I have a built 3.2 turbo in my car but I have bought a 3800sc which is sitting in the garage.
With gas prices as they are and as they will be in the future I am wondering if maybe I should look into doing an ecotec swap instead.
What are some REAL differences in terms of gas mileage?
Discuss the differences between these two swaps in terms of difficulty.

Jeff

There was a guy on this forum who did an Ecotec swap a while back. If you go through the archives you'll be able to locate him and ask. As for the 3800SC swap , I've read reports of 22 to 30 HwyMPG . The Ecotec is a new generation high efficiency four cylinder engine that provides 205HP in supercharged form but mileage is still very reliant on FDR, weight, rolling resistance,& car design.

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87GT - with 3800SC Series III engine, 4T65eHD
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

you would get similar mileage I bet, maybe 38-40 with the ecotec in a great tuned setup, but you can still net mid 30's with the 3800, and have a load more power on tap.

Either supercharged ecotec or supercharged 3800, your getting <20mpg if your foots in it.

go with the ecotec, you can an awful lot of hp with out much work and it is gms global 4 cyl with much factory support.

i have a turbo 2.2 ecotec in my 86 gt .i get 30mpg around town and 40 at steady hwy speeds .sometimes i wish i hadnt turbocharged it but overall i am happy with it .it is running low 14 sec 1/4 mile at 98 mph .the main advantage is the light weight that improves the handling .and i just happen to like DOHC all aluminum motors .but if you already have a 3800sc that will get pretty good mileage ,is it worth the extra time money and effort to get another 8 mpg ? i did find my eco swap easy to do ,initial swap took about 6 weeks .but thats the way i did it , other people are working on swaps much more elaborate than mine .

How much did your ecotec swap cost you in total (parts and all)? I am really interested in doing an ecotec swap but the military doesn't pay much and I am getting married in August and she is a student and generates nothing but debt :S

Once my LS4 is done or before I am going to start working on an EcoTech swap into an 88 Coue 5 speed. I plan on useing the Izusu 5 speed and a NA EchoTech motor into the 88 Coupe. I need something for going to work that is going to get 40 MPG or better with gas going up and up and up.

quote plan on useing the Izusu 5 speed and a NA EchoTech motor into the 88 Coupe

Adapter plate?

Doesn't the ecotec practically "bolt-in" - well almost? I remember a thread, where an ecotec LSJ + Getrag F-35 was used, and the donor car axles fit. Didn't someone make mounts too?

If you have an engine, it might make more sense to use it, if it's in good condition.

Maybe it would help you decide if you drive an Ecotec LNF, LSJ, or other Ecotec flavor you like powering the donor car. (Just imagine it driving the rear wheels instead of the front. ) It might help you decide.

I'm still hoping that my engine will last until I have money saved up for an LNF 260hp/260ft torque, or a Vr6 type engine. :dreaming:

if you use the 2.2 eco and the f23 getrag it comes with and the stock cavalier /sunfire/cobalt rubber mounts ,all you have to do is fab up sme simple brackets to weld to the fiero cradle .stock manual tranny fiero axles fit right in to the 5 speed f23 .roger thelin of florida makes adapter kits for the transaxle to use the stock fiero shifter with the f23 .my original install cost 1200.00 .(1000.00 for all the drivetrain and electrical and then another 200 for fuel pump and dash cluster ) .you need an adapter plate to use any of the stock fiero trannys .

quote Originally posted by wftb: i have a turbo 2.2 ecotec in my 86 gt .i get 30mpg around town and 40 at steady hwy speeds .sometimes i wish i hadnt turbocharged it but overall i am happy with it .it is running low 14 sec 1/4 mile at 98 mph .the main advantage is the light weight that improves the handling .and i just happen to like DOHC all aluminum motors .but if you already have a 3800sc that will get pretty good mileage ,is it worth the extra time money and effort to get another 8 mpg ? i did find my eco swap easy to do ,initial swap took about 6 weeks .but thats the way i did it , other people are working on swaps much more elaborate than mine .

