send power to the starter solenoid when the the ignition is in START. Any other time, the yellow wire is used as the ground circuit for the trunk relay's solenoid. The trunk relay splices into the yellow wire at splice S207, and uses the path through the starter solenoid as a grounding point.

You have nothing else to do but splice into the yellow wire for your clutch switch, and your trunk popper will work.

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 07-28-2009).]

Ok, here is what I have to do (and correct me if I am wrong)... BTW, thanks guys for being so patient with me

UNDER THE DASH - Wire the yellow wire in series with the clutch switch; but do not use the yellow lead going to the trunk switch. I would have to imagin the yellow wire going to the trunk switch is a smaller guage wire? I will have to press the clutch in order for the trunk switch to see its ground... BTW, where is the trunk relay located?

THE GEAR SELECTOR CONNECTOR - Solder the purple and yellow wires together.

THE GEAR SELECTOR CONNECTOR - Run the dark blue and light green wires to the Reverse Light switch on the 5spd.

THE GEAR SELECTOR CONNECTOR - The orange/black stripe and the black/white stripe wires for the auto's nutural/park grounding are not used w/ the 5spd ECM and nothing needs to be dun to them?

THE TCC HARNESS CONNECTOR for the auto - None of these wires are used and can be covered/secured out of the way?

Did I leave anything out?

Thanks again,
AL

pretty much it
tho - I dont remember the specifics of the trunk switch relay - but - it is under the dash

gotta get some work cloths on and see what I can get accomplished today

quote Originally posted by ALJR: UNDER THE DASH - Wire the yellow wire in series with the clutch switch; but do not use the yellow lead going to the trunk switch. I would have to imagin the yellow wire going to the trunk switch is a smaller guage wire? I will have to press the clutch in order for the trunk switch to see its ground... BTW, where is the trunk relay located?

At the splice under the dash, the yellow wire branches to the tiny soleinoid in the trunk RELAY, not the switch, & not the big trunk solenoid at the decklid. The yellow wire is the same gauge on all branches. Once you've finished, you will NOT have to press the clutch in order to open the trunk. The relay is located behind the instrument panel, near the heater controls. I'll scan in and post a circuit drawing for you later this evening so you can better visualize what's going on.

Perfect timing as I'm in the process of doing the same thing.
Thanks for the info guys.

A few comments:

quote Originally posted by ALJR: THE GEAR SELECTOR CONNECTOR - Run the dark blue and light green wires to the Reverse Light switch on the 5spd. THE GEAR SELECTOR CONNECTOR - The orange/black stripe and the black/white stripe wires for the auto's nutural/park grounding are not used w/ the 5spd ECM and nothing needs to be dun to them? THE TCC HARNESS CONNECTOR for the auto - None of these wires are used and can be covered/secured out of the way?

BTW, the reverse switch is not polarity-sensitive.

The orange/black and black/white wires are used to tell the ECM when the auto tranny is in gear, so it can bump up the idle speed. That isn't used with the manual tranny. So those wires can be deleted.

The wires going to the TCC solenoid can be deleted, since the manual tranny doesn't have one. But with the manual tranny, that electrical circuit is used to activate the upshift light.

Here's the circuit. I've added in where you should splice into the yellow wire for your clutch switch, and also shown where you need to throw in another hidden trunk popper switch if you want to prevent just anybody reaching in and hiting the OEM switch and getting into your trunk. You should really make this hidden switch a "momentary ON" type switch (spring loaded to OFF). You'll need to press both the OEM switch and your hidden switch at the same time for it to pop. You wouldn't want to accidentally pop your trunk while rolling down the highway so two switches is a good idea. GM used a similar arrangement by requiring the parking brake to be applied before the dash button would pop the trunk in stock trim for the manual transmission cars, although they used a different circuit logic.

Thank you guys! ONCE AGAIN, you folks amaize me with you knowledge of the Fiero..

I am a member on many forums; from mortocycle (RC51), Ford truck (F150) and my hobby (RC nitro cars). PFF members are some of the nicest, most respectfull (tolerating my ignorance) public forum members I have EVER encountered! I hope to possible meet up with some of you in the future, maybe at a New England Fiero meet??

