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mixing hot and cold= HP? by White 84 SE
Started on: 12-03-2008 08:29 PM
Replies: 50
Last post by: White 84 SE on 09-24-2009 07:26 PM
Fierology
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Report this Post12-09-2008 11:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierologySend a Private Message to FierologyDirect Link to This Post
Speaking of efficient cars, the Karma: http://www.fiskerautomotive.com/

Another idea:
While thinking about that car (above) and about modern hybrids in general, I thought, w/ all these electrical components we're adding, why not replace our standard disk brakes with the regenerative braking systems hybrids use. We, meaning Fiero owners, are always talking about slotted rotors, vented rotors, cross-drilled rotors, etc, all in an effort to dissipate unwanted heat... All that heat can be used if we incorporate this technology into our cars.

It'll need lots of R&D, but I think it's perfectly doable. As the car's rear-wheel drive, it'd be easier in the front, but it could work in the back too. All the energy will be captured, and no messy brake fluid.

But now the difficult, part: engineering it and getting it to function flawlessly. And, for my purposes, I still want this to feel like a Fiero. I don't want to feel like I'm driving some sort of spaceship!

As hybrid cars become more common it'll only become easier to get our hands on a wrecked one from which to scavange the braking system. Only these cars are a big mystery to me. I want someone to come out w/ a really comprehensive book on the Fundamentals of Hybrid Auto Mechanics, a hybrid version of the one that came out years ago: The Fundamentals of Auto Mechanics

-Michael

(EDIT: clarification)

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 12-09-2008).]

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fieroboom
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Report this Post12-09-2008 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroboomClick Here to visit fieroboom's HomePageSend a Private Message to fieroboomDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierology:

Initial impression: I like it a lot. Now I want to go and think about it.

Q1: Are there any consequences of a humid system that brings the O(2) and H(2)? The hot water will evaporate as well as dissociate.
Q2: What method is used of keeping O(2) and H(2) separate. (Am I right that they form at opposite electrodes and are therefore easy to keep separate?)
Q3: The IC drives the wheels? What does the hybrid electric motor do? ...supplemental?
Q4: Oh yeah, why does it keep electrolyzing when you stop? Is this for a limitied time until the heat in the water tank is expended?

Comment: The more concentrated your electrolyte is, the hotter your system can be w/o over-evaporating/boiling. The hotter it is, the more efficient it is.
Also, I believe even platinum electrodes need to be cleaned every once in a while. If this is correct, the system should be designed such that the electrodes can be cleaned easily.

Off to home for me, sounds good!
-Michael


1 mole of distilled water produces 1 mole of H and .5 mole of O2. It's possible to concentrate the H in the electrolyte with Sulfuric Acid (H2SO4) in something like a 30% solution, but then you run into a few issues...
- You pretty much need a beaker for it, and a glass "gas tank" on a car ain't happnin'
- You also introduce sulfur gas, which is pretty much "mustard gas"... So unless we're driving the car through the middle east...
Plus, I wouldn't even trust myself with attempting to pour sulfuric acid in my tank...

Anyway, I think the tank needs to be made from aluminum or stainless steel. I *think* (not tested...) that stainless steel can be used as an electrode itself...
Here is a really crude drawing of my idea. The tank itself would be an electrode, and would be pressurized with the production of O2, which would most likely be humidified as you suggested above. Using the pressure, you could pump the O2 through an evaporator of sorts, and maybe use in conjunction with the H for fuel. In my experiment, I didn't use the O2, so I'm not sure how well it will work.

Here's an extremely crude drawing:



Legend:
Green: O2
Purple: H
Black: Tank
Orange: Collectors
Blue: Electrolyte
Red: Electrodes


By the way, we have completely hijacked this thread... should we start a new one to continue discussion?

[This message has been edited by fieroboom (edited 12-09-2008).]

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Fierology
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Report this Post12-10-2008 12:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierologySend a Private Message to FierologyDirect Link to This Post
I PM'd White 84 SE to see what he thinks. Until I hear from him, I'll continue here.

I'll write more later, 'cause I've not much time right now.
But I want to point out that the tank really should be non-metalic. I think the best material is HDPE (high density polyethylene). Gas tanks come in this material. It's a very strong, stable, and tough material. I have a bottle of muriatic acid in my garage in an age-old HDPE container, and it's still contained. And we want our electrodes to be very non-reactive. Inherant to the electrolysis system is an acidic environment, which is inherantly antagonistic to metals. The best metals for electrodes are silver, gold and platinum, the best being platinum as it's the least reactive. And we don't really want dissimilar electrodes as they'll galvanize (react by conduction of electrons though the electrolyte), as I understand it.

How come an acidic solution? What about some salt? I really am not sure what solute would be best, but I think an acid, especially a strong one like H2SO4 will shorten the life of the electrodes, as it will oxidize them.

More later, I've got to go now.

-Michael

EDIT: i learned how to do real subscripts

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 12-13-2008).]

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Report this Post12-10-2008 12:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroboomClick Here to visit fieroboom's HomePageSend a Private Message to fieroboomDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierology:

I PM'd White 84 SE to see what he thinks. Until I hear from him, I'll continue here.