This is a great info on an excellent swap. Low 14's on 2.2L and 40hwy MPG is absolutely amazing. Even 2008 hybrid vehicles can't achieve that. I was considering doing a EcotecSC swap but the support for PCM editing and the drivetrain issues have me concerned. Plus Ecotec SC's don't run cheap. You apparently have these issues solved and my hats off to ya!
I'd bet that if you set up a website outlining this swap you'd have a lot of interest.

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87GT - with 3800SC Series III engine, 4T65eHD
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

There's no substitution for displacement. Cars get mileage when they don't struggle to pull themselves down the road. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that a 3800SC would get <20 no matter how you drive it.

http://www.roadandtrack.com...id=9&article_id=6704

Ecotec SS review. Wonder what the gas mileage of that engine would be in a Fiero.

I'm still a newbie to dyno charts, but could dyno charts of the Ecotec LNF, be compared to the 3800SC? I'd be curious where each engine makes it's peak power, and how "peppy" they feel. (or do dyno charts not tell that story, and one could only find out once driving the installed engine?)

Either way, I'm happy we're getting more options for swaps. As some engines will be harder to find (or pass through CA emissions) other engines will appear. So to speak keep the door revolving for future generations of Fiero drivers. (I'm still holding out for the "Mr. Fusion" powered Fiero swap. 2020, or so. Instant torque of electric motors. )

my swap thread is called 'ecotec swap ' .also check out the thread :' ecotec swap :has anyone ever actually completed one ?'
as far as my mileage goes , i dont drive real agressive but i dont baby it either .i check it all the time because i still have not fixed my gas guage .i have never seen below 30 miles to the american gallon (3.78 litres ) .i drive it all summer and save a lot on gas but i keep spending money on parts to get the turbo to work perfect .i may go back to NA next summer .i just want to go to the strip with it the way it is now and get a better time first .i was quite happy with the speed pre turbo but i couldnt resist fiddling with it .

quote Originally posted by FieroBrad87: There's no substitution for displacement. Cars get mileage when they don't struggle to pull themselves down the road. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that a 3800SC would get <20 no matter how you drive it.

You don't have one do you? lol

I have 2 ecotec motors and a car with a 3800SC in it and am in the process of buying all the parts needed to swap in the 3800SC, this thread makes me wonder.

quote Originally posted by FieroBrad87: There's no substitution for displacement. Cars get mileage when they don't struggle to pull themselves down the road. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that a 3800SC would get <20 no matter how you drive it.

HAH

I get 32-34 MPG highway with my 3.8SC, 23-24 city, and it runs a 13.6 at 99 MPH pretty much stock (only mods are those needed for installation)

IMO, theres no comparing the two, you want something that you have to dump the clutch from 6 grand to get going, or a car that will snap your head back from idle? Theres power to be made with the Ecotec, but fact of the matter is, you'd have more power stock with the 3.8SC than you're going to get out of that 4cyl. YES YES YES, I know you CAN make big numbers with the ecotec, but im talking in reality, what the average guy is going to be able to do, without spending a ton of money, and without going beyond daily drivability, what jeffndebrus would actually do with it himself.

Not to mention 3.8 mods are just about as cheap and plentiful as SBC, so dollar for dollar, the 3.8 is always going to be the faster, if you can accept the 6 MPG loss.

[This message has been edited by 86GT3.4DOHC (edited 04-28-2008).]

a DOD v8 would be the best bet for overall mileage and power of course with the appropiate trans

quote Originally posted by Erik: a DOD v8 would be the best bet for overall mileage and power of course with the appropiate trans

This is what I am hopring for but I dont think it still going to be at the MPH I need. I want a swap that gets 40 MPG plus on the highway but also has atleast 160 HP plus so it has a little get up and go. With the cost of gas going up, I have to find a DD that is cheaper to drive but also fun.

quote Originally posted by FieroBrad87: There's no substitution for displacement. Cars get mileage when they don't struggle to pull themselves down the road. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that a 3800SC would get <20 no matter how you drive it.