Thank you again for all the help. I do not know where this project would be w/o you guys!

AL

Another quick question...

On the clutch pedal, there are two electrical switches??
One of the switches looks like it is activated once the clutch pedal is fully pressed (or almost fully pressed). This, I would assume is the natural safety switch?
The second switch looks like it is activated immediately once you start to press the clutch pedal? What is this second switch for?

Could anyone explain how to wire in the up-shift light on the instrument cluster?
I know (or think) its the tan/blk wire from the ECM? Is this wire located anywhere in my passenger compartment? My wire harness is for the automatic trans, not the 5spd...

Thanks again for the help,
AL

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 08-05-2009).]

quote Originally posted by ALJR: Another quick question... On the clutch pedal, there are two electrical switches?? One of the switches looks like it is activated once the clutch pedal is fully pressed (or almost fully pressed). This, I would assume is the natural safety switch? The second switch looks like it is activated immediately once you start to press the clutch pedal? What is this second switch for? Could anyone explain how to wire in the up-shift light on the instrument cluster? I know (or think) its the tan/blk wire from the ECM? Is this wire located anywhere in my passenger compartment? My wire harness is for the automatic trans, not the 5spd... Thanks again for the help, AL

Cruise control is the second set on the clutch switch...

I don't think your wire harness has an up shift light wire. You will have to add one.
The auto trans wire harnesses didn't have the up shift light wire. With a good schematic, you can wire one up. It is a Tan wire with Black Stripe.
On the 18 pin Clear connector (RH side) of your dash gauges, it would be wired through pin 1.
On the ECM harness, it would be the C2 (Blue/Black) connector pin A7.

[This message has been edited by IFLYR22 (edited 08-05-2009).]

quote Originally posted by IFLYR22: Cruise control is the second set on the clutch switch... I don't think your wire harness does not have an up shift light wire. You will have to add one. The auto trans wire harnesses didn't have the up shift light wire. With a good schematic, you can wire one up.

Cruise control! Uggg, more wires to run... Could you explain there function in relation the the CC? Also what color wire and where do they go?

I have no problem running a new wire from the ECM for the up-shift light; but was hoping there may be a wire already in my passenger compartment (prefforably near the instrument cluster) that I could use...

I don't have a stock Cruise Control, so I doubt I will be of much help.

Bump...

The wires from the '88 clutch pedal switch that are used by the cruise control are yellow and brown on cars that are originally equipped with the manual trans. But since yours is originally an auto, here's what you have to do:

-Locate the brown wire coming from your brake pedal switch;
- cut it several inches away from the switch, and splice an extension wire from the half that is still connected to the brake pedal, and run it to the clutch switch pin A.
- then splice a new extension onto the other end of the brown wire that disappears under the dash, and connect it to the clutch switch pin B.
- That's it.

As for the shift light, all you need to do is:
- remove the cigar lighter and trim panel to expose the ALDL connector;
- unscrew the ALDL connector so you can pull it out somewhat;
- splice a new wire to the tan/black wire going to pin F of the ALDL;
- lead that new wire under the armrest to the instrument panel connector pin that IFLYR22 mentioned;
--button things up and you're done!

Good Luck.

(edited wire color from grey to yellow in first sentence)

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 08-07-2009).]

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: The wires from the '88 clutch pedal switch that are used by the cruise control are grey and brown on cars that are originally equipped with the manual trans. But since yours is originally an auto, here's what you have to do: -Locate the brown wire coming from your brake pedal switch; - cut it several inches away from the switch, and splice an extension wire from the half that is still connected to the brake pedal, and run it to the clutch switch pin A. - then splice a new extension onto the other end of the brown wire that disappears under the dash, and connect it to the clutch switch pin B. - That's it. As for the shift light, all you need to do is: - remove the cigar lighter and trim panel to expose the ALDL connector; - unscrew the ALDL connector so you can pull it out somewhat; - splice a new wire to the tan/black wire going to pin F of the ALDL; - lead that new wire under the armrest to the instrument panel connector pin that IFLYR22 mentioned; --button things up and you're done! Good Luck.