I'll write more later, 'cause I've not much time right now.
But I want to point out that the tank really should be non-metalic. I think the best material is HDPE (high density polyethylene). Gas tanks come in this material. It's a very strong, stable, and tough material. I have a bottle of muriatic acid in my garage in an age-old HDPE container, and it's still contained. And we want our electrodes to be very non-reactive. Inherant to the electrolysis system is an acidic environment, which is inherantly antagonistic to metals. The best metals for electrodes are silver, gold and platinum, the best being platinum as it's the least reactive. And we don't really want dissimilar electrodes as they'll galvanize (react by conduction of electrons though the electrolyte), as I understand it.

How come an acidic solution? What about some salt? I really am not sure what solute would be best, but I think an acid, especially a strong one like H(2)SO(4) will shorten the life of the electrodes, as it will oxidize them.

More later, I've got to go now.

-Michael


I agree, but have you seen the frame on my build thread?? Heh, I hate salt!
I think that in order to make it's ease of use as high as possible, we should start with an electrolyte of only distilled water on a large scale, and see if it has the capability to produce the capacity needed. The whole point of introducing the heat was to accelerate the process using simply water. Having to mix an electrolyte is either going to be as much (or more) of a headache than mixing 2-cycle fuel for a 15 gallon tank, or it's going to take much more R&D to introduce an auto-mixer.

I agree with the tank idea... I completely forgot about the electroplating effect, thanks!

Anyone in the southeast have a running engine they wanna donate to research? Maybe I can talk the awesome guys at The Fiero Factory out of one... hehe
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Fierology
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Report this Post12-10-2008 01:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for FierologySend a Private Message to FierologyDirect Link to This Post
Only problem is that distilled water isn't an electrolyte. Some solute, such as a salt, is necessary for any electrolysis to take place. The salt will be contained, so it shouldn't be a problem. (i had horrible rust problems too!) About mixing, unlike 2-stroke oil, the electrolytic solute doesn't get used up. It just stays in the solution. As long as we keep the tank full all the time it'll always be a good concentration. We may have a problem of caking electrolyte on the electrodes and tank walls. hmmm. so many things to consider.

more later...


Michael


(EDIT: learning smileys)

[This message has been edited by Fierology (edited 12-10-2008).]

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Report this Post12-10-2008 01:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroboomClick Here to visit fieroboom's HomePageSend a Private Message to fieroboomDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierology:

Only problem is that distilled water isn't an electrolyte. Some solute, such as a salt, is necessary for any electrolysis to take place. The salt will be contained, so it shouldn't be a problem. (i had horrible rust problems too!) About mixing, unlike 2-stroke oil, the electrolytic solute doesn't get used up. It just stays in the solution. As long as we keep the tank full all the time it'll always be a good concentration. We may have a problem of caking electrolyte on the electrodes and tank walls. hmmm. so many things to consider.

more later...


Michael


(EDIT: learning smileys)



I just noticed I failed to answer your question about acidic electrolyte... The reason I chose that side of the pH scale is because some alkalines, such as KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) have a tendency to almost "freeze" at higher temps than an acidic solution, according to research I'm doing. Looks like you could also use NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide).
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White 84 SE
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Report this Post12-10-2008 08:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for White 84 SESend a Private Message to White 84 SEDirect Link to This Post
No way dudes! Go on, I am fascinated! Besides this what I was getting at, it's only that it's been looked into and you guys are showing the way. I will sit back satisfied as heck.....and learn a thing or two! Thanks!!!

------------------
84 2.5L Holley TBI Manual Trans White

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Report this Post12-10-2008 08:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroboomClick Here to visit fieroboom's HomePageSend a Private Message to fieroboomDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by White 84 SE:

No way dudes! Go on, I am fascinated! Besides this what I was getting at, it's only that it's been looked into and you guys are showing the way. I will sit back satisfied as heck.....and learn a thing or two! Thanks!!!



Good, the lack of response was beginning to concern me... If I ever post anything you don't understand, or want more material to read, just let me know. If I think it's unbelievable or hard to follow, I usually post references, but sometimes I don't.
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Report this Post09-23-2009 02:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for White 84 SESend a Private Message to White 84 SEDirect Link to This Post
What happened this thread was going good?
Anyway here's a pic of my new yet to be installed fuel heater. By the way, there are 2 unused coolant ports convieniently located on the intake manifold.....!

Any safety ideas? Will be trying it out this week.

------------------
84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 09-23-2009).]

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Dracor
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Report this Post09-24-2009 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DracorSend a Private Message to DracorDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by White 84 SE:

Any safety ideas? Will be trying it out this week.


Do it away from structures.
Have good venting.
Have an appropriate fire extinguisher handy.
Nomex clothes is a good idea.
If you have a slow vapor leak, it can pool in place then you have a nice fireball when it lites.
And most of all, Video it!

------------------
'84 3800SC, XP cam, 3.2 pully, HPTuners, N* TB, 4sp, SPEC 3+ clutch, Aluminium flywheel, pacesetter headers, F355 body kit, weight reduction

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White 84 SE
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Report this Post09-24-2009 07:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for White 84 SESend a Private Message to White 84 SEDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dracor:


Do it away from structures.
Have good venting.
Have an appropriate fire extinguisher handy.
Nomex clothes is a good idea.
If you have a slow vapor leak, it can pool in place then you have a nice fireball when it lites.
And most of all, Video it!

Ha ha ha! Videoing will really make it safe....I never seem to get good pictures.
------------------
84 Duke, Holley TBI, Manual Trans 4.10, CompuCam, White

[This message has been edited by White 84 SE (edited 09-24-2009).]

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