I guess what you intend to do with your vehicle governs the choice of engines. We are not building top fuel dragsters or funny cars here where displacement is the most critical specification. . Don Kraus with his 3800SC runs in the low 11's so does Earl Sessions. Other 3800 powered cars have run in the 9's. As for gas mileage w 3800 powered Fieros, about 25-30mpg is the norm, just ask around.
As for the Ecotec four ,the 2008 Cobalt SS has a supercharged version that puts out 260 HP in stock form. Its also light on gas if you are gentle with the foot. The point is not to underestimate what small efficient engines can be made to do using 2008 technology.

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87GT - with 3800SC Series III engine, 4T65eHD
87GT - 3.4L Turbocharged engine, modified TH125H
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I picked the LSJ ecotec for a couple of reasons, very light weight and tight packaging, factory speed upgrades, and lets not forget the beefy F35 transmission with a factory limited slip diff. Axles and all fit right in. The goal in the track car was to get it as light as possible but the transmission LSD made the choice for me.

I race with a guy here with an 88 and a N/A 3800 5 speed. Lotsa torque off the line. I'm not sure what kind of millage he gets but this is his fun car, not a daily driver.

I'm seeing complete drop outs (engine+trans+harness+ecu) from $3000-$2000 from the online recyclers now that the car has been out awhile.

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yellow 88 GT, not stock
white 88 notchie, 4 banger

A local guy built an Ecotec Fiero. I had the chance to drive it around. It had aftermarket cams, aftermarket header and it was NA (no boost)

It was not really much faster than a hopped up 2.8. My 4.9 would have eaten it for breakfast.


I imagine it probably got good gas mileage, but we really did not stay in touch long enough to find out any long term data for the car. The DOHC 4cyl made it a neat car to drive, but the only time it made decent power was in the upper rpm band. So you had to drive the car with your foot into it and the motor screaming just to have "fun" With the "larger" engines, 3800SC, 4.9 and such, I think you would be much better off.

However this is just my opinion of one Ecotec swap. Maybe someone out there has made a better one. Its possible they went too big on the cams and that is why this car did not run right.

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85GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Factory Stock.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: As for the Ecotec four ,the 2008 Cobalt SS has a supercharged version that puts out 260 HP in stock form. Its also light on gas if you are gentle with the foot. The point is not to underestimate what small efficient engines can be made to do using 2008 technology.

Not trying to be picky but that is the new Direct Injected Turbo variant of the Ecotec (also has a gen2 block), which should get pretty darn good mileage.

Anyone ever researched a dual-fueled 3800SC? (2 tanks, 87 octane and 93+ octane..) I've seen it done on a high-HP V8, where he actually had 2 seperate fuel injection systems including injectors that switched over at a certain % of throttle. But say you set up the appropriate valving so that the 3800SC fuel system (near the injectors) switched to 93 or so octane when you get near 0" vacuum so that the rails were primed with premium by the time you got into the boost... Or would it start knocking below the 0" point? (Am I wrong in thinking that 0" vacuum / boost on the SC engine = WOT on the N/A engine?) Along the same lines, how much water / alcohol would need to be injected along side 87 octane to prevent knock at moderate boost levels? Too much to be at all practical / kill all HP gains? Just thinking out loud, in anticipation of finally finishing my 3800 this spring amid $4+ gas.. I too have had Ecotec thoughts, but my Scion tC engine is bad enough having to do 4k+ to dig into any power..

i am partial to the ecotec. it was designed and built right.200 hp out of 2.2
is a snap300 hp is a little more work, but the stock crank is good for 500hp,
and the stock block and head is getting 1400hp at gm racing in pro fwd drag racing. more and more items are being made now, i just think this motor is a real winner.i am also hearing rumors that a well known racing team is putting a turbo ecotec into a daytona prototype.