Thank you Bloozberry!
So on the CC, I am basically putting the clutch pedel switch in-series with the brake pedel switch (brown wire)?
Thanks for the location of that tan/blk wire at the ALDL!

That's correct, the brake and clutch pedals are wired in series for the CC. Both the brake pedal and clutch pedal switches are normally closed... that is, they complete the electrical path when the pedals are not depressed. As soon as you depress either one, the applicable switch breaks the circuit and turns off the cruise control.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: That's correct, the brake and clutch pedals are wired in series for the CC. Both the brake pedal and clutch pedal switches are normally closed... that is, they complete the electrical path when the pedals are not depressed. As soon as you depress either one, the applicable switch breaks the circuit and turns off the cruise control.

Thank you Bloozberry!
Once again, you have come to my rescue

Little more help regarding this matter...

I am under the dash now, I removed the cover from under the steering colum and started to look for the appropriate wire to alter...

What I found is the following (I belive the previous owner had an alarm or something):

- There is a relay hanging, or is now hanging since I removed the plastic cover. This relay has three wires; Black w/ white stripe, Gey w/ black stripe and a large guage yellow wire that has been cut (not going anywhere). I assume this is the trunk relay? Where is the large guage yellow supposed to go? Also, where is this relay supposed to be secured?

- While looking for the large guage yellow wire that I need to tie in to the nutural safety switch... I found a large guage yellow wire that exits from the connector above the steering colum (between the colum and bottom of dash). This yellow wire travels a few inches then is spliced (looks soldered & heat shrinked) to a red wire of the same guage; then it travels into the taped loom... Thought this wire was supposed to be yellow all the way back to the C500? Is this yellow wire/red wire the wire I am supposed to use for the nutural switch? Is the above cut yellow wire from the realy also supposed to be spliced at this point?

Thanks for any help,
AL

[This message has been edited by ALJR (edited 08-11-2009).]

Regarding the previous question...

While looking at the C500 connector, I only see one yellow wire... According to the wireing diagram further up on this page, it shows yellow wire going into C500 and yellow going out to the gear selector switch... With that being said, I am assuming on my 88gt the yellow/red wire splice under my dash is the correct wire to splice the neutural switch to...

Any thought on this?

AL

quote Originally posted by ALJR: - There is a relay hanging. This relay has three wires; Black w/ white stripe, Gey w/ black stripe and a large guage yellow wire that has been cut (not going anywhere). I assume this is the trunk relay? Where is the large guage yellow supposed to go? Also, where is this relay supposed to be secured?

Yep. That's the trunk release relay. The large yellow wire splices onto the large yellow wire that runs from the Start terminal on the ignition switch to C500 pin A4 and then to the large yellow wire on pin F of the automatic gear selector switch. On the automatic, that wire serves double duty as the park/neutral circuit and as the ground circuit for the small solenoid in the trunk release relay. You can hook up the loose end of the yellow wire from the trunk relay to any grounding point and it'll serve the same purpose. The relay is supposed to be attached behind the instrument panel on the RH side of the steering column support.

quote Originally posted by ALJR: - While looking for the large guage yellow wire that I need to tie in to the nutural safety switch... I found a large guage yellow wire that exits from the connector above the steering colum (between the colum and bottom of dash). This yellow wire travels a few inches then is spliced (looks soldered & heat shrinked) to a red wire of the same guage; then it travels into the taped loom... Thought this wire was supposed to be yellow all the way back to the C500? Is this yellow wire/red wire the wire I am supposed to use for the nutural switch? Is the above cut yellow wire from the realy also supposed to be spliced at this point?

Sounds as though the PO may have separated the neutral safety circuit from the trunk relay circuit (maybe because it burnt) by running a new red wire all the way back to C500, or at least a section of it anyways. To see for sure, you'll have to check the continuity of the wire at the yellow/red splice to the yellow wire at the tranny switch using a multimeter set to ohms. It should read zero ohms if they're the same wire, and infinite ohms if they're not the same circuit.

Thanks Bloozberry! Knew you would stop by

I have attached some pics of my C500 Connector... The red wire under the dash that the yellow wire is spliced to tooks to be factory. It is all taped and inside the loom... It also looks factory back at the C500 connection... I will test the continuity through the line...