I have my own personal solution to this dilema, I have three daughters so the eldest will eventually get a 3800SC Fiero, the other two being twins are going to help me build each of them a Fiero as well. One will get the eco-tech swap and the other an LS4 swap.
This plan is simple and even the wife can not argue with it well other then the oldest is only 8 and the twins are 6 so it will be a while before they are able to actually legally drive a car. This does how ever give me lots of time to build and enjoy each car myself before the kids get them. Dan

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Signature compliments of F-I-E-R-O
2003 3800SC series II powered
www.photosled.com/showgallery.php/cat/631
www.photosled.com/showgallery/cat/1583

quote Originally posted by Riceburner98: Anyone ever researched a dual-fueled 3800SC? (2 tanks, 87 octane and 93+ octane..) I've seen it done on a high-HP V8, where he actually had 2 seperate fuel injection systems including injectors that switched over at a certain % of throttle. But say you set up the appropriate valving so that the 3800SC fuel system (near the injectors) switched to 93 or so octane when you get near 0" vacuum so that the rails were primed with premium by the time you got into the boost... Or would it start knocking below the 0" point? (Am I wrong in thinking that 0" vacuum / boost on the SC engine = WOT on the N/A engine?) Along the same lines, how much water / alcohol would need to be injected along side 87 octane to prevent knock at moderate boost levels? Too much to be at all practical / kill all HP gains? Just thinking out loud, in anticipation of finally finishing my 3800 this spring amid $4+ gas.. I too have had Ecotec thoughts, but my Scion tC engine is bad enough having to do 4k+ to dig into any power..

Pointless....

the cost of running premium is fixed vs fuel cost, so 1 gallon of premium = .20 no matter how much gas costs. So, if you put 500 gallons of fuel through your fiero (roughly 15000 miles), your going to spend $100 on premium. I dont even drive half that a year, so at $50 a year even... i could care less.

I get BETTER gas mileage because of the premium, I can run significantly more timing at cruise, and see 3-7mpg better depending on driving conditions, that right there more than makes up for the cost of premium. Using that 15000 mile a year figure, 3mpg extra will save me near 50 gallons, which at current prices is almost double what the cost of running premium is, so running premium pays you back.

even stock , my 2.2 was faster than my built 2.8 .i was very happy with it ,and i did not have to rev the snot out of it to make power .first gear is so low that you just dont have to .to get my best time , i drop the clutch at 2000 , spin a bit and take off .the hardest part is avoiding the rev limiter on the 1-2 shift .but now that i have HP tuners , i have raised the redline to 6800 and problem solved .HP tuners supports the cav/sunfire 2.2 ,cobalt ss supercharged and sky/solstice turbo .i can also defeat the antitheft stuff with my HP tuners if i want .the eco is not a v6 or v8 type motor .but if you like a lightwt great handling car , it works for me .

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Pointless.... the cost of running premium is fixed vs fuel cost, so 1 gallon of premium = .20 no matter how much gas costs.

I'm moving to Michigan then! I wish it were still only $.20 more around here.. It's anywhere from $.30 to $.50 more depending on the station.. It used to be $.20 everywhere I went, but in the last year (at least around here) it's changed drastically and with no apparent reason other then "because they can". Like diesel - it takes less refining to make, right? But it's almost $1 more a gallon, why? Anyway... Didn't think of the timing issue, guess I need to do some tuning when I'm done. More fun stuff to learn! The guy with the dual-fuel V8 I believe was switching from 87 to something like 100+ race gas, so the savings would have been just a bit more.. If I drive the Fiero as I did my last swap, I'll likely do 20,000 miles per year not counting a trip to the 25th show, so @ $.30 a gallon and 25mpg it's about $240 a year, or $20 a month. I guess I can live with that for the amount of fun it returns!

Even at .40 extra, the costs are still small considering the gains you see out of premium.

I can get 92 for 10cents extra at a few "ghetto" stations around here that honestly most likely never sell a drop of premium.

Like I told you on the Phone Jeff, Get 2 more non running Notchies and install a 2.2 in one and your 3800 sc in the other. Then drive each one for a week and see how it works out Then you would have a V8 Fiero, Turbo 3.2 V6, 3800SC, and a Eco Fiero. That way you can be hated and loved by all the Fiero Factions

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*bump* to revisit this issue as more Ecotecs are around.

In terms of complexity how do these two compare?

I bought my wife a Saturn Sky Redline with the 2.0L/260-hp/260-lb-ft turbo DOHC 16-valve I-4 Ecotec. I want this engine for my swap after driving her car…there is no lag from the turbo, I describe it as a 4 wheel motorcycle because you can hit it and it responds without hesitation. The Redline goes 0-60 in 5.9 sec and the quarter mile in 14.3 sec @ 98.3 and has a curb weight of 3044 lb as compared to the Fiero at 2790 lb. I have not driven a 3800SC Fiero so I can’t compare the engines; I just want a swap that’s better than the old 2.8L. Now the hard part will be finding someone who can actually do the swap and make everything work

just some food for thought

My 2003 Pontiac Sunfire with a 5 speed f23 and 2.2 ecotec with a homemade turbo set up running 9 psi from a small t3 makes 210whp 236wtq runs 13.7 at 103 with a piss poor fwd traction of 2.2 60' on 195/65/15's. 100% stock block / Trans.

Mines not nearly as nicely set up as you can make them, mines incredibly low budget. The best part? I have over 100 track passes and 30k miles with this set up at the track the ecotec is a monster of reliabilty and you wont need to build anything bottom end wise unless your in the 280whp range. Even the stock 90k mile clutch.

My brothers cavalier with the same trans and engine but built bottom end is making 330whp and 350wtq with a mitsubishi 20g at 14-15 psi although he did shread a diff in one on radials the second f23 5 speed is holding up well. Hes up to 21 psi now but hasnt been back to the dyno yet.

Not that the 3800sc is a bad idea either both motors are awesome but the Ecotec in competent hands is a VERY potent 4 cylinder.

Getting back on topic, consider that both the Ecotec and 3800 have been built to make 800- 1000 HP. The decison comes down to what you wish to spend and want you expect to result. I would say that the supercharged and turbocharged Versions of the Ecotec and the 3800SC would perform in a similar fashion and the 3800N/A and Ecotec might have alot in common. The edge in weight goes to the Ectoec while the 3800 would probably have stronger bottom end power. The Ecotec would probably have the edge in gas mileage. The 3800 would appear to be the easier swap

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" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: The 3800 would appear to be the easier swap

Even with kits such as Roger Thelin's? I'm sure there are kits for the 3800SC as well, just too many choices of them. (good thing )

BlackThunderGT, have you had any issues with the LNF ecotec? Or would you consider that a trouble free motor? DI technology sounds scary at times when one thinks of the really high pressures the fuel is exposed to, at the same time that's the appeal the engine has to me..

I just never understood why EcoTec's can't rev' the way Honda engines do. (some have 9000rpm redlines) I understand that Honda's have no low end torque whatsoever. (I've driven S2000's and they really are gutless below 5000rpm. The owner said, one just has to get used to it being a different animal.. :shrug: ) I don't understand the rest of the technical differences. Could someone explain them to me? I thought the Ecotec is GM's answer to Honda engines. (both in reliability, parts interchangeablity and wide distribution)

The issue is a 3800 does not need a kit, and a ecotec does, so therefore it is easier.

Ecotec doesnt need anymore a kit then the 3800, donor motor and trans then make mounts an wire it sounds pretty much the same to me? maybe Im forgetting something?
3800 is certainly more documented of the two.

Personally I have no idea why anyone would use the stock Fiero trans with an Ecotec all it does is complicate things for an inferior transaxle ( mostly opinion based on knowing of quite a few surviving on engines over 300whp )

As for the guy who mentioned rev's the ecotecs are more then capable of being built to rev to 10k but for what they are ment for factory they just dont need to.
If anything the newer K series honda motors are designed slightly similar to the ecotec in that that dont rev as high ( not the SI 2.0 ) and they actually make some respectable torque.