The wires that come from the ignition switch; do they go to a cennector before running to C500? I have a plastic wire connector right above the steering colum under the dash. Looks like the wires from the ignition go to this connector. The yellow wire comming out from this connector is the wire that is soldered to the red wire (with heat shrink tubing over it... I take it in all your past experiances w/ Fieros, this wire has been yellow all the way back to C500?

That's right, the connector on the steering column is for the ignition switch. Unfortunately I can't find a schematic of the physical layout of it, however here's what the pins are supposed to connect to:

A: brown - from RUN and ACCY terminals to wiper fuse and radio fuse;
B2: red - fusible link A (ignition switch power supply);
B3: red - fusible link A (ignition switch power supply);
I1: pink - from RUN, Bulb Test, and Start terminals to Ignition coil (through fusible link H), and to the following fuses Turn/B/U, ECM/Ign, Gages, TBI Inj1, and TBI Inj2;
I3: oragne - from RUN terminal to Window Cct Brkr, FanE, and Htr/A/C fuses
S: yellow - from START terminal to starter solenoid

The yellow wire would not have been spliced onto the red wire at the factory. I'm thinking that he may have cut one of the two red wires to either B3 or B2 at the ignition switch to use as a new wire to the starter solenoid since both of these red wires go there anyways through C500. Then he would have switched the cut red wire pin hole in C500 to match the pin hole of the yellow wire leading back to the starter solenoid.

So first check to make sure that you have two big red wires on the igntion connector. Next, when you get around to disconnecting C500 to probe the other end of the red wire spliced onto the yellow wire, let me know which hole the red wire has been inserted into. It may help in figuring out what the PO has done.

Bloozberry, man do I owe you a beer!

I removed some of the tape around the loom from under the dash; sure enough the PO was monkeying around under there... Looks like he may have had a remote start or an alarm...

Under the tape... The yellow wire that was spliced to a red wire (that was visible), was then again spliced back to the yellow... Looks like the PO used a 4" section of red because he did not have yellow wire... Put the DMM on the yellow wire, ran a wire long wire to C500 and it has continuity... So I am all good with this respect...

About the cut yellow wire on the trunk relay, the wire that the PO left disconnected. I know you said I can just ground it out. But where is its proper splice location? Or better yet, where is there a switched ground (only grounded when the key is on) under the dash I could use?

Thanks again Bloozberry, your the Fiero neurologist!

AL

I drink Alexander Keiths... is that available in Massachusetts?

The factory location for the yellow wire splice is in the ignition switch wire loom, several inches back from the ignition switch connector. So follow the wires from the ign sw connector (they should run towards the driver's door-ish and then turn towards the front of the car. They'll mate up with the wires coming from the super long and narrow connector under the steering column. You'll have to unravel the tape from that point heading towards the front of the dash and you'll find the yellow wires spliced together a few inches in.

That, by the way won't give you a switched ground though. If you want to run it the same way the factory ran it on the manual transmission cars, you'd have to run the yellow wire on the relay to the parking brake lever switch. The switch is grounded only with the parking brake on, so that means you'll have to have it on to pop the trunk. Although I'm not sure if the automatics originally had the switch in the e-brake lever, I know you can get a new one from the Fiero Store for a couple of bucks.

Ha Ha.. Nope, we have Sam Adams down here If you ever come to bean town, let me know; I definatly owe you a Sam Adams...

In the process now of soldering in the clutch safety switch. Everything looks perfect so far...

Also going to solder in the cruse control wire to the clutch switch today also...

One thing I noticed about the cruse control switch on the clutch is, it looks like it also has a vacuum connection molded in with it right next to the electrical terminals... Is this a vacuum line? Or just the way the switch looks??

Thanks,
AL

It's not a vacuum line. Not sure what it is, but all the pneumatics for the system remain in the engine bay.

quote Originally posted by Bloozberry: It's not a vacuum line. Not sure what it is, but all the pneumatics for the system remain in the engine bay.

Thank you Sir!

Got it wired and all tested ok!

Thanks again for all your help,
AL